British Traditional Witchcraft
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One of my best friends joined a coven, that he said was Britsh/(or english, dont remember) Traditional Witchcraft. Now I hardly ever talk to him or see him, I have held 2 short conversations with him in the last 4 months. He told me over the phone that during his "Limbo" period, he cannot hang out, socialize, or hardly talk to anyone in his life. Which ofcourse puts a BIG damper on our friendship, and my wife is worried about him also. He said the coven would let him back to normal life sometime around August. And as he put it, "that is even if he is ready!". And from the little he has told me, they go camping, hang out, and do a whole bunch of things with this coven that he is not aloud to do at this time with other people in his life. I'm not even sure if he is aloud to call me, since he has only called me twice, and answers none of my calls. Does this sound phony and phishey to anyone else besides me? And is this how Britsh Traditional Witchcraft works? Or is this a sham?
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I would be suspicious for several reasons (not all of which I will disclose right now)... but my main reason is that negative cult indoctrination methods often entail separation of the recruit from his/her normal life. How does your friend maintain his finances during this limbo period? Can he still hold a job, have his own home? If that is so, then there is still at least some chance he can retain his sanity and decide for himself.
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@Takamba said
"I would be suspicious for several reasons (not all of which I will disclose right now)... but my main reason is that negative cult indoctrination methods often entail separation of the recruit from his/her normal life. How does your friend maintain his finances during this limbo period? Can he still hold a job, have his own home? If that is so, then there is still at least some chance he can retain his sanity and decide for himself."
Well, before he joined them, he was going through a divorce with his wife, his oldest daughter lived with him. He has his own lawn company, finances weren't that great, and still arent. I was suppose to help him win over the divorce by making some griss griss bags(which I have made succesfully to win court cases), he use to hang out with us all the time.
Now, since he's been in this limbo period. He got screwed in the divorce, lost everything except for his home, truck, and crappy lawn buisiness. His home is being forclosed and he's trying to find a way around that. His oldest daughter was bribed with an expensive cell phone and car. (His ex is wacked). So it looks like to me he is losing everything? Aren't these people suppose to help him? it seems to me sinse he joined he's been put further in the hole. He said to me they were 'helping' him through his ordeals. Sounds more like to me some strangers stood by and watched him get screwed, and ofcourse I wasnt allowed to be there for him through this crap.
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@Takamba said
"At this point I'd say you have two choices - tell him your suspicions/feelings and watch him make his own choices. Or just watch him make his own choices."
Thnx. Although I do not know why you wont disclose your other reason's for being suspicious. But creating this thread, (with help of your input) has made up my mind. I do not want to watch him take a row boat across the atlantic to England, and sit and and see what happends. I'm going to try to get ahold of him and tell him what I think, that they are full of shit. Thnx again.
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The reason(s) behind not wanting to disclose some of my experiences and opinions have partly to do with my interpretation of certain oaths I operate under, who is ready for my brand of the truth and who is not, some of what I would say will most certainly offend the ears of many casual observers to this thread, and a good enough portion of it might just be pure opinion. I'll hint at one thing: I have to ask, what exactly is a "traditional witchcraft" anyway? Of course, I doubt you have any more answer to that than I do (based on your original questions).
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I just thought of a third option for you to take - considering that the first two options I suggested both offer that you can actually do nothing about whatever fact of mind he decides to make up for himself, and that you don't want to have to watch him row off across "the pond" as they call it - you can kiss him good-bye and do your best to forget his existence until perhaps like a prodigal son or enlightened genius, he returns to you (or not).
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@Takamba said
"I just thought of a third option for you to take - considering that the first two options I suggested both offer that you can actually do nothing about whatever fact of mind he decides to make up for himself, and that you don't want to have to watch him row off across "the pond" as they call it - you can kiss him good-bye and do your best to forget his existence until perhaps like a prodigal son or enlightened genius, he returns to you (or not)."
Ya, I thought of that too which I have done to others in the past. But sticking with this instance, I was able to get ahold of him after I left a message about an hr ago, I explained to him my concerns and worries, that such "sacrifices" are not required for spiritual growth unless something "is" actually impeding on it. And that it may have worked for old traditions that can really pull some juice, but not for something that is decended from Gardner. Sheesh!. He is still hell bent on it, no matter what I told him. He told me that right now he is "learning" to listen to what "THEIR" god/goddess has to tell him, and define those experiences himself. Sorry but for clear communication with a divine being takes a few yrs of constant successfull practice, not something you do in LIMBO! trying to find yourself! He said he talks to them in his dreams, plus lots of other amature vision dreams that he is believfing off a whim. Wow these people are screwing with his head! He said they asked him to dedicate himself, he believes it is his path, and that is what he is going to do.
