"A Thelemic Utopia"
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Yes! Now we're in new territory...!
At least for me, the question is to what degree will one be ruled only by the semantic processing functions of his or her brain alone? -For therein lies a very subtle form of deception. There are other processes just as inherently necessary to the survival of the species, and their instinct is to contradict the semantic processes - or at least to make connections where the semantic processing functions are not able to do so because of their necessarily solely-linear perspective. Not that a solely global perspective can do anything but numb one to the present moment...
I lost that linear perspective once without being prepared for it other than in church, seminary, tarot meditation, and personal experience. Thanks to the organization system of tarot, I was able to find my way back down and stay out of the looney-bin and hospital.
I'm just saying that at some point, and for some questions, the semantic side of the brain has to be put in its place. The king does not rule alone.
Ever read My Stroke of Insight, by Jill Bolte Taylor, Ph.D.?
I've just begun it, but it comes highly recommended to me by very diverse individuals. I'm pretty sure the concepts are similar to what I've described here.
Peace.
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"so now what am I going to do?"
Brother I dont know if that statement is meant like "in your face, Iam right your wrong how can you respond to that" or if you are genuinely asking me as a fellow human being what I plan to do about my perceptions and reality in regard to consciousness.
I appreciate your willing to discuss things, but from what I read here you make an awfull lot of assumptions that people are going to understand what you are trying to communicate.
I try my best to speak in simple clear words, so that my meaning is not lost.
I understand that power lies in words, and I choose my words very carefully (even though I do use a lot of them).I am not here on this forum to argue, nor am I interested in changing anyones point of view.
I am not here to attack you, or anyone else.
I am genuinely curious, and strive to understand as best as I am capable.
I am here to share what has been shared with me.
Take what you like and leave the rest."Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it...., unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense" -Siddhartha Guatama
I live each moment of my life honoring a covenent I have made with Gaia. I dedicated myself to Her decades ago, and She has guided me without fail. I trust no one, or nothing unless they come to me through Her guidance.
The information on the financial system in America, the reallity of corporations, and the meaning behind the uses of all CAPS, I offered because I have found it not only valid but useful in my day to day. If you enjoy your reality then who am I to deny you. I had parts of my reality that I didnt enjoy, and I found a way to change it.Did you bother to even look at the book, or did you just want to debate?
So thats what I am doing, and shall be doing....
but after watching that video Takamb shared I think I shall also make myself one of those helmets he is sporting in his avatar....
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@Veronica said
"Brother I dont know if that statement is meant like "in your face, Iam right your wrong how can you respond to that" or if you are genuinely asking me as a fellow human being what I plan to do about my perceptions and reality in regard to consciousness.
"It was a rhetorical question regarding the Crowley quote that it followed.
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@Takamba said
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Take this for what you will. Personally, I find it very entertaining:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg"
Blocked in the UK for copyright reasons. Any alternate links, or a description?
@Frater LA said
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Ever read My Stroke of Insight, by Jill Bolte Taylor, Ph.D.?
I've just begun it, but it comes highly recommended to me by very diverse individuals. I'm pretty sure the concepts are similar to what I've described here.
"Truly fascinating story. Whats the book like?
She lectures on the experience here: www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html -
It's a neat-o video of a host inviting an MBA duo to come up with a draft advertisement for a taxidermy chain. After they come up with a draft, the host opens up the envelope that was on the table the whole time, and reveals that their design was nearly identical to the one in the envelope.
The duo had been unconsciously influenced by carefully choreographed design element cues during their taxi ride to the office.
It really underscores a great point. Adam Smith capitalism is based on an ideal universe, filled with independent people who make logical decisions. Which is something that any first year psychology/sociology student knows to be pretty magical thinking.
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Re: My Stroke of Insight
I've seriously only read the preface so far.
I've skimmed the book. It seems very user friendly. She IS a neuro-anatomist, so you do get some brain anatomy and function, but from what I've encountered, she's a very human and down to earth author. A teacher at heart.
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@Poe said
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@Takamba said
"Take this for what you will. Personally, I find it very entertaining:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg"
Blocked in the UK for copyright reasons. Any alternate links, or a description?
"
It was a segment of an episode of Darren Brown's show called "Mind Control." Chances are, if he interests you, you've seen it.
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Thanks.
