"A Thelemic Utopia"
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NO, what they actually said was that we are all supposed to be whiners... but that just seems so tough and I don't wanna
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"So allow us to each to seek our own orbits by dispensing with this pain once-and-for-all by declaring Labrynthus the winner of the penis match and Froclown and anyone else who wants can declare themselves winners of the soccer game - because I think someone once said we are all supposed to be winners or something silly like that."
if I would have known it was a penis match I would have brought a strap on......
Seriously, thank you for this discussion, and I hope you liked Momma Wolf's lilttle song...
I do have a favorite dream.after little league ball the players have to line up and meet the opposing team, shaking hands with each, and saying good game...
when you have a bunch of children doing this, it sounds remarkibly like a bunch of bees humming....
"good game, good game, good game...."
they say it builds character,
I say the kids say it so they can get over it and get on to the after game party.. -
lol...
Good game!
Seriously.
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@Froclown said
"Right, so even the slave class who are unable to seek out the ordeals and mastery of their own WILL, are still acting according to their natural orbit and function by serving, and the difference between old and new aeon slavery is that the new aeon masters work to provide labor and opportunity to as close an approximation of the right and proper function of the slave, as anyone can ascertain for anyone else. "
Indeed.
Rather enlightened words for a native of Illinois.
Most fail to realize that the slave is always enslaved of his own Will. One needs a certain kind of stupidity to choose a life of addiction, manual labor, poverty, etc. over a life of opulence. And this opulence need not be merely internal.
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"The consequence of the «do your own thing» democracy is the intoxication of the greater part of the population which is not capable of discriminating for itself, which, when not guided by a power and an ideal, all too easily loses sense of its own identity." (Julius Evola)
Now, what could be more necessary knowing and doing your TRUE WILL, than a sense of your own identity, And seeing as the sense of one's own identity is discerned by the measure of a powerful leader who represents and reveals an Ideal, (Culture and tradition) by which one finds ones place in a wider existence. It would seem that a Thelemic society must have a clear tradition, a culture of ideals and it must have leaders who exemplify those ideals, and thus command the respect and loyalty.
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"Most fail to realize that the slave is always enslaved of his own Will. "
Could you please explain?
Personally, I would say that the slave is always enslaved by his own blindness to his True Will, but that True Will itself is necessarily always liberating, by definition.
I am against those who would perpetuate blindness for their own gain, which has always been my perspective on Froclown's argument. Not once in almost two years have I been able by hook or by crook to get him to describe how we change from the status quo to what he envisions.
And if what he envisions is so different from what currently exists, then why? What change does he suggest bringing? Mostly from what I can tell, he suggests a reorganization of society into castes. He used to refer constantly to the fantasy novel series Gor.
It is the reorganization of society into castes that I constantly question him about. According to what standard of reorganization...? Rich and poor? It already exists, and is ever as it was.
If you can get some sort of standard for the reorganization of the American democracy into castes from him, I'd like to inspect it very, very closely...
Until then, I will continue to disagree with him about his understanding of slaves and kings (a concept he frequently uses interchangeably with the term "masters," along with his talk of social revolution).
Your thoughts?
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The traditional castes are
The Initiated Kings
The Pious Preists
The Honorable Warriors
The Shrewd Merchants
The Vulgar Peasant.The peasants are like Nietzsche's last man, they have no higher ambitions beyond their immediate survival needs, they are ruled by base desires and tend to butt heads. Communism in it's final stage is the rule of peasants. They have no link to a higher purpose or authority, just a gray basic equality.
The Merchants have profit in mind and thus they are ruled by market forces. They organize companies and such, But they have no greater purpose than profit. This is commercial capitalism at it's best.
The warriors are like the kinghts the police officers they believe in justice and laws of honor which they enforce and bring order to society. When the warriors are strong the shrewdness of the merchant class is kept in check and the peasants are kept peaceful, to a degree, by use of force.
The Priests, these teach and impose moral traditions, it is from these morals than the Warriors distill their codes of honor. The Priests, are keepers and transmitters of the traditional customs, manors, ways of the people. Thus the peasants informed by the priests, are instilled organized into a community, where head butting is replaced by sharing and division of labor. So that co-operation can fulfill the people with purpose and a link to something larger than themselves.
The initiated Kings, then are both the highest expression of the Traditional values and customs, they are like the arch-priests. But the Kings do not merely passively keep the traditions, the King is a part of tradition, the priests transmit the ways of the God's the King is one of the God's he is an expression of Tradition.