And my wife said that probly when they let him back out in the world again to socialize with all he let go of, as a "changed" person, it is most likely a choice they are going to put on him, either our world or yours. And she is probly right.
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Your wife might very well be right. But also it might not really be a choice - "If you do choose to return to your previous life among the 'unwashed,' then obviously you were never fit to pass beyond the second portal we have to offer you."
In any case, you've done all you can do unless somehow you discover in your Will the right to kidnap him back to his senses - but from where I stand, I know no way to alter his course for him.
If it is the Gardnerian craft, and it is genuine (several IFs that we won't know at this point), then no harm done I suppose. I've had my experiences working with Gardnerian's, but none of them where initiated in Britain that I am aware of. And aside from reading materials and several basic conversations on the general topic of ritual etc, I've never really discussed the procedures of the Gardnerian lineage. Who knows - maybe it is genuine. At this point, let's hope a "traditional British (or was it English?) witch" comes along and despells any mistakes for us.
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@Takamba said
"Your wife might very well be right. But also it might not really be a choice - "If you do choose to return to your previous life among the 'unwashed,' then obviously you were never fit to pass beyond the second portal we have to offer you."
In any case, you've done all you can do unless somehow you discover in your Will the right to kidnap him back to his senses - but from where I stand, I know no way to alter his course for him.
If it is the Gardnerian craft, and it is genuine (several IFs that we won't know at this point), then no harm done I suppose. I've had my experiences working with Gardnerian's, but none of them where initiated in Britain that I am aware of. And aside from reading materials and several basic conversations on the general topic of ritual etc, I've never really discussed the procedures of the Gardnerian lineage. Who knows - maybe it is genuine. At this point, let's hope a "traditional British (or was it English?) witch" comes along and despells any mistakes for us."
Actually, I think Veronica on this forum has stated in past threads once being In the actual Britsh/Englsih Tradition.
As for my friend, at this point I dont want to give up, but just in case I also dont want to stir up a hornets nests with a coven who know's how to get in peoples dreams/ and all that astral stuff. My wife on the other hand isnt worried about it, she can take care of herself, i'm not sure if I can lol, I'm still working on getting total control on the powers of my own being. But I do plan on emailing him some things on Garnder, being the failed Golden Dawn Initiate that he was, just about as wacked as Anton Levi who was a failed probationer under Crowley in the AA. -
It seems as if you have hammered out a good deal, and have acted as well.
I was lead by my Guide to look into BTW, a long time ago...in a galxy far far away (JK). So I did, and I found much good in its core, but also found the energies around that core not as pure, which I think is always going to be true in a group, but something I personally need to keep on top of as I lend my energies very strongly.I will tell you all that I have never been an Initiate in any Magickal Order, or Coven, or Grove or Circle with other human beings, in this lifetime. Never, probably never will either for the simple reason that I made a personal pledge/oath and dedicated myself to my Vision, and since secret orders insist you make an oath- with out full disclosure- I cannot make a pledge to a group that may possibly be doing something, or have done something that goes against my original oath. If I cannot be sure of the words and actions of all its members I am not willing to give my energy to it. I dont even say the Pledge to the flag:) . I have issues of trust, and where I lay that trust.
BTW in most circles means a branch of an oath bound initiatory mystery tradition, that should be able to vet and claim lineage to the original New Forest coven. It is a path of a Priesthood, and has its own egregore or simply put the collective spirit of the group brings into manifestion a specific thought form (as your friend spoke of the God/Dess of the coven) This New Forest coven was perportedly in existance for some ages, and brought to the limelime light by Gerald Gardner, and branched out by his initiates namely Alexander Sanders.
From the information I have been given in "real" BTW there is a lot of emphasis placed on Veting, liken to a genealogical tree. FWIW Crowley helped Gardner write many of the newer rituals, and from my understanding was at one time initated into a coven. As for Gerald failing the Golden Dawn, I have been led to believe that it was not the case of him being inadequate, but in his desire to serve in another fashion. If He had stayed in the GD, would we have the massive influx of females, IDK. If he hadnt stood in the limelight would the Laws on the books have ever been repealed- IDK. I do think that Gardner saught to bring the mysteries to the masses, and lift the veils for more to expierence. I dont think he could have done that otherwise, and I do believe it was something that needed to be done.