And yes, I have seen it.
If you get chance to see the recorded live show "Something wicked this way comes" then I can recommend it.
The show is a compendium of his techniques and the reveal at the end is simply masterful.His book "Tricks of the Mind" is an eye-opening read too. Though the second half is mostly an unnecessary Atheism-Fundamentalist rant against all that is "Spiritual" that many occult oriented people might find short-sighted, the first half is an interesting history of his chosen fields of mental-techniques.
@Frater LA
Hope you enjoy the read, her story had a real impact when I first heard it. A review would be welcome. -
@Poe said
"Thanks.
And yes, I have seen it.
If you get chance to see the recorded live show "Something wicked this way comes" then I can recommend it.
The show is a compendium of his techniques and the reveal at the end is simply masterful.His book "Tricks of the Mind" is an eye-opening read too. Though the second half is mostly an unnecessary Atheism-Fundamentalist rant against all that is "Spiritual" that many occult oriented people might find short-sighted, the first half is an interesting history of his chosen fields of mental-techniques.
@Frater LA
Hope you enjoy the read, her story had a real impact when I first heard it. A review would be welcome."I may look into the book, but I own Something Wicked This Way Comes on DVD. It's a blast, I enjoy it several times a year.
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This thread in and of itself disproves the idea of "democracy,"--or any kind of organization comprised of more than one unit.
The only corporate bodies which are able to retain their status as such do so because they conform to the laws of nature. The ideas of individuality are only true of themselves insofar as they conform to the original unity.
Therefore, an entity governed by as many conflicting elements as possible is only too likely to fail. Experience proves that intelligence deteriorates in the presence of lesser intelligences. For example: a crowd gone amuck in city streets requires brute force to be restrained. At the same time, greater intelligences are cable of wielding the masses at Will, for example: Hitler by his words inflamed the German people to war.
It is seen, then, that the "many," as such, can never exist as such of their own accord, and require a guiding hand. Even so, these individuals, stupid as they may be, require the illusion of personal control. In order to placate these unwilling disunities, democracy was invented and branded the salvation of man.
To wit: any body which lacks unity is bound to deteriorate, be this a corporate body, human body, or an ailing gofer.
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Of course, JPF, I'm not aware of Democracy existing at the present. What we have in today's world are various Republics (including the United States) which is simply defined as a government of representatives. And for unity to exist in such a governmental form, we (the represented) must trust in our elected representatives (and of course, must trust in the voting process). To do either of these requires either great amounts of ignorance to current events, or greater amounts of education and another kind of trust in something greater than ourselves (perhaps some can find that trust in "the rule of Law," some may find that trust "in God" or "Providence," in "the system," or something as yet I haven't named including "karma" and whatever). But don't mistake any thing as "Democracy" as that is certainly what it is not and certainly not very likely to be successful (because it requires either a greater ignorance or greater education among the masses than Republics do).
Also, your words reminded me of the opening paragraphs of Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma:
THE TWELVE-INCH RULE AND THE COMMON GAVEL.
FORCE, unregulated or ill-regulated, is not only wasted in the void, like that of gunpowder burned in the open air, and steam unconfined by science; but, striking in the dark, and its blows meeting only the air, they recoil and bruise itself. It is destruction and ruin. It is the volcano, the earthquake, the cyclone;-not growth and progress. It is Polyphemus blinded, striking at random, and falling headlong among the sharp rocks by the impetus of his own blows.
The blind Force of the people is a Force that must be economized, and also managed, as the blind Force of steam, lifting the ponderous iron arms and turning the large wheels, is made to bore and rifle the cannon and to weave the most delicate lace. It must be regulated by Intellect. Intellect is to the people and the people's Force, what the slender needle of the compass is to the ship--its soul, always counselling the huge mass of wood and iron, and always pointing to the north. To attack the citadels built up on all sides against the human race by superstitions, despotisms, and prejudices, the Force must have a brain and a law. Then its deeds of daring produce permanent results, and there is real progress. Then there are sublime conquests. Thought is a force, and philosophy should be an energy, finding its aim and its effects in the amelioration of mankind. The two great motors are Truth and Love. When all these Forces are combined, and guided by the Intellect, and regulated by the RULE of Right, and Justice, and of combined and systematic movement and effort, the great revolution prepared for by the ages will begin to march. The POWER of the Deity Himself is in equilibrium with His WISDOM. Hence the only results are HARMONY.
