Possible Asana or concentration after effects?
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I've been using the dragon, god and corpse postures for a good while and recently at least with the corpse position I've been regularly reaching 1hour and 20 mins - (the length of my re-looped Regardie Mantram tape that I listen to during asana)
The problem of course is not knowing sometimes just what the hell results are. Crowleys vague 'hints' of the results expected are hardly comprehensive although he would expect us of course to be undergoing 1 on 1 supervision, not muddling along by oneself...Here's a typical asana session at the moment in corpse position, (in dragon / god add 20 mins for the responses noted below).
Around 15 minutes my body tenses and then after 5 more minutes passes beyond my sensory perception, 10 minutes later it tenses harder and I adapt to the new sensations (note I don't 'relax the body - just let it alone and carry on concentrating on my brow chakra or listen to the mantram) and so on..
Around 30 minutes in I hit the 'rigor mortis' stage as alluded to by not a few writers, grit my teeth for however long it takes - (ten years or so subjectively) and then pass on to a blissful sensation of being body-less. This, at least, from what I've gleaned seems common.Recently I've started using Hyatts Energised Meditation body exercises (tiring the jaw, eyes, neck etc before meditation ) which may or may not have not made a big difference - opinions are most welcome :
Yesterday and last weeks asana's produced a new sensation - the neck, jaw, face , indeed the entire head went as rigid as the bodily effects that I had come to expect. The eyes felt under tremendous pressure and the whole neck and skull shook and I guess my frozen grimace was rivalled by Buddhist temple guardians.
In any case the first time it happened it let it continue till it ceased to bother me, the second time was much more intense and I felt as if actual physical damage was being done - I know very little about yoga, phisiology or medicine and decided discretion was my safest course and called a halt .Today I'm not only exhausted but after 12 hours sleep, square meals.pain killers I feel swine flu ill.
My brain is constantly sending bad moments from my life to the front of my conciousness at random and basically it feels like a having a bad lsd trip taken when one is suffering from food poisoning. Moving my eyes causes an auditory synapse response in my brain. It feels/sounds as if when i move my eyes cymbals are clashing. Also had a night of the most intense dreams.
In short, I feel feverish, depressed, tripping out and I have the muppets band behind my eyes. As they say on Agony Aunt's letters - 'is this normal??'Any suggestions or comments from your own experience or further reading I may do- apart from see a physician?
I'm not on medical insurance in the USA but my gf's sister is a Consultant MD at a push
Also something else I've noticed in my practices over the last months - during the concentration exercises I also get automatic rigidity and usually a lot quicker than by 'pure' asana alone too.
However with Pranayama I dont become 'stiff' I become ...more of a wave than an object - I seem to exist as the breath and 'flow' into the external reality, which then becomes an equal and opposite complementary force to mine own. Crowleys comments on the Adjustment card or 0=2 spring to mind .
This confuses me as I often hear becoming rigid as a by-product of Pranayama, maybe that happens during in more advanced exercises?
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I wrote a long answer and then lost it in a browser crash. Here are the bullet points:
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Automatic rigidity is a consequence of early stages of kundalini action. The classics relate this to pranayama, but I'm certain that's just because pranayama eventually triggers early stages of kundalini activity. (I always got this easiest during asana - though it first emerged strongest during asana in periods when I was also doing a lot of pranayama; and yes, concentration exercises can "push" it.)
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These practices shouldn't make you sick! Though any strong practice can break stuff loose inside of you that gives any number of symptoms, I've never encountered asana practice producing flu-like symptoms. It really sounds to me like you've got the flu - some sort of virus. (This isn't a medical opinion.) At least assess your physical condition and anything that could be producing the same symptoms, and treat them as you would if you weren't doing any kind of practices - take them at face value. (Have you an actual fever? If so, then al the other symptoms make total sense - you're sick!)
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Physical symptoms consequent to long persistence in a posture - besides the aches and pains that can happen as you are getting used to it - are usually (1) no particular after affect, other than the briefest aftermath of the practice or (2) to feel refreshed and energized. Debilitation, besides something that makes sense from the actual physical exertion, is suspect.
