"Poverty is a state of consciousness"
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@Frater LA said
"I think this is a pretty damn good example right here of your condescension.
"It is a bad example. Read the question again.
So, another speaking confidently of his knowledge on an esoteric matter appears to be 'condescension' to you?Why would you choose to react that way?
@Frater LA said
"You act like your sign is the only one in the sky."
I speak confidently on my own experience. You have a problem with that? Your exaggeration is weakness and your needless put-downs speak for themselves. I had made no accusations towards you of this nature. What is your problem?
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You're smug.
There are myself and others here who are struggling forward trying to understand the most difficult concepts in existence - the end of the riddle - and you constantly make snide comments about your low expectations of us.
Now, you speak as if you understand True Will and as if you are apparently disappointed in our ability to embrace it without concern for others, who must liberate themselves from their impoverished state of consciousness.
You speak as if those who have given their lives and energies in service to others - to help other out of their impoverished state of consciousness - and to fight the entities that would keep them in their impoverished state of consciousness - just really didn't "get it," and you belittle them for it. Indeed, you belittle "us" for it. Instead, you say a person should follow their own Will, which is spoken of as if service to others could not be part of it. As you describe it, concern for others in this regard is all foolishness, guilt, and manipulation. You seem pretty damned certain of it - certain enough to be smug about it continuously in our faces.
So, I'm calling you out on it. Yes, you have the right to speak confidently from your personal experience. I'm hoping you will. Now reveal your big obvious answer that we are so ignorant for not perceiving. Teach me something new, or stop being smug and condescending without reason. Why can't a person's True Will involve service to others? Why can't it involve liberation of the oppressed? Or if it can, then who are you to judge another man's Will?
The members are many, but the body is One.
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@Frater LA said
"you constantly make snide comments about your low expectations of us."
Constantly...?...of who? ..wha? ... give three examples, please (that should be easy if it is constant, [though I doubt you can come up with a single one]).
@Frater LA said
"Instead, you say a person should follow their own Will, which is spoken of as if service to others could not be part of it."
Yes, following one's own will is good... but as for the rest of that -- I didn't say that. (not even close).
@Frater LA said
"As you describe it, concern for others in this regard is all foolishness, guilt, and manipulation."
No, I didn't. Not even close.
@Frater LA said
"Now reveal your big obvious answer that we are so ignorant for not perceiving."
big obvious answer?... what the?...? hhmmm You'll have to clarify that one for me.
@Frater LA said
"Why can't a person's True Will involve service to others?"
?! I didn't say it couldn't.
I ask you again. What is your problem?
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@Labyrinthus said
"
@Frater LA said
"you constantly make snide comments about your low expectations of us."Constantly...?...of who? ..wha? ... give three examples, please (that should be easy if it is constant, [though I doubt you can come up with a single one]).
"
There's one
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"Poverty is a state of consciousness. So is sickness, mastery, depression, and anything else you want to label. The question is, how do you raise consciousness to correct any imbalances - or, do you feel you should not?"
Back and forth
forth and backI feel like reading this thread has me on a teeter totter, or a swing.....
I was looking forward to this thread last week. My professional works deals with helping people facilitate change and shifting awareness. I just finished reading 4 pages of words here. While I appreciate what was attempted, and that the general tone stayed civil.....I feel that a very worthy issue in the world was not explored to it potential. But I have been told feelings are not facts, and so I am probably wrong.
Please feel free to jump all over me, and correct my misgivings. I love school, I am an eternal student.....
Compassion, sympathy, empthy are words in my book that mean that my energies, my feelings, my thoughts are going out to someone else, based on a perception I have. I have learned that it is best to keep my energies to myself, unless I am asked to share them, or if my kin is in need. Being that we are all kin, that could be a very fine line to dance upon....I have learned a lot about the term enabling, and co-dependency, and people with wounds, I think those terms have releavance to this topic.
I used to have a bumper skicker that said "do not meddle in the affiars of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
I have to come to understand that when I can completely change my perceptions (which happens on a biochemical level in my being- a complete shift in my awareness of what is real to me) my reality changes.
