"Poverty is a state of consciousness"
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@Frater LA said
"These are the chief offenses in my mind."
Is English your first language Frater LA? If not your apparent abuse of the language may be excused. There is nothing sly or underhanded about my statements concerning my understanding of the "True Initiate". I am direct and speak in a very straightforward manner. I think I have every right to speak about esoteric matters as I understand them and I have every right to offer my viewpoint of the characteristics of a True Initiate as I understand it. Unlike you, I do not direct disparaging remarks directly at another individual here. I speak about general principles and ideas.
If you suffer some sort of insecurity complex such that my comments are so disturbing to you, so be it. But I will not be moved to make excuses for my comments because you suffer misunderstanding so readily and take general commentary so personally.
I have recently been reading The Training and Work of an Initiate by Dion Fortune and so far it appears that there are at least two levels on which to read the term, Initiate. I may discover more.
@Frater LA said
"Your mockery and disdain is simply another form of the same manipulation of which you accuse "us""
I have mocked no one here and my disdain is for those who make coercive attempts to make me act against my will. And I have accused no collective "us"(you plural). Just more false accusations. There is a lot of that going around. You do have the option of specifying an exact quote and asking for further explanation if you wish to be more certain.
@Frater LA said
"Who is playing "insider/outsider" again, oh True Initiate? Is it "us"?"
Can you point out where I made such a claim? (Or are you sincerely applying the title to me... or is that sarcasm/anger?)
@Frater LA said
"your characterization of your opponent as uninitiate is nothing but a manipulative form of control - an action bred from your own fear of control. "
Again and again... I did NOT characterize anyone here as an 'uninitiate'. Just more false accusations. And to say, " action bred from your own fear of control"... hmmm... are you aware of what happens in your inner realm when you make firm allegations such as this?... especially when they are wrong?! You might want to do yourself a favor and back off a bit.
@Frater LA said
"Labyrinthus, the True Initiate recognizes his own shadow and does not become the slave of it.
Is that the kind of thing you've been ready to fight if you hear? "No. It isn't. My initial impulse is to ask for clarification as I have done more than once with you. Again, what are you talking about?
@Frater LA said
"Notice that no one here plays the "True Initiate" card but you. Everyone else argues from scientific evidence or appeal to universal priniciple."
I think the "True Initiate" concept is a fascinating one. You can argue from whatever else you like but if you don't mind I'll reserve my right to introduce whatever card I like, whenever I please. Why do you choose to be so offended by that?
@Frater LA said
"You are attempting to raise my consciousness through manipulation."
Heheh. Not hardly. ? manipulating what? How?
@Frater LA said
"Either teach me something new about how the nuturing, "mother" principle in the Universe is now banned from participation in the realms of politics and True Will, or stop talking down to me (one of several opponents) from your snide True-Initiate chair."
(where did I claim to be a True Initiate?... unbelievable stream of error and deception here). Wow. That's a rather demanding tone. For some reason I was under the impression that it would be okay for me to share my thoughts and opinions on the subjects that are brought up here. I really did not expect this level of insecurity and fearfulness of different viewpoints and so much misrepresentation and false accusations and such.
geez... you'd think I just ran over the family dog or something.... -
Do what thou wilt shall be the Whole of the Law
I am not going to get caught up in the argument but I wanted to share some thoughts on the thread topic.
Growing up in pure poverty sucks. Especially coping, as a child, with the mental derangements of parents which more than likely accounted for the situation.
I don't, however, believe that poverty is a negative thing. Somehow I feel as though it is necessary to be humbled right from the start. The world seemed to me like a vast and cruel machine producing garbage people.
Now I can only try to examine how much of my behaviour is inflenced by my parents and how I grew up and every time I hold myself in check and realize that I was about to replicate a certain behaviour I can see, clearly, how a ton of the people in my life are going through the same thing only not realizing the trap they are in.
I am not better off for realizing this, I am still garbage. May it be that through Will I may transmutate my life. Everyone else has their own problems.
I think that the point I am trying to make is that I believe poverty used to make the impoverished person more attuned with spiritual life. The Vows of Silence and Vows of Poverty of christian monks. The Sanyasins in India who completely renounce every thought they have in their heads. I've even heard that for oriental magicians taboos are followed in order to attain in their sorcery.
I think you people ought to quit bickering and go out and try begging on the street for awhile. Just to see what its like.93 93/93
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Sir, my inner world applauds and thanks me for standing up and defending the principles of the Divine feminine against your one-sided war on the more sensitive functions of Reality. I am thanked for it, refreshed for it, and given new words daily for it.
What is the difference in impact on the hearer between these two statements: "The ideas you hold dearest are stupid," and "You are stupid"? I daily see very little difference in regard to the effects it has on others. It requires a strong and precise mind to tease out the difference. Personally, I experience it as a technicality behind which villains hide their misdeeds and oppression.