BTW is one branch of what many call Tradtional Witchcraft. The Itialians, and Germans have a branch as well as Norse. These forms of Witchcraft IME, are not what is practiced by what we would call aboriginals, IE my local Seneca Nation has witchcraft, but it is not a path to Priesthood- those are the Shaman. When one starts out on the path to Priesthood, there are challenges, and obsticles. Illusions fall away, things fade, and the practioner is faced with change or die. It is not uncommon for those becoming priests to have to walk away from everything, to have vows or alliegence, silence, chastity, ect. witchcraft is concerned with low magick, asserting your will over others/ things. IE love spells, weather spells, hunting spells, harming enemies. Little or nothing to do with surrender, service, compassion. Traditional W works with marking the passage of time, and the forces there in. In the higher grades the Lower and Greater Mysteries are taught. The traditional timw frame from dedication to initation is a year and day, and at that point the petitioner may walk away. Joining a coven is liken to joining a hard core family, hard core meaning you do eveything togther, your goals are there goals and vice versa, your belongings become thier belongings, your IRL family becomes thier family. Not to be taken lightly at all.
I read alot of judmental statements in your posting, which I think are warrented by your frustration and concern. I hear that you think your friend needed assistance and magickal support in his life change. I am reminded of how I used to think I knew what was best for so and so, and how so and so could have had it easier if only they did what I thought.....Trust in the fact that your friend is being watched over by loving guiding forces, pray to thoses forces to be with your friend, and guide him through/ to what he needs. I am reminded that we always have three choices, to move towards, to move away, to to stay put. Your friend loves you, yet you possibly feel as if he is moving away. If you move away as well, you will percieve a greater distance, if you move closer- he may move away more (perception), but if you stay where you are.....well I think you already talked about that.
BTW is (or was last I knew) an elite, exclusive current. There are hundreds if not thousands of covens and circles of like minded people who are fed up with dogma and the religious biasis percvieved, but they are not BTW. I am glad that the population has this pagan revival, and I welcome the shift in conciousness.
I hope this information is settling to you, and sits well.
I dont think your friend is in physical harm, and if he is a friend of yours he has good support if he needs:)
Be well~ -
"I read alot of judmental statements in your posting, which I think are warrented by your frustration and concern. I hear that you think your friend needed assistance and magical support in his life change."
Ya, those are there, but my perception of friendship is different then his obviously, and I do not expect him to understand. He is most likely the time to be close to blood first, as I am more towards friendship over blood most of the time(my family is nuts). As he said over the phone, they told he can over interact with blood, and that he was sorry I wasn't family, but he had to drop me anyway. Screw that, and now with this little ordeal I do see how both mine and his views differ, in more then one way. But honestly, I think he doesn't have a clue of what he doing. It was me and my wife who introduced him into the occult, and ever since from the start hes always leaned toward what caught his interest, not what someone advises. Oh well. I really do not think we were "that" good of friends, especially I will not be a ball in a crib for him to pick up and drop off the whim of what these people tell him.
Yes, Crowley did inspire him to spread this new religion of wicca, but also crowley's time was about up, and it is not like he had alot of choices of people to work through. Gardner on the the other hand, has been known to make some statements that aren't exactly true, and his ritual design was taken from low level initiate material in the O.T.O. I would say that he is not the best to follow, but mabye at best a basic start. But he was only introduced to Crowley through the O.T.O, not Thelema.
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Veronica, you may be right but could well be wrong. This because there are two different terms being confused:
British Traditional Wicca is a mainly American term referring to Gardnerian Wicca and what we now know to be its offshoot, Alexandrian Wicca. It is indeed a strict lineage and anyone claiming to be a member should be able to trace their lineage back to Gardner (but not his imaginary New Forest Coven, which was actually a working group that claimed a spiritual lineage to a number of magical traditions, including "The Wica" (with one "c"). Letters exist demonstrating that Gardner and Ross Nichols, both members of the Ancient Druid Order at the time, begain discussing creating a new Earth-based religion immediately after World War II It has also been demonstrated that in spite of his original "granny initiated me" story, he was actually initiated by one of Gardner's HPS when Par Crowther refused him due to his bisexuality. In the Americas the phrase is used to distinguish this tradition from Eclectic Wiccas, such as Norse Wicca, italian Wicca etc etc.