The Priest is to Magister Templi as the King is to Magus.
cordeliaforlear.blogspot.com/2009/04/regression-of-castes-by-julius-evola.html
My interest in expressing relations to Gor, is that Gor if you take out the sorta BDSM aspects and look at the structure of the caste system, it is very much like the model above.
Gor has
White caste Preists - Creators of traditions who talk directly to the "Gods" the Sardar
Blue Caste Scribes - keepers of records and educators of children and judges.
Green Caste Doctors - keep people immortal.
Yellow caste builders - Create cities and roads
Red Caste warriors - Protect the city and it's honor.Merchants then are a peasant class, or low class. The merchant is never respected the same as a warrior, or doctor or scribe, no matter how rich he is, nor how penniless the higher caste might be.
You immediately jump to the economic class system we have now as proof we already have a caste system. This economic based system is a result of money taking a higher value than honor, health piety, tradition, etc. That is a clear indication than Modern American society is under a regression of the Caste system where the Merchant class values of shrewdness and profit, are considered the highest or most important. See the Ferengi of Star Trek.
It is in the interest of the merchant class to dismantle the caste system, to teach equality, and to wipe out all tradition and higher values and common norms, etc which create cultural identity. It is much easier to sell things to people when they lack hight values and believe they can buy identity and purpose from the store. Also when they have no higher values, they have nothing to pre-occupy them thus they will buy more pass time activities. They also have less sense of personal integrity as part of the community and thus will buy products which may be of questionable origin or may have harmful side effects to others. Get rid of Honor and the police force are easily bribed, or the congress lobbied.
Creating a casteless society of pariahs, is good business for the merchant class. The merchants need to be kept in check by warriors, warriors need to be guided by priests, priests need to be in communication with an initiated King, at least from time to time.
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So... are you suggesting a mythical framework to lay over the global "chessboard" where Queens, Popes, Uncle Sams, Henry Fords, and Apples are the grand personas in play - the members of the castes? Because I'm not sure if I'm really sold yet, but the concept does help me think differently in terms of the "grand game," so to speak. I like the interdependence. I like the sort of Star Wars/Dune angle... lol.. It kind of gives the chess pieces their rules.
Eh.. Maybe I'm finally hearing you. Kinda sounds kind of like a "kingdom not of this world."
Careful preaching that one...
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What I suggest is that the major change is in the Kings.
That is the Traditional Kings were initiates into the mysteries, that is into the tradition via the formula of the Father figure who dies and is reborn. The values of this formula taught by the priests, and upheld by the warriors, in fact according to Max Webber, even the economic class is the result of protestant values.What Thelema shows is that there will be a new type of King, that is initiated by the formula of the Child. The new priests are the officers of the mass, that convey the values, links to nature and tradition without reliance on superstitions, and no notion of a vicarious or mediated relationship between the aspirant and deity or the mysteries etc. The peasant is encouraged to see his role as an expression of his WILL and not a result of sin or unworthiness, as if his life is punishment for sins of his fathers. The peasant is respected and aided in doing his WILL as much as any other. The warriors or knights that enforce the law of Thelema are set more to help each individual grow and find a place to fit into society and vary rarely set on punishing anyone's "wrong doing". The Merchant class under the law are not seeking profit for profit sake, they perfect their art of getting the right product to the right consumer, they work not out of greed, but because it is their WILL to buy and sell, to the end that he is honored by honoring the needs of his brothers, to the end that the community as a whole is improved and manifests the glory of order, and its King to the world, to the accomplishment of the great work. The masses (Slaves) or men of earth or whatever, are those who do the chores and the necessary tasks of the community, like growing food, cooking, cleaning, plumbing, etc. They each like the merchant may say WILL, to themselves as an encouragement and to always remember that they work according to their own WILL, to manifest the glory of the order, for the good of their brothers, and towards the accomplishment of the Great work.
Thus the use of WILL, in place of prayer, is more effective it gets people working together out of positive love of each other, rather than negative fear of God and desire to do penance for sin. The Gnostic mass in place of the Catholic mass, helps to affirm brotherhood, link to a lineage of esoteric thinkers, the relation between the sexes and the sun and moon, which creates a sense of being part of nature, not opposed to it. Other rituals like Resh and celebrations of the saints and seasons also aid this. Not to mention the initiation rituals. Where I would think P.I. marks the cross over into the higher castes. If we are talking OTO. and 5=6 grade in the A.'.A.'. (Though A.'.A.'. seems more set on individual aspirations to Kingship, not a specific social order)
Basically it is the rituals that transform mere individuals into persons.