It is because Force is ill regulated, that revolutions prove failures. Therefore it is that so often insurrections, coming from those high mountains that domineer over the moral horizon, Justice, Wisdom, Reason, Right, built of the purest snow of the ideal after a long fall from rock to rock, after having reflected the sky in their transparency, and been swollen by a hundred affluents, in the majestic path of triumph, suddenly lose themselves in quagmires, like a California river in the sands.
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Isn't even the idea of any kind of "Utopian" Society is a symptom of dualistic thinking?
In believing that good can exist as separate from evil?Also, a lot of this discussion seems to be being had through a Patriarchal lens, with no view to our Matriarchal past.
Has anyone read Reichs "The Invasion of Compulsory Sex Morality"?
There was much in the Trobriand way of life to admire.And what about through the lens of no higher authority to which to appeal, fatherly or motherly?
@ JPF
I'd see the ideas you posted as being from the "Freudian" viewpoint of analysis, that people are essentially incapable of good (as seen through the negative fruits of "the crowd", ignoring the many positive fruits born when people unite) and so society's role is to guide or control them to make them (*shudder) "normal".
What about the "Reichian" viewpoint that sees people as essentially good and that it is society itself with its restrictions on natural behaviour that breed psychic illness in the individual?
Whenever I see questions like these come up about "the crowd" I always try to strive to see things through both perspectives as I believe both have elements of the truth in them to a greater or lesser degree. -
I came across a copy of a book by a Stephen Flowers Ph.D called Fire and Ice which is a book about a german teutonic magickal order called The Brotherhood of Saturn or Fraternitas Saturni, which was apparently founded/ run by a Gregor A. Gregorius. I didnt see anything on this forum here regarding this, but apparently this order worked with AC, and not only accepted the Law of Thelema but.....
they are "concerned with activating the Law of Thelema on this planet.....it is taught that the higher sence of the Law of Thelema involves the binding of humanity closer to the Saturian influence...."
Dont know if anyone here has read the book or knows about this branch, I found the information very interesting to say the least, and backed up other information that I had deduced on my own.
just throwing that out there, some of you may like to read it as it does claim AC guidance and approval.
I love kids, I love playing with them, and engaging with them, and watching them, and talking with them......
But I can only take so much Barney Blarney before I feel like I am becoming a babbling idiot myself.
So while I get much love and laughter from children, I must actively work to maintain my hard won maturity.
If I dont "recharge" my intellect with adult companionship, conversation and Love, I would soon deteriorate and not be a proper care giver, a proper guide, a proper nurturer to the children. While I understand that life is blessed when you have that childlike wonder and unabashed creativity, I see that it must be tempered by Will.I will add that there are few things in this world that I find more attractive and stimulating then a properly worded sentence. Sometimes after reading the words here......I feel like I should smoke a cigarette.....
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@Poe said
"What about the "Reichian" viewpoint that sees people as essentially good and that it is society itself with its restrictions on natural behaviour that breed psychic illness in the individual?
Whenever I see questions like these come up about "the crowd" I always try to strive to see things through both perspectives as I believe both have elements of the truth in them to a greater or lesser degree."Though I spent a great deal of time with Mr. Freud as a boy, my ideas are directly inspired by the pinciples of the Law. The same ideas apply as much to the individual as to society: any element in conflict with its Will is bound to come into conflict with other Wills.
Freedom for All is a very nice notion in theory, but only insofar as it allows a being to enact their Will. Who are we to say that the majority of mankind hasn't incarnated to balance karmic debt? In that case, mass liberation would be an insult to Nature, as it may very well be a person's place to suffer and then die. It sound cruel, but were we not restricted by our "humanity," we would realize that the Universe is a cold, cruel place.
Yes, I know: "Every man and woman is a star." Most--including Crowley--display their ignorance of the Law by taking this to mean "Every man and woman is equal," or some such nonsense. In such a case, how do we account for the diseased, the retarded, and the insane? It simply means this: every human being is a microcosm, and should be respected as such. Yet who are we to say what is the Will of any Being? This beggar weeping in the gutter: perhaps it is his Karma to die cold and estranged. The child who dies of cancer at the age of seven: is it our place to say it was rather her Will to live? Tragic? Oh yes, as sorrowful as moving into a new house, or getting a fresh car. As Jesus says: "The fear of suffering is the beginning of all ignorance."