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I'm puzzled that you find the rigor mortis stage something to "grit your teeth and get through." For me, that's exactly when it all gets easy! The posture takes over, I'm no longer struggling with anything, I'm just resting in its rigid stillness. (Are we using the words differently?)
That's the main stuff - but a couple of (more idle) observations.
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I find your time scale very strange compared to my experience. The symptoms you have appearing after 30 to 50 minutes are things that (once they started occurring to me at all) would always be within very few minutes of starting a session - definitely under 15 minutes, usually 5 to 10. I don't think this is just the difference between us. It could be a language problem, struggling to describe properly. It could be something about your technique (I've never used meditation tapes, or anything of the kind including concurrent music - that would have distracted me too much - I would always do this practice just by sitting down with nothing around me to distract me or disturb me, and put my whole attention into sitting still.)
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I'm impressed that you can get any results in corpse position. Picking a posture that works for us is one of the places where everybody is a bit different. For me, the corpse position is useful for some things, but not for this "be perfectly still in one position for an hour" sort of practice. But don't argue with success. Your asana is your asana.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I wrote a long answer and then lost it in a browser crash. Here are the bullet points:
- Automatic rigidity is a consequence of early stages of kundalini action. The classics relate this to pranayama, but I'm certain that's just because pranayama eventually triggers early stages of kundalini activity. (I always got this easiest during asana - though it first emerged strongest during asana in periods when I was also doing a lot of pranayama; and yes, concentration exercises can "push" it.) "
Ah, that makes a lot of sense from my diary/experience. Thank you.
"2. These practices shouldn't make you sick! Though any strong practice can break stuff loose inside of you that gives any number of symptoms, I've never encountered asana practice producing flu-like symptoms. It really sounds to me like you've got the flu - some sort of virus. (This isn't a medical opinion.) At least assess your physical condition and anything that could be producing the same symptoms, and treat them as you would if you weren't doing any kind of practices - take them at face value. (Have you an actual fever? If so, then al the other symptoms make total sense - you're sick!) "
I guess I was sick after all. I was just wondering since released Kundalini can bring a man close to death that there were any 'small illnessess' recounted on that particular training path before one reached that point.
"3. Physical symptoms consequent to long persistence in a posture - besides the aches and pains that can happen as you are getting used to it - are usually (1) no particular after affect, other than the briefest aftermath of the practice or (2) to feel refreshed and energized. Debilitation, besides something that makes sense from the actual physical exertion, is suspect."
Thanks.
"4. I'm puzzled that you find the rigor mortis stage something to "grit your teeth and get through." For me, that's exactly when it all gets easy! The posture takes over, I'm no longer struggling with anything, I'm just resting in its rigid stillness. (Are we using the words differently?) "
Yes I was referring to RA Wilson when he said the extreme tautness turns into an incredibly painful stage that can only be described as rigor mortis . I've been noting that down as the stage JUST prior to resting in it's stillness. I think Crowley described it as just when it becomes unbarable then success is perversely just around the corner (I paraphrase). The resting in the stillness is a perfect image so I guess I'm successful at ONE part of the training
The only thing I'm nervous about is the eye and neck pressure during the almost unbearable stage, just mentioned for some reason my brain screams warnings that I'm doing damage to my neck. It's similar to the warning the brain screams at you if you've ever been armbarred or trained in joint or even neck locks. If you think your back is breaking then this primal terror / lizard brain takes over - away from this pain VERY quickly. It's an interesting area . Have someone put you in a kumura , even in practice and you understand a great deal very quickly about how little control you have over the deeper areas of the brain. I digress...
That's the main stuff - but a couple of (more idle) observations.
"5. I find your time scale very strange compared to my experience. The symptoms you have appearing after 30 to 50 minutes are things that (once they started occurring to me at all) would always be within very few minutes of starting a session - definitely under 15 minutes, usually 5 to 10. I don't think this is just the difference between us. It could be a language problem, struggling to describe properly. It could be something about your technique (I've never used meditation tapes, or anything of the kind including concurrent music - that would have distracted me too much - I would always do this practice just by sitting down with nothing around me to distract me or disturb me, and put my whole attention into sitting still.)"