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Might an idea of true-based-societal roles exist without necessarily taking a specific kind of form? Mightn't the society that the people contribute towards resemble any number of models at any given place, time and culture? Couldn't this even function in a place with fairly flat distribution of wealth and quality of life? So the biggest mistake would be for a person to misunderstand their own role. For example, they might be a warrior with an idealist constitution, ready to serve society. But they might imagine themselves to be a king, and try to impose there own mistaken vision of form - when that's really a king's job.
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Man, I'm a romantic at heart too. There's a lot in what you say that makes sense, but I'll reveal my heart to you. There's this:
"According to time and circumstances, the society of sages communicated unto the exterior societies their symbolic hieroglyphs, in order to attract man to the great truths of their Sanctuary.
But all exterior societies subsist only by virtue of this interior one. As soon as external societies wish to transform a temple of wisdom into a political edifice, the interior society retires and leaves only the letter without the spirit. It is thus that secret external societies of wisdom were nothing but hieroglyphic screens, the truth remaining inviolable in the Sanctuary so that she might never be profaned.
In this interior society man finds wisdom and with her All--- not the wisdom of this world, which is but scientific knowledge, which revolves round the outside but never touches the centre (in which is contained all strength), but true wisdom, understanding and knowledge, reflections of the supreme illumination. -An Account of A∴ A∴ sub figurâ XXXIII *"
At some point, there comes a necessary link between the initiatory society and the power of the kings. Until someone can find a way to bridge the gap between the man who wrote the above words and the man everybody thinks came to create some form of ultimate political power, I'm gonna argue against it. I don't know what else to do. In this book, he's described too clearly the substance of my own heart, if not the present purity or refinement.
So, until then, I'm gonna put in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail, and I'm going to laugh at us one more time, doing all of this again.
"King Arthur: I am your king.
Peasant Woman: Well, I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Peasant Woman: Well, how'd you become king, then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king.
Dennis the Peasant: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis the Peasant: You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you! Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.
Arthur: [grabs Dennis] Shut up! Will you shut up?!
Dennis: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: [shakes Dennis] Shut up!
Dennis: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!
Arthur: Bloody Peasant!"And then I'm going to put in Life of Brian and maybe cry a little bit. But for sure laugh.
Peace.
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Ah, yes the account of the A.'.A.'. which is taken directly from "the cloud upon the sanctuary" this is a Christian mystic account of the same Traditionalism that Evola and his line are talking about. The King is initiated into the inner sanctary and reflects or transmits those values to the external society over which he rules. In the cloud upon the Sanctuary, the word Prophet is used where Evola uses the term King and Crowley the term Magus. It is dscribed that one must develope special faculties to be aware of the "spiritual" nature by all three authors. It is also claimed that there is a secret or subtle link between all who have attained these faculties where by they act towards the same goal but express that goal in a unique way depending on the conditions of their own flesh, their race, class, culture etc. that is Krishna expressed the same inner truth as Mohammet only they seem externaly divergent because the same "spiritual" truth manifests externally in different guised to suit the mentality of the race which it is assigned to.
These Prophets or Kings are the linc between the appearance and the truth, the world of the Gods, archetypes, anscestors, etc and the mundane world of external society. They embody the trnscendent realm in rituals, customs, etc. the Tradition which are symbolic acts which render the reality which is not seen by the un-initiated into a visible form. The priests then keep that visible tradition, and admuinister the virtues of that tradition to the masses, thus aligning them with the "secret sanctary" or the "Great white brotherhood" or the "Hyperborean race" or Atlantis, or Thule, or the kingdom of heaven. All different ways of expressing the same inner idea. When the times have changes significantly, that the rituals are no longer effective at creating that connection to the archtypical world, the people lose faith in the religion and rituals. This collapse has been called modernism, the failure of the enlightnement, God is dead. As Yeats put it "the Falcon can no longer hear the falconer"; Nothing is True; and nihilism, hedonism, psychological distress, postmodernism, appear as the values of the peasant class, ie the most mundane, the men of earth with not the slightest faculty to connect to the archtypical, who do not even seek attainment. The peasant are the last men as Nietzsche calls him the "last man, an apathetic creature, who has no great passion or commitment, who is unable to dream, who merely earns his living and keeps warm."