While it is commonly held that consciousness can only be changed by the individual, there are many schools of thought that teach us methods to help faciliate this shift. In fact I have been led to believe that Rite of Passage, and Initiation are developed to help an individual attain this shift in consciouness. The fact that most all of the human population do not undergo these important events seems to be missing most peoples perception. I do wonder though about the consciousness of the hypnotised person who think they are a chicken? Did the hypnotist change the consciousness? If so then the person who actually be a chicken, in all outward appearances. But what if the world was hypnotized to believe that the person was a chicken? What then of consciousness?
I dont know how many of you are parents, and have raised little ones. I studyied occult teaching for years before I gave birth, and that act brought about the biggest shift in my consciousness. Battling with a childs Will has humbled me in ways I never knew possible. Yet I had to, ego's aside, as a parent you have to dominate and force your child to do something they dont want. Women have been called the great manipulators for a reason. I have seen my mother in law ruin my husbands good mood with one well worded sentence, and when I call her on it and confront her- she is turns into the river in Egypt- De Nile, asserting that she didnt mean it "that" way.....
When I first started on my path, and attempted to Know Myself, I learned that the path to the soul lies through the heart. Finding that path though, from what I have seen is the challenge. Fear is the biggest road block to the heart, and helping people face thier fears is a challenge that many in the occult world are up to.
In my practice of holistic healthcare, trying to find the correct cataylst to facilitate a change in consciouness is a hit and miss game at best, or attempting to find a needle in a haystack. What brings about a shift in perception in one person is not what is needed/helpful (possibly even harmful) to another.
I have learned though that what is called the middle pillar, or a balance of strenght and mercy (or what ever opposites is called for in the particular) is often the best medicine.
Consciousness can be forced to change, even against the "apparent" will of the subject. Trauma, crisis, loss, pain, illness conspire to bring about these changes, and if one is skilled enough (like a Shaman, or therapist) the subject will change.
I do believe that is one of the wonderful reason my sex is so powerful, it brings us to the brink of death, and then back again. But then again I may just be biasised towards sex. I probably am......lucky for some.
I have been reading a few things about mind control, and mass hypnosis, and the lot......I am not convinced that this actually brings about a change in consciousness. I had read about using music and sound to bring about biological changes in organisms, about how to change brain wave patterns, and the like......it seems as if the technology for bringing about a change in consciousness is availible.
So then I am left wondering why it is not being done.
I dont think the statement "there are to many people" is a valid reason, I dont think the argument "it is to costly" is valid either.
I dont think the reason is that it is felt that humans need to do this on an individual basis is valid either.
I do want to know why the powers that be are not allowing thier energies (sympathy, empathy, compassion) to go out to the other emanations to lift them out of this sick, poor, unnurished consciouness.
Maybe I am way off base, maybe.
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@Takamba said
"There's one"
No, it isn't. Very funny...
Unbelievable the lack of any sense of honesty or fairness...
A man can't even refute a false accusation made against him without blatant distortion of his words being made.
Main Entry: snide
Pronunciation: \ˈsnīd
Function: adjective
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: circa 18591 a : false, counterfeit b : practicing deception : dishonest <a snide merchant>
2 : unworthy of esteem : low <a snide trick>
3 : slyly disparaging : insinuating <snide remarks>Takamba, my simple refutation of a false accusation does not fall into any of those three categories... your comment however fits '1.' quite well.
I am getting the distinct impression that some here in this forum community are clearly put off by a newbie who fails to grovel and make the expected prostrations for the proper duration of time.
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You're the common denominator in all your conflicts Labyrinthus.
(just like I am in all of mine)
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@Veronica said
"Consciousness can be forced to change, even against the "apparent" will of the subject. Trauma, crisis, loss, pain, illness conspire to bring about these changes, and if one is skilled enough (like a Shaman, or therapist) the subject will change. "
Good ideas, Veronica. Thanks.
But I am not sure a trauma induced change is what I would call a change of consciousness. It generates change in behavior according to the level of consciousness of the individual. Two people together in the back seat of a car in a bad accident can change in completely different ways. One simply changes his diapers and moves on while the other has nightmares and requires therapy. The difference in response reflects a difference in consciousness.