Maybe it works for you. I don't know. It doesn't at all for me. But I'll try to speak your own language to you and see how you react.
Labyrinthus, I consider it a dishonorable act of cowardice when a person shoots an insult around a corner instead of saying it to someone's face. I think that act is the very epitome of hypocrisy, especially when such a grand concept as the True Initiate is invoked to give it power, as one could never know how it may shape the mind of young initiates and aspirants according to one's own prejudices. Such an act would be deplorable to me. If I thought that someone's round-the-corner shaming resulted in the repression of necessary functions and temperaments within the universe into silence and inaction, thinking they are without worth and use, I would consider that a solipsistic act of manipulation bordering on black magick. I would consider their repression unhealthy for the survival of the whole as well as for the survival of the individual. Yes, individual minds must act to free themselves, but if I thought there was a more powerful mind on the other end programming them into submission and keeping them from the knowledge of their Will - and for something as meaningless and transient as financial prosperity - I would resist the power of that unbalanced perspective with vigor and vengeance. And I would resist it by destroying the mystique given to that opinion by nature of its being wrapped in the cloak of what the True Initiate would supposedly do.
You have your stars. I have mine. Our perspectives can both be completely "righteous" even if our perspectives are diametrically opposed. I appeal to the hexagram.
You're of course more right about me than I am happy to admit. I gave you that weapon when I told you I was Pisces Moon. Such is the weakness of my strengths. But the rules of manifestation dictate that we all share our part, even though our strengths are our very weaknesses and vice-versa. I wish you would be more conscious of your words and show more respect for the other principles and functions in the universe, even if they are different from you and follow other stars. Such is the nature of manifestation. The colors are many, but the light is one.
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@Frater LA said
""The ideas you hold dearest are stupid," and "You are stupid"? I daily see very little difference in regard to the effects it has on others."
For many people, yes, I see this too. But I expect those that I communicate with, especially serious students of the occult, to be able to not just see the difference but to actually be able to identify with their Inner Being and NOT the ideas bouncing around between their ears. This problem is worse generally, among females. At work we had to have a little meeting on this where the engineers, disproportionately men, were generally brutal with each other in these sorts of assessments and some of the women complained.
This reminds me of a story I heard a gym teacher relate. A male gym teacher was sick one day so the girl's teacher took the entire class and ran the kids through some energetic exercise. At the end she called them together and said, "You mostly made a good effort today but some of you were under-performing". She reported that by the phone calls from irate mothers she estimated that half the girls went home crying to mother about how the gym teacher "HUMILIATED ME in front of the whole class!" She said not one complaint came from the boy's side. She said that over the years she noted that when comments like that were made the boys would jab an elbow in the ribs of their friend and say, "she's talking about you, loser" and they would laugh. But for the girls it was practically the end of the world.
@Frater LA said
"Personally, I experience it as a technicality behind which villains hide their misdeeds and oppression. "
Whoa! I agree completely but your take on it is almost the exact opposite of the way I see it. Seriously, the exact opposite. Pandering to those who are easily offended and wallow in self deception hides misdeeds and facilitates oppression.
I find that in order to communicate more esoteric concepts a degree of semantic discipline is required, along with a degree of detachment and objectivity. Those who haven't learned to recognize the difference between their thoughts or ideas and their true Being simply aren't going to get it. Those who can recognize the separation but lack the requisite detachment are halfway there. Undue attachment to an idea and sensitivity to political correctness precludes communication of deeper concepts.
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Yes, I ponder both sides of this quite a lot myself. Please check your PMs.
Namaste.
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@Frater LA said
"You have your stars. I have mine. Our perspectives can both be completely "righteous" even if our perspectives are diametrically opposed."
Guess what?! I have a Pisces Moon too! What a coincidence.
But mine is trine to Saturn so over the years the cycles of Life have taught me to rein it in, and be judicious in its expression. I too was once an oh so compassionate young buck, registered democrat, proudly wallowing in fantasies about the way the world "should" be. But as the hands of time moved, Chronos-logical events moved me to the Center with a more sensible grasp of reality. ( I even donated hard cash to Amnesty International, People for the American Way, Am. Civil Liberties Union... !! 
)Now, if you want to neurotically attach some kind of underhanded insult to that, be my guest. Far be it from me to infringe on you free will to do so. But I will draw the line at excessive whining and abusive language directed straight at me because my expression of my feelings on the matter happens to bother you. Call me a coward if you like but all that usually does is broadcast more detail of one's insecurity complex and tyrannical, oppressive nature.
As for the "True Initiate" comments I made I can only say that in other circles that I travel in those would not be in any way offensive. If there is some sort of hallowed line that I crossed, If that was somehow sacrilegious by local Thelemic standards someone with the authority to speak on this matter, please educate me on this. Otherwise I'll just conclude that your are totally out to lunch.