Again in Nietzsche the Prophet or King is described as the ubermensch and bulk of humanity is describes as those who are between the peastant lastman and the unbermensche King. Nietzsche was aware that the Christrian formula had failed, that few really believd in it, many gave lipservice at church out of fear or habit, and that the teachings where no longer relevent to people. That all the values of the past were crumbling away, and it was time for a new formula a new major prophet of the new order. He cast himself in the Role of the Hermit, directly from the Tarot card. His Mad Man, who carries a lantern and fortells doom that others are unable to see and they mock him. He forsees the Tower but the masses have no spiritual vision and so they see no economic hardship at the present and no violence approaching and chace him away as a madman, as they do not understand spiritual dangers. the destruction of values and traditions.
so again we have in Crowley the account of a violent ending to the old aeon and a new aeon appearing, in Evola we have the regression of castes that collaspe society and a new golden age appears form the ruins, in the Cloud upon the sanctuary, we have the periodic changing of the rituals where the old shells are religion are swept away, in Nietzsche we have the death of God and the birth of a new type of man/a new type of king. In Theosophy we have the council where Jesus is a board member but his role if interchangable (Equinox of the Gods) the same in the "I-Am" movement.
I could go on like this, showing that though the many external religions are different, there is one secret inner tradition that unites them all, where through True initiation and succession from the previous initiates, Kings are made that direct the course of society and history, creating societies based on individual links to that inner tradiditon.
So to say Crowley was some kind of radical liberal thinker is not particulrally correct. Thelema is rather left wing, in traditionalist circles, but it is in no way modern progressive liberalism (A endancy towards brining all down o the equal level of biology, ie to the peasant level) Rather Crowley was a prophet of the larger tradition and one link in a chain that goes back to antiquity, often associated with king Melchizedek.
In any event it is perfectly reasonable to include in your thelemic studies the cannon of Traditionalism, and it is not reasonable to attempt to separate Crowley from this linneage of which he obviously included himself and derived his claims to authority by relation to his role in that tradition.
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Okay, these are my real questions:
It sounds like you assume that this is not, and has not always been, the current state of affairs. Should kings and heads of state publicly submit their degrees for approval or execration by the masses? It would seem to me that initiations and Orders are secret for this very purpose. Any man or woman is free to take initiation of their own accord, to the degree they choose, to the degree of secrecy they choose.
No one official body can authorize all monarchs, prime ministers, and presidents together because as soon as this body were put in charge of that office, they would instantaneously and by definition become a "political edifice," become the focus of ambition, intrigue, and political maneuvering, causing the A.'.A.'. that inspired this particular, Crowley-authored, A.'.A.'. document to withdraw, leaving only the shell (qliphoth) remaining.
So, the way that I understand it, in your post-apocalyptic version of the world, where there is an official, recognizable, initiating body for monarchies - this same body will be only a shell of an initiatory body, disconnected from the particular A.'.A.'. that inspired Crowley's document. However, this same shell of an initiatory body will be placed in charge of the spiritual instruction and psychological training of the monarch - leaving the monarch to make a true connection with the A.'.A.'. on his or her own.
Or, at least that's the kind of thing I'm trying to understand about your ideas. For the process to work like you envision it on a practical level, it would seem to me that the A.'.A.'. would have to become the one thing it can't become while still preserving its core nature.
So, while I guess you can make an argument for going ahead and doing it anyway, from this particular A.'.A.'. document, Liber 33, I don't think you can associate it in any way with the A.'.A.'.
The way I envision it, the A.'.A.'. exists in the heart of the Sun, and in the heart of every human being, slave or free, and in the heart of every star. The slaves must be as free to participate in it knowingly as the monarch, and its purity should be defended from the corrupt machinations of of politics.
Thoughts?
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Politics just means the rule of the people, it has come to mean underhanded tricks focused on securing one's own power and title, and that is what politics must become in a democracy where securing the votes is more important than upholding the values, rituals and customs of the people.
I never said that the Initiating order would destroy itself by getting involved politically, everything that anyone ever does is ultimately political. A human alone is nothing and might as well fall to dust. The value that a human has is found in the contribution to a greater social cause. Thus all this "it's just my personal spiritual path" nonsense is pointless. The purpose of religion is not to give bliss to individuals, it is to create an ideal which binds the aspirations and moral of the people to a common identity and purpose. This lesser part of this is that each individual finds a place and purpose in which it work out it's individual character, a niche in which it fulfill it's Will.
Now the A.'.A.'. is a prime example, one criteria for advancement from 7=4 to 8=3 is that the initiate put forth his exposition on the workings of the universe and develop a school of thought, a philosophy, religion etc, and tend to a school of adherents. Thus, the initiate is already building on external order with members, of course it is still under the Original Magus, it more or less a franchise order or sect. The Magister then annihilates all of his personality and basically becomes the spirit of the order itself, he must kill off all outside influences and be fully dedicated to that sect or school of thought. The Magus then, has the option to create a totally system that is not directly linked to the old one.