The meditation tape is Regardies Mantram from the GD tapes - 'ohm namah shiva ohm' repeated in block sessions with different pitch. I've only been using that recently since I wanted to try mantra work. However the symptoms are the same 'roughly' , give or take five minutes.
I'll try to be clearer. When I begin asana ( God, Dragon, Corpse) it takes around 5-10 minutes to lose active conciousness of the body. I simply rest into it and keep my mind occupied on a point, or just simple breathing.
This stage can last half an hour where I'm 'kind of' aware of the body but can ignore it's signals at will.
30 min mark (ish)
During Dragon stage my ankles begin hurting and sending distress signals, (I'm of a martial arts background however and used to be made to sit like this for 20 mins at a time on hardwood, so I have some practice in this) I become very uncomfortable.
During God I begin sweating profusely and my arms start shaking, my legs have a muscle spasm and 'seize up' a few moments later my arms and shoulders also start shaking - all the while I am determined not to move or change tension, I just start breathing through it.
During Corpse, almost identical symptoms as God however, since I've more practice at it the tension recently has become 'pleasurable ' (how subjective is that?!) it's as if my body expects this tension and welcomes it rather than in early practice - feared.45 Minutes - have not passed 45 in Dragon but have not actually tried. It's my current training time. My ankles hurt for roughly 15 minutes afterwards.
45-- God - The body is as tense as it can get yet each minute it somehow manages to get tenser. I'm covered in sweat and find it incredibly difficult to breath. As yet have not passed 50 minutes but due to my results in Corpse I understand about the stages in my body's reaction and will return to it knowing that this stage ceases.
45 Corpse. -the feelings of tension and more tension have passed. I'm floating in my own very tense body just as you described Jim.
60 - corpse - still floating and feeling incredibly free but feel a huge 'something' building outside/and inside - like a spiritual realm of ultimate freedom is so close. Generally the realisation of this state of being is enough to throw me back into intellectual ganglia of thought and loose the freeness that allowed me to apprehend this 'other ' in the first place.
65 -70 minw in corpse, the whole body starts tensing once again to an extraordinary degree. Every muscle in my body is straining, my eyes, my neck, and then the whole body starts shuddering greatly as if in spasm. Here is where I really grit my teeth and challenge the body's rebellion. Each breath is pain ,the sweats appear everywhere, my teeth couldnt be separated by a crowbar and I'm sure I get a good glute work out... In short OW.
One thing then seems to happen at this crescendo - I take what I can only describe as 'the truest breath ive ever taken' the body itself from the stomach to the chest shoulders and throat just - opens - and in comes this amazingly pure breath taken in by the whole body. Almost like our first breath -with this breath comes memory that this isn't a new experience but this is how to actually breathe and my body has always known it..After this breath the body seems to change, the rib cage seems to have moved , the legs stretch, my neck stretches ,all parts of my body seem to want to EXPAND.
Then , all of a sudden all the pain ceases. It just goes away along with any sensation of my physical body and what I thought was relaxation at 50 minutes is seen as no where near this sense of freedom. I feel completely and utterly body-less. This seems to be the result Crowley was talking of in his yoga lectures. Or to me it does at least.
"6. I'm impressed that you can get any results in corpse position. Picking a posture that works for us is one of the places where everybody is a bit different. For me, the corpse position is useful for some things, but not for this "be perfectly still in one position for an hour" sort of practice. But don't argue with success. Your asana is your asana."
When I was 18, a good twenty years ago I was desperately trying for OOBE's and one book said lie on your back and so I did . It took 6 months of nightly practice before I achieved success and actually managed an independent corroboration of my observations while OOB.
Unfortunately I had no map at all to the other worlds at the time and ended up in a very very bad place. Are there a species of entities made from flies with glowing red eyes? Anyway I ended up there. I then put an end to any experiments of that nature and to be honest am slightly worried about entering that part of the training.
Not all was lost however, I am now certain that my rescuer was none other than my HGA.In any case I don't fall asleep during corpse by finding a hard floor. I haven't needed to add the bed of nails yet.