British Traditional Witchcraft is a British phrase used to describe the "system" of British mystic Robert Cochrane and his few followers and many plagiarists. Although the living followers of this tradition may be totally honest as far as they know, many of the founders of different Cochrane-derived witchcraft were the biggest liars around, and their tradition, which they claim to be older that Gardnerian, is so suspiciously similar it is clear that they have borrowed practically everything from Gardner, Graves and Murray. They also change their story every time they are challenged, and while some are OK many have been involved in sexual exploitation. I would avoid anything using "the red thread" just as a precaustion.
I know some very good Trad Craft witches but have encountered some bloody awful ones. All of them have "grimoires" dating back centuries written in modern English. A few have found links with the Cunning Men and Women of the past, but their craft died out in the 1800s and as well as not taking apprentices, they actually acted as witch hunters and in many ways were like Joseph Smith and his family (see other thread).
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I completely understand the confusion of the two terms. I have read and read countless threads and articles about what is what and which is which. I actually was hoping not to have to get into it again.
From the information that I have been given, which was from sources in Britian, The term Wicca was origianaly used to denote the oathbound mystery tradtion of the Priesthood, but the phrase itself was not in popular use, until BTW came out of the closet. The term indicated the Wise, and was hope to dispell fear, as the witchcraft was associated with lots of fear.
The True Wicca, which I will define as those practioners of oath bound mystery priesthoods, are not the same sort of Wiccans that sprouted up in America after Drawing Down the Moon, Cunningham, Buckland, Farrar's (who are Trad taught, but most followers are not) Raven wolf, V. Crowley (also trad taught).
I never gave Robert the time of day in my studies, I could smell his BS from his name alone. I have never heard of any legimate practioners of the Craft claim ties to him. I have only ever heard people claiming to be B.T. Witchcraft- and that meant they were the craft of the wise. Now a days it seems as if Wiccan are all over the place, but when you talk to them you can see that what they are speaking of is not of a Priesthood.
Llewellyn has done a mighty fine job of corrupting and confusing the issue, which is why I spent such a long time studying witchcraft. I used to think I was Wiccan, as I held the same vision and mythos, but as I had never been "properly" intiated I would not dishonor the word Wicca. I was gifted with a silver brooch, made by Gardner along time ago.....and I will not wear it out of respect for what it means. I didnt earn it.
I have always asked for proof of lineage or affiliation. Who taught you? you initiated you? If they claim Gardner or Sanders lines then they are BTWitchcraft- Wiccan in the original sence. If they say anything else......well America is a melting pot isnt it.....
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I just reread what I wrote and I hope I didnt come across as bitchy.
I am sorry if I didnt convey a sweeter tone.
I guess I am just a bit tired of the whole wicca/witchcraft scene....The Goddess appears to us in forms we can see, who am I to say what is what to anyones eyes.
I know that for me for a long time She looked like a witch..... -
The term "Wicca" - pronounced like Wicker - is modern and any tradition using it in 1950s - based at the earliest. What gardner didn't realise was that Wicca does not mean witchcraft in Anglo-Saxon, it means "male witch" - as opposed to Wicce (female witch). It was pronounced exactly like the modern spelling "witch" with a little half-vowel at the end. The Anglo-Saxon term for witchcraft was spelled wiccecraeft and pronounced almost exactly as nowadays.
Most BTW lines do not claim Cochrane as a lineage because they invariably invent a family tradition going back hundreds of years - which they do not and can not prove. However, there is one aspect of BTW that is admirable if totally misused. They are a lot hotter on folklore research - but their own *ancient tradition" invariably includes the latest state of folklore research at the time their coven first emerges, but nothing that emerges later. They also have a weird inability to tel the difference between folkore and history, quoting collections of folk superstitions about witches as historical records of what witches actually did, not that there really were any witches. They also have this strange blind spot over the cunning men and cunning women, who did perform ritual magic (they learned it from widely available books) but who included so many thieves, receivers, rapists and murderers that I wouldn't want them in my lineage.
The ongest running current scam is based upon The Pickingill Papers, a series of articles claiming that Garndner et al got their Craft from a cunning man called George Pickingill. This myth has been exploded throughly, and the paperback edition includes many revisions from the original articles, but many idiots still believe it.
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@sethur said
"The term "Wicca" - pronounced like Wicker - is modern and any tradition using it in 1950s - based at the earliest. What gardner didn't realise was that Wicca does not mean witchcraft in Anglo-Saxon, it means "male witch" - as opposed to Wicce (female witch). It was pronounced exactly like the modern spelling "witch" with a little half-vowel at the end. The Anglo-Saxon term for witchcraft was spelled wiccecraeft and pronounced almost exactly as nowadays.