If we look at Crowley as an example the A.'.A.'. was his work as a Golden Dawn Adept, while it was the O.T.O project which became his Magus work. It was after he attained Magus that he realized the true importance of the O.T.O as on external social order. A political order. Though the what we term as political all the mud slinging and such is not what it really means. An organic social order is one ruled by a leader the members choose to follow because he expresses fully the qualities they want to develop in themselves. Honesty, skill, confidence, integrity, leadership under pressure, etc.
The King does not need the people, they need him. Thus he is not corrupted into abusing his power, if he were to be less of a man, the people would abandon him. The king should embody Thelemic values Pride, courage, self confidence, lust for life. Not the Christian values, modesty, fear of the lord, self debasement, obsession with sexual impurity, etc.
So there may be many Thelemic orders, nations, communities, not just the O.T.O.
As we read in Liber B vel Magi the expression of the word of the Magus will reflect his Race, the character of the people his word rules over. Jew, Hindu, or Islam, etc. Thus those who attain Magus, would speak the word on which would be founded social orders under the greater aegis of Thelema.We have Parsons, Nema and Aquino all making such claims. (I am not sure of the legitimacy) but one would expect to say many new organic society systems appearing as the current old aeon systems begin to crumble.
The kings need not publicly express their grade or their link to the school in which they are initiated, by their fruits ye shall know them. The masses don't need to know anything about it, you assume they do because your head is stuck in democracy. In an aristocratic system the masses should not be informed of things having to do with higher class leadership. It will only confuse and upset them and encourage paranoids and busybodies to stick their noses into business that is not appropriate for them.
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Let me chew on that one.
Enjoy your 4th, man...!
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As yes, the anniversary of independence for a nation that defines itself by what we will not follow.
A rag tag rebellion of a nation caught up in breaking all bonds of service and order, that it's people can only define themselves by what they buy at the stores. Where values are in the style of one's close not kept in the heart nor expressed in action. Where one's honor and one's bank account are synonyms. Where addiction, promiscuity, gluttony and rudeness are promoted by the media as social values, even while the less vocal laws and statutes still penalize these actions. A land where no one is better than anyone else, except the hucksters who sell lies from Hollywood. Were the people choose the leaders and the leaders are all crooks and degenerates. Where people watch reality TV shows about incompetent people doing things that the people should be doing rather than watching TV. America where we take pride in fast food and fast cars and we regulate trans fats and speed limits. America a nation of conflicting values where no one wants to follow anyone, nor respect history, the elderly, race, intelligence, or skill, but we respect the fashion trends and tabloid news.One might think America would have been better off under the British monarchy, if not for the fact that the UK is just like US.
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Brother, we would not be allowed the liberty of this public discussion were it not so.
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The so called liberty in America is only allowed because the people are too complacent and apathetic to do anything about their opinions. The worst anyone does is shout their opinions loudly in protest, in the police sanctioned protest zones, believing that if the government sees they are unhappy it will stop doing those things. As if it is the happiness of the people that drives the government's behavior.
Now, a wise and kind king may be moved by the pleas of his people, also a wise king would not fear his people's public expression of their discontent as only this way can he get the feed back he needs to rule effectively. Further the king being a good king will need not worry that his subjects will libel him or his rule, for he shall be beloved of his people and if he is not, it shall be a point of honor that he change his behavior. The wise king also does not make himself the centre, is the Tao says, when the sage acts well, the people say "We ourselves have done it".
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I'm not sure that any idea of a Thelemic Utopia isn't just our ego imagining its favourite scenario - that of being King of the World and getting to dictate the rules.
All these caste systems or meritocracy based on "Spiritual Experience" still smacks heavily of Divine Right to Rule.
Claiming Right to Rule because a Blue Footed HGA told you so, is no different than claiming the right based on descent from King David, or the Annunaki or Nephilim or Lizards living in the Centre of the Earth or any other manner of silly story those whose ego would reign can come up with.
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Most certainly the attainment is the means by which one attains the divine right, which is to say one becomes chartered by the secret chiefs with the authority to rule.
Since attainment is a matter of science and not superstition such as Race superiority over other races or lineage from heredity. One must earn one's attainment and blessing from the Secret chiefs, not by birth right nor by pulling a sword from an anvil, nor even the descent of a dove as one bathes publicly, or any other such nonsense. Attainment is discerned by a program of efforts and tested with a rigorous scientific method.