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If you're worried about hallucinations, seeing flies with glowing eyes, etc, then one technique that at least the Zen school does is to consider them as Makyos. Makyos can range from emotional states to seeing faces or animals on the wall. Some of them may even be very pleasant. In any case, the advice is not to consider them either positive or negative. Just observe them and they'll eventually go away. They're not the real attainment of kensho or satori.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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The classics relate this to pranayama, but I'm certain that's just because pranayama eventually triggers early stages of kundalini activity. (I always got this easiest during asana - though it first emerged strongest during asana in periods when I was also doing a lot of pranayama; and yes, concentration exercises can "push" it.)
"Excuse me my noob question
, but only practicing one asana, and among these the God posture?
God posture can really trigger kundalini? -
Any posture at all, if held firmly and unwaveringly for long periods, probably can do this, yes.
With the God-posture, I can't tell you from personal experience that it can trigger it, because I already had it moving pretty well by the time I started working with that posture. But I can tell you that one of the problems I had with the posture at first was that I couldn't hold it for more than a few minutes (less than 5) before kundalini started moving at a distracting volume. I had to learn to bring it more under control. But, admittedly, that could be different since it was already flowing easily.
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I've been reading this thread with some interest as I am in the process of trying to practice asana.
I'm currently using the Dragon and the Half Lotus position, and I'm wondering about the degree of rigidity required.
I usually sort of put the body in the required position and then refuse to move the body from that position, come what may, its not so much that I consciously tense my body, but that it more or less assumes a sort of rigidity of its own due to the pressure of maintaining that posture; is this correct?
Moreover I find that I get a much higher degree of rigidity if i combine it with a sort of pranayama, usually Inhale for 8, hold for 36, and exhale for 16, repeat as nauseum.
so far I haven't had anything that I would associate with kundalini awakening, although I do get a sort of detachment from the body after about 10-20 minutes, almost as if i'm floating above my body. a sort of floating head as it were, although I never lose awareness of the body, but it becomes sort of detached from my immediate awareness, as if it were behind a screen.
Is this right? I'm getting the impression that I should be trying for greater rigidity.
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@Solitarius said
"its not so much that I consciously tense my body, but that it more or less assumes a sort of rigidity of its own due to the pressure of maintaining that posture; is this correct?"
Sounds right. (It's hard to describe exactly what happens, and I would have probably described it differently; but your description sounds like what I've experienced.
The commitment to simply be still causes a 'firmness.' It's as though the body takes on some sort of 'lock,' almost as in perfectly balanced isometrics, but without strain and certainly without consciously tensing.
"I'm getting the impression that I should be trying for greater rigidity."
Variations of the A.'.A.'. standard test apply: Are you actually moving? Simple test: If you balance a book on your head, does it stay?
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I wouldn't say I'm completely rigid as of yet, some days it's like I can do no wrong, in the half lotus I can remain motionless for up to an hour, (I could probably do more if I pushed it, but I haven't done that yet) In the dragon I'd more or less half it as the pain in my legs is too distracting after about 25 minutes.
Ironically enough I find I get greater rigidity in the Dragon.
I think A.C described the state as "braced", like a runner waiting for the gun, and I can see his point.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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With the God-posture, I can't tell you from personal experience that it can trigger it, because I already had it moving pretty well by the time I started working with that posture."If possible, which other asanas/practice you did before the God posture?
In your opinion, theoretically, there are asanas that can better trigger kundalini?@Solitarius said
"Moreover I find that I get a much higher degree of rigidity if i combine it with a sort of pranayama, usually Inhale for 8, hold for 36, and exhale for 16, repeat as nauseum."
With or without Nadi Shodhana?
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@MMe said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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With the God-posture, I can't tell you from personal experience that it can trigger it, because I already had it moving pretty well by the time I started working with that posture."If possible, which other asanas/practice you did before the God posture?
In your opinion, theoretically, there are asanas that can better trigger kundalini?@Solitarius said
"Moreover I find that I get a much higher degree of rigidity if i combine it with a sort of pranayama, usually Inhale for 8, hold for 36, and exhale for 16, repeat as nauseum."
