A.'.A.'. Lineage Question
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@Solitarius said
"I don't agree that admitting a mistake somehow abdicates responsibility, how do you work that out?"
You seemed to be saying that one who made a mistake shouldn't be held accountable for it.
"As for past lives and Karma; well, I see no reason to believe in past lives per se,"
Understood, and believe as you will. But, the experience of many people aside, there is very little in this work (past the basics) that, on close examination, makes sense ikn the context only of a single life. The progress of the soul isn't a race from bottom to top of the Tree in a single life but, rather, incremental gain and frequent recapitulation (to rapidly retrace, in each new life, the ground more arduously covered in earlier ones).
"I personally only believe in this one life"
And, on the theory that it's better to be an agnostic than a hypocrite, I honor your decision, at this very early stage of your work, not to believe in something you can't presently experience.
"and am not about to believe in reincarnation based on someone else's assertion"
I am very content with Patanjali's hierarchy of evidence. The best evidence is one's own experience. But, absent that, the next best evidence is the testimony of someone who is in a place to know. (This is essentially what the courts have adopted also.) - Below these kinds of evidence are many lesser ones, such as the testimony of someone who doesn't have a clue (or a way to find a clue).
"for me the A.'.A.'. offers the one chance of experiencing, while living, the consciousness of the continuity of existence; by this I don't mean some earthly order calling itself the A.'.A.'., but the supernal order that such organisations are supposed to represent"
You speak of the S.'.S.'., in other words.
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Of course if you make a mistake you will be held accountable for it, what I am saying is that it seems daft to exclude someone from entry into the order because they happened to encounter, and very nearly be duped by someone who upon close examination tuned out to be not worth the effort.
As I'm sure you noticed, I am only just getting past the purely intellectual stage in my own growth, and it would be presumptuous of me to make assertions based on wishful thinking, on the other hand, the fact that I'm here discussing this at all shows that although intellectually I find the idea of transmigration of souls hard to swallow, I am willing to perform the experiment myself and thus come to an informed conclusion.
the thing with accepting that someone else is in a place to know implies the surety that that person is both Honest and Sane, As I have recently escaped such a lunatic I tend to err on the side of caution. at the present I have to take any such assertion on faith, not that such an assertion is necessarily true in the objective sense, but that the person postulating such an idea has valid reasons for doing so, e.g. person X believes himself to be Napoleon, that's fine; he is only insane if he believes that person Y should also believe that he is Napoleon. this is the basis of all religion, the assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with a given assertion should be put to the sword.
You are right, I did mean the S.'.S.'., my bad, I forgot that there is a subtle distinction, A.'.A.'. members are ipso facto Thelemites, whereas an S.'.S.'. member may never have even heard of Thelema, Am I right? -
@Jim Eshelman said
" (There's always next lifetime, or other activities or approaches in the current one.)"
Hi Jim, I am curious what you mean by "other activities or approaches" - does this mean joining a non-AA magical order, or an Eastern yoga system etc.?
Also, you speak about "authentic" contacts. Is this something you can discern by gut-feeling about the aspirant, or does your branch maintain a registry of whom you recognize as authentic?
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@Escarabaj said
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@Jim Eshelman said
" (There's always next lifetime, or other activities or approaches in the current one.)"Hi Jim, I am curious what you mean by "other activities or approaches" - does this mean joining a non-AA magical order, or an Eastern yoga system etc.?"
Or whatever, including none of the above. There are countless things one can do with a life.
"Also, you speak about "authentic" contacts. Is this something you can discern by gut-feeling about the aspirant, or does your branch maintain a registry of whom you recognize as authentic?"
We never make any comment on the authenticity of anyone not in our lineage unless it appears that someone is at serious risk, if that's what you're asking. Mostly, it's none of our business. Also, the lessons of discernment and discrimination are among the most important lessons one can learn (and might even be worth the effort of an entire incarnation).
But (to go in another direction), yes, there is documentary evidence, within our lineage, of each person who has ever been authentically admitted by someone - both a master roster, and documentary evidence in the member's possession.
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@danica said
"Solitarius,
the work itself is what counts the most."I second that opinion.
BTW, Jim, does an affiliation with a Golden Dawn, Wiccan or some other magickal group disqualify one as well from A.'.A.'. admittance, or is it primarily other A.'.A.'. lineages. Also, what constitutes admittance as a Probationer into the A.'.A.'.? Is it the taking of the oath?
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@nderabloodredsky said
"BTW, Jim, does an affiliation with a Golden Dawn, Wiccan or some other magical group disqualify one as well from A.'.A.'. admittance"
No, not at all.
"Also, what constitutes admittance as a Probationer into the A.'.A.'.? Is it the taking of the oath?"
There is a specific process by which a Neophyte admits a Probationer. A specific thing happens during that process, which (among other things) includes the transmission of an inner plane connection to the stream of the Order, a "recording" of the step.
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@Solitarius said
"What happens if the Neophyte turns out to not be a Neophyte, but an alleged 8=3. and rather than following procedure, simply posts probationer documents for the student to sign more or less straight away?"
Then they were never admitted to A.'.A.'.. They may have gained any number of other things, but not that particular thing.
"If the Probationer then withdraws association with that particular contact, judging him to be unsound, (as A.C. did with the G.'.D.'.) but stays true to his oath to the S.'.S.'., what then?"
Since they were never admitted to A.'.A.'. (and presuming they're willing to admit that fact), then the aspirant is still free to seek a connection to the Order.
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Thanks, I had wondered about that, in fact it had bugged me for ages as I didn't want any skeletons in the closet that would return to haunt me at a later date.
What other things? I imagine the Karma accrued from such an association would need to be worked off in the very least.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I am very content with Patanjali's hierarchy of evidence."
I'm intrigued. In what work of Patanjali's is this hierarchy of evidence?
Dan
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@ar said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I am very content with Patanjali's hierarchy of evidence."I'm intrigued. In what work of Patanjali's is this hierarchy of evidence?"
The Yoga Sutras. It's in I:7 (and, looking it up here, I see I slightly displaced the sequence). Grabbing Vivekananda's translation as closest at hand:
"Direct perception (pratyaksha), inference (anumana), and competent evidence {aptavakya) constitute right knowledge, or proof."
The first two are relatively obvious, but aptavakya may need more explanation. AFAIK it functionally means, "testimony from one qualified to testify," but it is more literally rendered something like, "report of adepts." (Apta essentially means "adept.") Vivekananda's discussion of this in his commentary (a long paragraph) is definitely worth a read.
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the only problem with competent evidence is that you have to be certain that the witness is indeed competent, which for me is something you just have to take on trust, I could be cynical and simply brand all prophets and visionary's as liars, but then what would that achieve? squat.
At some point it becomes necessary to make a leap of faith, (which requires one hell of a run up in my experience) and once you get your own results its as if the gap wasn't so big after all, but our perception is somehow warped by reason. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"Vivekananda's discussion of this in his commentary (a long paragraph) is definitely worth a read."
Thank's, Jim. I definitely will.
Dan