Yes, the technology to change behavior does exist, but this is what I would call 'programming' and does not 'raise consciousness'. It is as I said earlier, something about how a pigeon can be trained to unlock a safe by pecking in a coded sequence.
The Music idea is a fun one though. The Mozart effect.... Binaural beats.... but moving the brain from alpha to delta states or whatever... I do not see this as consciousness. What really surprises me though is how so many people willfully choose to listen to horrible, destructive noise at loud volumes when soft, constructive sound is readily available.
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Given:
@Labyrinthus said"The true Initiate works quietly on his own or with others of like mind and would never dream of telling others what problems need to be solved or how to behave in general."
@Labyrinthus said
"It only appears that way if your viewpoint is undisciplined or immature."
@Labyrinthus said
"Marxism, Communism and its Little Brother, Socialism are the spawn of Satan.
Those who have the slightest clue what the Freedom to "Do As Thou Wilt" is all about recognize that pure capitalism is the true playground of budding young Initiates."
@Labyrinthus said
"Those who have a better system will simply go out and do it. Total losers will try to impose their theory of a better system against the Thelemic Will of True Initiates"
These are the chief offenses in my mind.
Your mockery and disdain is simply another form of the same manipulation of which you accuse "us" - your political opponents and basically anyone who disagrees with you. I will not be made to feel guilty for the politics of "making other people feel guilty," when the crux of your argument is that "we" are guilty of crimes worthy of disdain by True Initiates if we don't agree with a True Initiate, have the understanding of a True Initiate, or behave as a True Initiate, which you apparently consider yourself, knowing their opinions intimitely as you do. Who is playing "insider/outsider" again, oh True Initiate? Is it "us"?
The entire time that you protest control, your characterization of your opponent as uninitiate is nothing but a manipulative form of control - an action bred from your own fear of control. I'm weary of it, and I resent it. I resent being made to play your shadow and take on all your venom and snide remarks toward the opposing viewpoint.
The One thing is Nothing until it manifests as opposites. The end.
Next week, the stars will be different, but on this day, I choose not to be spoken down to by a man who can't recognize his own shadow.
@Labyrinthus said
"I have not taken an oath to any organization thus far. Something about it strikes me as crossing the line in the 'control' department."
Labyrinthus, the True Initiate recognizes his own shadow and does not become the slave of it.
Is that the kind of thing you've been ready to fight if you hear?
Me too. How's it feel?
Notice that no one here plays the "True Initiate" card but you. Everyone else argues from scientific evidence or appeal to universal priniciple. I guess if you wanted "insider/outsider," then there it is. Can you deal with those kinds of "insider/outsider" rules? You'd think they'd be very agreeable to you. So far, you simply stand damned by your own judgment.
You are attempting to raise my consciousness through manipulation.
I will not be ruled ...either.
So, here we are to the point again: You are behaving smugly and making snide comments, and I am calling you out on it. Either teach me something new about how the nuturing, "mother" principle in the Universe is now banned from participation in the realms of politics and True Will, or stop talking down to me (one of several opponents) from your snide True-Initiate chair.
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@Frater LA said
"These are the chief offenses in my mind."
Is English your first language Frater LA? If not your apparent abuse of the language may be excused. There is nothing sly or underhanded about my statements concerning my understanding of the "True Initiate". I am direct and speak in a very straightforward manner. I think I have every right to speak about esoteric matters as I understand them and I have every right to offer my viewpoint of the characteristics of a True Initiate as I understand it. Unlike you, I do not direct disparaging remarks directly at another individual here. I speak about general principles and ideas.
If you suffer some sort of insecurity complex such that my comments are so disturbing to you, so be it. But I will not be moved to make excuses for my comments because you suffer misunderstanding so readily and take general commentary so personally.
I have recently been reading The Training and Work of an Initiate by Dion Fortune and so far it appears that there are at least two levels on which to read the term, Initiate. I may discover more.
@Frater LA said
"Your mockery and disdain is simply another form of the same manipulation of which you accuse "us""
I have mocked no one here and my disdain is for those who make coercive attempts to make me act against my will. And I have accused no collective "us"(you plural). Just more false accusations. There is a lot of that going around. You do have the option of specifying an exact quote and asking for further explanation if you wish to be more certain.