With or without Nadi Shodhana?"
Without usually, If I'm practicing the asana primarily and am using the pranayama to regularise the breath.
I'm not doing so much pranayama on it's own at present although I do do it with the alternating nostrils sometimes, I'm thnking I'd need to do this as a separate practice to Asana as it involves moving the arms, which would kinda mess up the posture.
I have found that if i don't do something like this with the breath then it starts to become yet another source of distraction from the asana. one other thing I've found very useful is the Mantra "Aum mani padmi Hum" although this works better with a fourfold breath (inhale 4, hold 4, exhale 4, hold 4: repeat on and on and on and on)
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@MMe said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"With the God-posture, I can't tell you from personal experience that it can trigger it, because I already had it moving pretty well by the time I started working with that posture."If possible, which other asanas/practice you did before the God posture?"
My main posture (and that in which I eventually passed the 2=9 test) was a simple kneeling position. BTW that, also, was all after my kundalini rise. (I was a late bloomer on yoga - had the idea there was no reason to bother until I was 2=9 - and the original main K event was relatively early in 1=10.)
"In your opinion, theoretically, there are asanas that can better trigger kundalini?"
The Eastern teachers sugest so. I doubt it, though. (That is, there may be some that are more advantageous than others, but this varies widely from person to person, and more or less any vertical, straight-spined position persisted in probably will do the deed.)
I mostly don't care (and therefore haven't looked super-closely into it) because I don't think kundalini raising should be a goal. It's just a thing that happens along the way.
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I think, Jim, that the motive why the TC takes a lot for the symptoms of the "lock" to appear is that he uses another way to approach the experience.
In fact, he even says so when he mentions that he learned to use the "corpse" for OBEs. When you practice those authors say to you to relax all the muscles in progression, and this is probably what he is doing.
That's one way to do it. It will come a point when the "lock" will happen also there, but it takes much more, about 40-60 minutes (if not mixed with any sort of pranayama) in confront to when you tense the muscles (where it happens fast - especially when you are good at it - but you have to endure pain before). Strangely enough, while doing the typical "tense" routine as prescribed by Crowley the "lock" works much faster in straight positions, it doesn't work (at last for me) at all while in corpse, and the other way around (i.e. relaxing doesn't trigger the "lock" in a straight position, or very difficulty so, if not aided by anything else).
As for the pain etc. again I think the TC is mistaking what he experiences for something else. While related (because they are anyway still Kundalini phenomena for what I can understand) the type of experience he described is more similar to the first avenues of an OBE in certain specific cases (as they can arise on his own, read for example the Pineal Door method by Oliver Fox) than what it happens in a typical Asana. Still the pain should not be there after, if not for a brief period, so maybe he is tensing hard the jaw in the process (it happens almost always the first times this process kickstart, because you think the experience is physical so you automatically tense the jaw and the neck strongly as a reflex, and this in turns also stops the process).
This coming from my experience in both things. I can be wrong, naturally, but just giving my two cents on the issue.
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"60 - corpse - still floating and feeling incredibly free but feel a huge 'something' building outside/and inside - like a spiritual realm of ultimate freedom is so close. Generally the realisation of this state of being is enough to throw me back into intellectual ganglia of thought and loose the freeness that allowed me to apprehend this 'other ' in the first place."
Now it doesn't take me that long to get to this part. For me this happens around 20 minutes in my practice with padmasana (Full Lotus). I've been doing it for a few (or couple) months regularly (consistence is virtue I'm trying to attain atm), and I can get past the usual pain, tenseness, shaking ect. about 15 in asana. But recently I'm been able to slip into this state, only for a minute or less then I'm thrown back like you said.
And it's in and out like that. When I reach it, exiting thought will come and oops I'm back again. How do I stop this? Do I think back at the thoughts? Or just go back to thinking of being still?
I've experienced this building of something a few times. Recently a couple days ago when I reached the state of "resting" in my body, I heard, felt, and saw a humming that was was building pressure as the pitch got higher like something was going to explode. Then thoughts rushed in and it faded away. But this doesn't always happen.