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It is a very common disturbance on this forum that people come in claiming high grades of initiation and making pronouncements.
I try to discourage it, as it is usually much more of the character of which I have been accusing you and serves to give others very misogynistic and genocidal ideas about Thelema. I know it did me at first.
Make no mistake, I am still of the perspective that over-sensitivity/insensitivity are characterizations completely relative to the situation. Absolutely unshakeable on that. Either perspective, mercy or severity, held for some sense of inherent value alone, are flawed. Neither are the middle path.
Brother, I may be oversensitive, but... how to say this... You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and in the realm of the survival of nations and species, the functions of Unity are the balance to the Law of the Strong.
Be as strong and correct as you like, but if two weaker can combine to usurp your power, then your method is no longer correct as far as survival goes - the Unity that has bound the weaker individuals has conquered you. THIS is the point of advocating social justice. Unity also sometimes coddles and weakens. This is the point of advocating individual rights.
True, neither is correct all the time, and I try to keep these two in balance in my meditations. I have the leanings of my stars, of course, and I try to learn the lessons of Reality. If you have something to add to that, I'm interested.
Let the brother and sister stars judge.
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Excuse me. This is grown-folks business.
lol... Go think for yourself, we're enjoying ourselves here.
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@Frater LA said
"Excuse me. This is grown-folks business.
lol... Go think for yourself, we're enjoying ourselves here."Eggszacka-ackilly neighbor.
I mean, its not like this is the only channel on the internet, or even this forum. Heruraha offers a veritable smorgasbord of topics... or you could start your own if this one doesn't suit you.
Besides, there is deep Thelemic wisdom oozing from the very pores of threads like this and while it will annoy the gentiles the True Initiates
will follow closely. -
@Frater Aster Lux said
"Blah Blah Blah!
Why is it so important to argue (or "debate", if you rather) what you believe, if that's what you believe? ...and just what the hell is a "belief" anyway?
Any one ever read the comment that is published in Liber Al? Forgive me if this goes too far for all you literalists out there when I give my opinion, but I thought this is exactly the kind of discussion that should have been discouraged by such a statement.
I know we aren't discussing the book per se, but don't you think this is a little either sided for a thelemic discussion board?"
Actually, I consider it quite "both"-sided.
By the way, Frater, you have the right, of course, to challenge my oh-so-poignantly ironic hypocrisy and abuse.
Then you may judge for yourself whether I defend myself from reason and principle or merely from my own, highly questionable, subjective experience.
Of course, I may simply apologize. But to find out, you'll have to rejoin this futile discussion...
". . .while it will annoy the gentiles the True Initiates will follow closely."
Regardless, I wish you wouldn't go there. I did go absolutely bonkers once because of studying all of this stuff, and claims to authority of personal experience held absolutely no weight for me - not in the place where I was. That's why I like this place: "We place no reliance on virgin or pigeon; Our Method is Science, Our Aim is Religion"! Can't remember where that's from, but A.C. wrote that.
"Virgin and pigeon" are understood by me to represent the whimsical pronouncements of supposed authorities that cannot be backed up by (nor challenged by) science, reason, or principle. I think that's why I react so strongly against the whole "True Initiate" line. I had the same reaction when I saw it in "Training and Work," by the way, and I don't think I'm the only one who has at least a few criticisms of her for being a touch puritanical. Though - I have the utmost respect for what she's taught me, and there is great and deep wisdom in that book.
Personally, I think we understand each other.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the Law. Love under Will. -
@Frater Aster Lux said
"You won't know when I'm thinking for myself, because I won't be pushing my opinion.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
Yes, Frater.
And I am glad for the opportunity to apologize to you. I abused you after I asked for the very judgment you gave. Please forgive me. Zeal for my Mother's house consumed me, and I was far too in the spirit to recognize the third point of the Triangle.
I recognize you now.
Shalom and Namaste.
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@Frater LA said
"Personally, I think we understand each other."
Yes, Frater LA, a little... way better than most here. I have said what I think, and you have shared your thoughts.
We disagree but we have reached an understanding.
And while I point out oversensitivity I must say that I MUCH prefer that condition as opposed to others here, when it is mixed with your honesty and sincerity as well as the courage to confront the reality of a differing opinion that is well presented and to actually reply to what was actually said.
Thank you, for the honest exchange of thoughts and ideas.
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This little light of mine,
I'm gonna let it shine.
This little light of mine,
I'm gonna let it shine,
let it shine,
let it shine,
let it shine...Won't let my adversary [hwoowh] it out,
I'm gonna let it shine.
Won't let my adversary [hwoowh] it out,
I'm gonna let it shine,
let it shine,
let it shine,
let it shine...That is the will of my mother for me.
And my wife's not turned on if I'm not living that way.