Furthermore, the "average man," when confronted with the Divine, would prefer to remain a dumb beast. In just the same way, observe how man's lack of understanding has lead us to the brink of destruction as a species. Sometimes people forget the fact that we've used up enormous, staggering resources developing the ability to destroy ourselves.
It's all quite amusing once ideas of "dividuality" are eliminated. In the last analysis, all is as it ever was and should be.
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That may be true JPF. But when a speculation on the nature of the afterlife arrives at a conclusion that fully supports a status quo for the wealthy and powerful, it is suspect. It's no different than the little mind-games we play with ourselves to convince ourselves that we are doing what is best.
Just because a person is in once circumstance at a period in their life, doesn't mean that it's necessarily their true will to be in that state their entire life, or that their whole life should be one big karmic debt payoff program.
Justification is beside the point anyway.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"That may be true JPF. But when a speculation on the nature of the afterlife arrives at a conclusion that fully supports a status quo for the wealthy and powerful, it is suspect."
Who speculates?
I couched those ideas in speculative form for the sake of the ignorant. Power can be won, and wealth earned, if one Wills. So the average man is too stupid to investigate his nature, realize his abilities, and act in accordance with his nature--what odds? Any human being with a shred of courage and intelligence is able to raise themselves to whatever heights they Will, providing they act in accord with Nature.
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Power and wealth can also be obtained through murder and stealing.
People can live contrary to their true wills, and can hurt each other. You have to acknowledge that this happens at least some of the time.
Otherwise, true will is just a meaningless tautology.
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"Otherwise, true will is just a meaningless tautology."
I kind of understand it as just accepting your own preferences and their function in the universe and going with it. The gods play their sport through us. We are bread for God's sacred feast. Figs plucked from a tree in the Garden. When I need to go there, I can find myself there sometimes, but not always. And when I can't, I still have to worry about things like eating and pooping and working.
The argument seems to always retreat from itself. Learn to oppose every thought, and all that. If it gets concrete, force it to the higher (yes, I'm guilty). If it gets too abstract, force it to the lower. We keep chasing this discussion up and down through the planes. Or, if I'm using the wrong words, does that make sense?
Personally, I think our own ability to do this with this argument demonstrates once again that a concrete "Thelemic utopia" necessarily depends on the time, geography, culture, circumstances, etc. for what it would look like. In fact, I am convinced we already live in one: Three-pointed balance of power, one point judges between the other two. Our whole system of government reflects occult geometry, and the rules are flexible enough to adapt it to whatever comes next - as long as the people can be made to agree upon it - and I chose those words carefully.
So, I suggest another thread, but you may ignore this if you like.
What if other lifeforms are already evolving and we don't see it? We argue about corporations being "persons," but do they not function like amoeba? And aren't amoeba the kind of hunger-led organisms that will deplete their food supply and die? Are they another form of life that needs to be controlled? I'm not worried so much about creating a Thelemic utopia as much as losing the one we already live in.
"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
"Personally, I wonder if the evolution and empowerment of another, larger (but less adaptable) form is occurring without our realization. Corporations are about to be equal to nations. And, yes, there are Thelemites on either side. And, yes, either can make the case that they are seeking to preserve human life on Earth. And that currently puts me personally on both sides of the issue.
But that's just me wanting to evolve the discussion. Perhaps I am simply waking up to a very old one. I can't tell.
lol... The future looks like Star Wars to me.
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Here at a certain point I know that several of you (if not all of you in this thread) have not read Magick Without Tears and The Law is for All (I'm sure any edition of it will suffice) for to say that Crowley believed every "man and woman equal" is a farce. Quite frankly he writes in Magick Without Tears (I'll beg you to seek it out where for your self) that although Aiwass has spoken that every man and every woman is a star, not every so-call homo-sapient is a man or a woman. He explains his thesis on this very topic this entire thread is about in his commentaries to the Law - so I suggest you read them before accusing him of having an opinion. Meanwhile, feel free to discuss your own opinions on this topic - but let's not lose sight that all we can have are theories, wishes, and opinions.