@Frater LA said
"Who is playing "insider/outsider" again, oh True Initiate? Is it "us"?"
Can you point out where I made such a claim? (Or are you sincerely applying the title to me... or is that sarcasm/anger?)
@Frater LA said
"your characterization of your opponent as uninitiate is nothing but a manipulative form of control - an action bred from your own fear of control. "
Again and again... I did NOT characterize anyone here as an 'uninitiate'. Just more false accusations. And to say, " action bred from your own fear of control"... hmmm... are you aware of what happens in your inner realm when you make firm allegations such as this?... especially when they are wrong?! You might want to do yourself a favor and back off a bit.
@Frater LA said
"Labyrinthus, the True Initiate recognizes his own shadow and does not become the slave of it.
Is that the kind of thing you've been ready to fight if you hear? "No. It isn't. My initial impulse is to ask for clarification as I have done more than once with you. Again, what are you talking about?
@Frater LA said
"Notice that no one here plays the "True Initiate" card but you. Everyone else argues from scientific evidence or appeal to universal priniciple."
I think the "True Initiate" concept is a fascinating one. You can argue from whatever else you like but if you don't mind I'll reserve my right to introduce whatever card I like, whenever I please. Why do you choose to be so offended by that?
@Frater LA said
"You are attempting to raise my consciousness through manipulation."
Heheh. Not hardly. ? manipulating what? How?
@Frater LA said
"Either teach me something new about how the nuturing, "mother" principle in the Universe is now banned from participation in the realms of politics and True Will, or stop talking down to me (one of several opponents) from your snide True-Initiate chair."
(where did I claim to be a True Initiate?... unbelievable stream of error and deception here). Wow. That's a rather demanding tone. For some reason I was under the impression that it would be okay for me to share my thoughts and opinions on the subjects that are brought up here. I really did not expect this level of insecurity and fearfulness of different viewpoints and so much misrepresentation and false accusations and such.
geez... you'd think I just ran over the family dog or something.... -
Do what thou wilt shall be the Whole of the Law
I am not going to get caught up in the argument but I wanted to share some thoughts on the thread topic.
Growing up in pure poverty sucks. Especially coping, as a child, with the mental derangements of parents which more than likely accounted for the situation.
I don't, however, believe that poverty is a negative thing. Somehow I feel as though it is necessary to be humbled right from the start. The world seemed to me like a vast and cruel machine producing garbage people.
Now I can only try to examine how much of my behaviour is inflenced by my parents and how I grew up and every time I hold myself in check and realize that I was about to replicate a certain behaviour I can see, clearly, how a ton of the people in my life are going through the same thing only not realizing the trap they are in.
I am not better off for realizing this, I am still garbage. May it be that through Will I may transmutate my life. Everyone else has their own problems.
I think that the point I am trying to make is that I believe poverty used to make the impoverished person more attuned with spiritual life. The Vows of Silence and Vows of Poverty of christian monks. The Sanyasins in India who completely renounce every thought they have in their heads. I've even heard that for oriental magicians taboos are followed in order to attain in their sorcery.
I think you people ought to quit bickering and go out and try begging on the street for awhile. Just to see what its like.93 93/93
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Sir, my inner world applauds and thanks me for standing up and defending the principles of the Divine feminine against your one-sided war on the more sensitive functions of Reality. I am thanked for it, refreshed for it, and given new words daily for it.
What is the difference in impact on the hearer between these two statements: "The ideas you hold dearest are stupid," and "You are stupid"? I daily see very little difference in regard to the effects it has on others. It requires a strong and precise mind to tease out the difference. Personally, I experience it as a technicality behind which villains hide their misdeeds and oppression.
Maybe it works for you. I don't know. It doesn't at all for me. But I'll try to speak your own language to you and see how you react.