My brothers won't respect me if I don't,
And parasites and cancers deserve their meals if I can't.
And my father... there's simply no describing my father,
Except to say that my heart knows the depth of his goodness.And so, Labyrinthus, I can't disrespect a man who shows me he knows that too. But by the name of Reality Itself, I will stand my ground for my own star's light and vector in the great sea of consciousness. We may be directly opposed to one another in time, but that is only one dimension, and a lower one. In the higher, we travel the same direction. Indeed, is there another?
So, I have done all this precisely so that I may understand you very well. You are, of course, completely free to have your own star's perspective, and while I defend the rights of other stars to understand for themselves what constitutes a True Initiate and to decide whether they have to be concerned about being as you describe one, you defend your right to speak from your own deep conviction that you know and choose to let your own truth challenge them. The same ideas carry over into other realms as well, I'm sure - the politics of poverty being one of them, being the origin of this discussion.
And that's absolutely fine. I concede your right, though I know you have absolutely no concern about that. I have no concern whatsoever if you concede my own. We are in agreement... lol...!
But you may find things less combative here if you understand that Thelema, and Temple and College of Thelema specifically (I have no legitimate right to speak for them, but I do read...), trains its students in a very ruthless and precise skepticism. We hold one another accountable to it constantly (speaking as a seeker only), and that's how we learn from one another while being free. Here, though you are well in the rights of your personal experience, your impulse to freely speak from your experience will be challenged night and day by those whose very stars have drawn them to a path of instruction that teaches them what we would both have them learn - through the method of skepticism.
Only, until you realize that you are constantly being stung, not by ignorance, but by holy skepticism, I'm afraid your words will cause you to be a bit of a scapegoat here. It takes a person a while to remember that someone can be enlightened through other methods, with other priorities. And there are vast levels of enlightenment, so who's to say? We are being trained to challenge the authority of Reality Himself should he appear before us, for that perception may be a deceit. Should we treat you any differently?
As a rather direct star told another yesterday when he wanted a Mulligan during a game of disc golf,
"If I let you do it, I gotta let my retarded brother do it too, and we'll be here all day..."
And, yes, I think we understand one another quite well. And I have also enjoyed meeting you and experiencing your honesty. It's been good to compare stars a little and be made to put my finger to my mouth occasionally at the Mystery. I have definitely enjoyed that.
Thank you as well.
*If I have spoken out of turn for Thelema or Temple of Thelema, please correct me. We're at the limits of my own knowledge.
If I am correct, you are very welcome here, Labyrinthus, but that holy skepticism may sting a little. I apologize. If you wish to partake of the strength of that kind of Unity, that is the price. This is the 93 current as I understand it. It's myth is the myth of the grail and the table in my own heart star's language. I like the direction they seem to flow. I'm pretty sure I'm already sucked in, and it is perfectly liberating and enlightened, and seeks truth with its whole heart, as I have tried to exemplify in my sometimes Saturninely demanding, oversensitive and melodramatic Sun in Libra, Moon in Pisces way. In my book, if you can respect that, you can respect Thelema. And here, I will put my finger to my lips, for I know nothing else but the madness of 333.
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"If then you do not make yourself equal to God, you cannot apprehend God; for like is known by like. Leap clear of all that is corporeal, and make yourself grow to a like expanse with that greatness which is beyond all measure; rise up above all time, and become eternal; then you will apprehend God. Think that for you nothing is impossible; deem that you too are immortal, and that you are able to grasp all things in your thought, to know every craft and every science; find yourself at home in the haunts of every living creature; make yourself higher than all heights, and lower than all depths; bring together in yourself all opposites of quality: heat and cold, dryness and fluidity; think that you are everywhere at once: on land, at sea, in heaven; think that you are not yet begotten, that you are in the womb, that you are young, that you are old, that you have died, that you are in the world beyond the grave; grasp in your thought all this at once, all times and places, all substances and qualities and magnitudes together; then you can apprehend God. But if you shut up your soul in your body, and abase yourself, and say, "I know nothing, I can do nothing, I am afraid of earth and sea, I cannot mount to heaven; I do not know what I was, nor what I shall be;" then, what have you to do with God? . . . For it is the height of evil not to know God; but to be capable of knowing God, and to wish and hope to know Him, is the road which leads straight to the Good . . . ." "
Hermes-Trismegistos, Corpus Hermeticum, xlii, John Everard translated from Ficino's Latin, in the British Library Collection, London: 1650. As read in Goddard, David. The Tower of Alchemy: An Advanced Guide to the Great Work. York Beach, ME: Samuel Weiser, Inc., p. 75-76.
All that to say... These are some metaphors that help me not to endlessly chase the wind. I seem to have all the strengths and weaknesses of being born and raised in that particular briar patch. If you have something better to tame the wind, what can I say? I'm just a student and a seeker.
Namaste.