Most BTW lines do not claim Cochrane as a lineage because they invariably invent a family tradition going back hundreds of years - which they do not and can not prove. However, there is one aspect of BTW that is admirable if totally misused. They are a lot hotter on folklore research - but their own *ancient tradition" invariably includes the latest state of folklore research at the time their coven first emerges, but nothing that emerges later. They also have a weird inability to tel the difference between folkore and history, quoting collections of folk superstitions about witches as historical records of what witches actually did, not that there really were any witches. They also have this strange blind spot over the cunning men and cunning women, who did perform ritual magic (they learned it from widely available books) but who included so many thieves, receivers, rapists and murderers that I wouldn't want them in my lineage.
The ongest running current scam is based upon The Pickingill Papers, a series of articles claiming that Garndner et al got their Craft from a cunning man called George Pickingill. This myth has been exploded throughly, and the paperback edition includes many revisions from the original articles, but many idiots still believe it."
the Root of 'wicca-wicca' etymologicaly speaking has its root in the scandinavian word 'Vikti', meaning 'cunning-man', 'magician', and what not. Quite a few wicca terms, and terms in general comes from germanic decent. LIke "Atheme", and the Scandinavian word for breath is "Athem".
Veronica.
" by Veronica » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:24 pm
I just reread what I wrote and I hope I didnt come across as bitchy.
I am sorry if I didnt convey a sweeter tone.
I guess I am just a bit tired of the whole wicca/witchcraft scene....The Goddess appears to us in forms we can see, who am I to say what is what to anyones eyes.
I know that for me for a long time She looked like a witch....."No offense taken. How would I have a full perspective without a neutral party involved
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And a bit of my aggrivation also comes from the "wicca scene". It is just something I have grown very tired of, put down most of my arguments, cause I care not to argue about it anymore, like the same feeling arguing about "christianity" and 'whose religion was the oldest' crap. I am beyond bored of those discussions. I could care less if people worshiped a floating monkey in the sky, just leave me out of it. -
Hmmm. I had a high school friend who one day decided he was a vampire. There was some king vampire on the internet who gave him instructions as to when and how one drinks one's blood. He only drank his own blood, though, so it didn't bother me overmuch.
Needless to say, he got over it eventually. Sometimes you just have to sit back and let people be stupid. "Benign neglect."
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@Alias55A said
"
the Root of 'wicca-wicca' etymologicaly speaking has its root in the scandinavian word 'Vikti', meaning 'cunning-man', 'magician', and what not. Quite a few wicca terms, and terms in general comes from germanic decent. /quote]Sorry, but this is not quite right. The Scandinavian influence on English is later than terms such as wicce and wicca. Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian do have a common Germanic root, but by the time these words entered the old English tongue certain changes had already occurred. Apart from the "ch" sound for a final "c" or double "cc" there was also the rather odd habit of pronouncing the germanic "g" as "y". This is found in old spellings such as Geman for Yeoman, and both are present in the old spelling for the county town of Suffolk (the south folk) - Gippeswic, which is now spelled Ipswich and was once "yippeswich".
Above all though, the root meaning of the "Vik/Wic" - this means "twist", not wise, and refers to those who can twist the web of weird/wyrd. The idea that witchcraft meant "craft of the wise" first appeared in a late 1940s novel called "The Silver Bowl" that was pure historical fantasy with little research behind it, but which was published at just the right time - just as The White Goddess was published and just as Gerald Gardner and Ross Nichols were discussing the new earth-based religion. This means that all "traditions" appearing after that date that stae that witchcraft means "craft of the wise" do indeed come from after that date - or, more importantly, did not call themselves "witches" until Gardner made the term popular rather than derogatory.
I once found a copy of The Silver Bowl and the "witches" in it are not really sympathetic characters. It was one of a slew of proto-pagan fiction that caught the zeitgeist of the post-WWII world in much the same way that John Hargrave's novels did the same after WWI - but that's another story - even if people influenced by him did end up in the New Forest, naked, worshipping a Horned God and a Moon Goddess (using Crowley's Hymn To Pan) after calling in the four quarters - in 1923-1928.
So why isn't that pre-WWII movement mentioned in Wiccan history? Perhaps because the movement(s) originated in the Scouts.................