Labyrinthus, I consider it a dishonorable act of cowardice when a person shoots an insult around a corner instead of saying it to someone's face. I think that act is the very epitome of hypocrisy, especially when such a grand concept as the True Initiate is invoked to give it power, as one could never know how it may shape the mind of young initiates and aspirants according to one's own prejudices. Such an act would be deplorable to me. If I thought that someone's round-the-corner shaming resulted in the repression of necessary functions and temperaments within the universe into silence and inaction, thinking they are without worth and use, I would consider that a solipsistic act of manipulation bordering on black magick. I would consider their repression unhealthy for the survival of the whole as well as for the survival of the individual. Yes, individual minds must act to free themselves, but if I thought there was a more powerful mind on the other end programming them into submission and keeping them from the knowledge of their Will - and for something as meaningless and transient as financial prosperity - I would resist the power of that unbalanced perspective with vigor and vengeance. And I would resist it by destroying the mystique given to that opinion by nature of its being wrapped in the cloak of what the True Initiate would supposedly do.
You have your stars. I have mine. Our perspectives can both be completely "righteous" even if our perspectives are diametrically opposed. I appeal to the hexagram.
You're of course more right about me than I am happy to admit. I gave you that weapon when I told you I was Pisces Moon. Such is the weakness of my strengths. But the rules of manifestation dictate that we all share our part, even though our strengths are our very weaknesses and vice-versa. I wish you would be more conscious of your words and show more respect for the other principles and functions in the universe, even if they are different from you and follow other stars. Such is the nature of manifestation. The colors are many, but the light is one.
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@Frater LA said
""The ideas you hold dearest are stupid," and "You are stupid"? I daily see very little difference in regard to the effects it has on others."
For many people, yes, I see this too. But I expect those that I communicate with, especially serious students of the occult, to be able to not just see the difference but to actually be able to identify with their Inner Being and NOT the ideas bouncing around between their ears. This problem is worse generally, among females. At work we had to have a little meeting on this where the engineers, disproportionately men, were generally brutal with each other in these sorts of assessments and some of the women complained.
This reminds me of a story I heard a gym teacher relate. A male gym teacher was sick one day so the girl's teacher took the entire class and ran the kids through some energetic exercise. At the end she called them together and said, "You mostly made a good effort today but some of you were under-performing". She reported that by the phone calls from irate mothers she estimated that half the girls went home crying to mother about how the gym teacher "HUMILIATED ME in front of the whole class!" She said not one complaint came from the boy's side. She said that over the years she noted that when comments like that were made the boys would jab an elbow in the ribs of their friend and say, "she's talking about you, loser" and they would laugh. But for the girls it was practically the end of the world.
@Frater LA said
"Personally, I experience it as a technicality behind which villains hide their misdeeds and oppression. "
Whoa! I agree completely but your take on it is almost the exact opposite of the way I see it. Seriously, the exact opposite. Pandering to those who are easily offended and wallow in self deception hides misdeeds and facilitates oppression.
I find that in order to communicate more esoteric concepts a degree of semantic discipline is required, along with a degree of detachment and objectivity. Those who haven't learned to recognize the difference between their thoughts or ideas and their true Being simply aren't going to get it. Those who can recognize the separation but lack the requisite detachment are halfway there. Undue attachment to an idea and sensitivity to political correctness precludes communication of deeper concepts.
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Yes, I ponder both sides of this quite a lot myself. Please check your PMs.
Namaste.
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@Frater LA said
"You have your stars. I have mine. Our perspectives can both be completely "righteous" even if our perspectives are diametrically opposed."
Guess what?! I have a Pisces Moon too! What a coincidence.
But mine is trine to Saturn so over the years the cycles of Life have taught me to rein it in, and be judicious in its expression. I too was once an oh so compassionate young buck, registered democrat, proudly wallowing in fantasies about the way the world "should" be. But as the hands of time moved, Chronos-logical events moved me to the Center with a more sensible grasp of reality. ( I even donated hard cash to Amnesty International, People for the American Way, Am. Civil Liberties Union... !! 
)Now, if you want to neurotically attach some kind of underhanded insult to that, be my guest. Far be it from me to infringe on you free will to do so. But I will draw the line at excessive whining and abusive language directed straight at me because my expression of my feelings on the matter happens to bother you. Call me a coward if you like but all that usually does is broadcast more detail of one's insecurity complex and tyrannical, oppressive nature.
As for the "True Initiate" comments I made I can only say that in other circles that I travel in those would not be in any way offensive. If there is some sort of hallowed line that I crossed, If that was somehow sacrilegious by local Thelemic standards someone with the authority to speak on this matter, please educate me on this. Otherwise I'll just conclude that your are totally out to lunch.
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It is a very common disturbance on this forum that people come in claiming high grades of initiation and making pronouncements.
I try to discourage it, as it is usually much more of the character of which I have been accusing you and serves to give others very misogynistic and genocidal ideas about Thelema. I know it did me at first.
Make no mistake, I am still of the perspective that over-sensitivity/insensitivity are characterizations completely relative to the situation. Absolutely unshakeable on that. Either perspective, mercy or severity, held for some sense of inherent value alone, are flawed. Neither are the middle path.
Brother, I may be oversensitive, but... how to say this... You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and in the realm of the survival of nations and species, the functions of Unity are the balance to the Law of the Strong.
Be as strong and correct as you like, but if two weaker can combine to usurp your power, then your method is no longer correct as far as survival goes - the Unity that has bound the weaker individuals has conquered you. THIS is the point of advocating social justice. Unity also sometimes coddles and weakens. This is the point of advocating individual rights.
True, neither is correct all the time, and I try to keep these two in balance in my meditations. I have the leanings of my stars, of course, and I try to learn the lessons of Reality. If you have something to add to that, I'm interested.
Let the brother and sister stars judge.
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Excuse me. This is grown-folks business.
lol... Go think for yourself, we're enjoying ourselves here.
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@Frater LA said
"Excuse me. This is grown-folks business.
lol... Go think for yourself, we're enjoying ourselves here."Eggszacka-ackilly neighbor.
I mean, its not like this is the only channel on the internet, or even this forum. Heruraha offers a veritable smorgasbord of topics... or you could start your own if this one doesn't suit you.
Besides, there is deep Thelemic wisdom oozing from the very pores of threads like this and while it will annoy the gentiles the True Initiates
will follow closely. -
@Frater Aster Lux said
"Blah Blah Blah!
Why is it so important to argue (or "debate", if you rather) what you believe, if that's what you believe? ...and just what the hell is a "belief" anyway?
Any one ever read the comment that is published in Liber Al? Forgive me if this goes too far for all you literalists out there when I give my opinion, but I thought this is exactly the kind of discussion that should have been discouraged by such a statement.
I know we aren't discussing the book per se, but don't you think this is a little either sided for a thelemic discussion board?"
Actually, I consider it quite "both"-sided.
By the way, Frater, you have the right, of course, to challenge my oh-so-poignantly ironic hypocrisy and abuse.
Then you may judge for yourself whether I defend myself from reason and principle or merely from my own, highly questionable, subjective experience.
Of course, I may simply apologize. But to find out, you'll have to rejoin this futile discussion...
". . .while it will annoy the gentiles the True Initiates will follow closely."
Regardless, I wish you wouldn't go there. I did go absolutely bonkers once because of studying all of this stuff, and claims to authority of personal experience held absolutely no weight for me - not in the place where I was. That's why I like this place: "We place no reliance on virgin or pigeon; Our Method is Science, Our Aim is Religion"! Can't remember where that's from, but A.C. wrote that.
"Virgin and pigeon" are understood by me to represent the whimsical pronouncements of supposed authorities that cannot be backed up by (nor challenged by) science, reason, or principle. I think that's why I react so strongly against the whole "True Initiate" line. I had the same reaction when I saw it in "Training and Work," by the way, and I don't think I'm the only one who has at least a few criticisms of her for being a touch puritanical. Though - I have the utmost respect for what she's taught me, and there is great and deep wisdom in that book.
Personally, I think we understand each other.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the Law. Love under Will. -
@Frater Aster Lux said
"You won't know when I'm thinking for myself, because I won't be pushing my opinion.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
Yes, Frater.
And I am glad for the opportunity to apologize to you. I abused you after I asked for the very judgment you gave. Please forgive me. Zeal for my Mother's house consumed me, and I was far too in the spirit to recognize the third point of the Triangle.
I recognize you now.
Shalom and Namaste.