difficulty breathing in asana?
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@Alrah said
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The only point of all of this is (as far as a magician is concerned) to attain to Tiphareth. That can be done without stupid nostril breathing. Ask any A.:A.: magician. I seriously doubt anyone worth their salt will disagree with me on this.ps - there are a number of practises within all systems that are held in high regard by the novice but are (in reality) a dumbing down of the overall system.
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Alrah, I have a great deal of respect for most of what you post, but this garbage is downright irresponsible. First of all, you do not know what the individual who started this thread even needs to get to that point. They probably haven't even made it to Malkuth, and alternate nostril breathing may be absolutely necessary in their attainment.
For someone who claims to already be there (don't mistake my remark for saying that you are not, I simply cannot verify anything that you claim.) you should know better. The AA system exists because it works, and to the aspirant EVERY path should be attempted until the most suitable is found. It doesn't matter that alternate nostril breathing didn't do anything for you, as for myself, it did wonders.
I do remember swallowing long lengths of cotton gauze dipped in milk and slowly pulling them back out of my mouth... did I need to do that? Probably yes, I lived on a fast food diet until I was twenty and had various digestive issues. Was it necessary to attain? No. BUT it helped me to overcome certain inhibitions I had about my body and also made it easier to sit in asana without gas pains. The practice of kapalbhati is not necessary to attain but it expands the lungs which increases the amount of prana the body can take in. All acts of purification are necessary up until Tipereth, that is unless we were born as you, Alrah: perfect from the get go.
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One cannot win the race if they haven't practiced for it. Preparing your body and mind for the supreme attainment is, in itself, an attainment. By the virtue of practice:the impulse driven, directionless, and feeble machine has now been given control, orientation, and will to pursue any desired end.
The keen skill of observation, focus, and discipline that is acquired from THE PRACTICE OF alternate nostril breathing is an excellent prerequisite to dharana. Not to mention the purification of the Nadis, and the balancing effects that it has on the minds and emotions are necessary to make progress. I guess they are only unnecessary if you are not affected by your emotional body.
How ever can one ever become a Bhakti if they can't control their emotional state at will?I believe that the AA is a system of Raja Yoga, and that system has a particular method.
By the way in the practice of Tummo (using practices of Raja Yoga to produce a phenomena called psychic heat) alternate nostril breathing is an absolute prerequisite to any of the higher meditations. Interestingly enough, some of the meditations are very similar to AA exercises...
Your "debunking" of a system cites no source other than your own experiences. I will go with the instructions that have been refined couple thousand years over some person on a board. You are assuming that you have attained something in your own way and that other paths are therefore unnecessary/illegitimate because you said so. Please cite a source other than yourself and then we can have an actually have a conversation on your idea. Do it for the sake of the posters questions and giving legitimate reasons for doing/not doing an exercise.
ps.In a very convenient kabbalistic model the qliphotic Kether ends in Malkuth, so (according to such a model), not all necessarily reside in Malkuth.
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@Laertes said
"93,
I am a beginner at meditation following Crowley's instructions in Book 4, eight lectures on yoga, and a couple other sources that escape my mind at the moment. I've been trying to do at least 30 minutes a day, focusing on asana, pranayama and dharana. Asana is going well (using the dragon posture), it is quite painful but Crowley does not sugar cote the fact that this is completely expected. My dharana has improved greatly using a red triangle as my focus, but surprisingly it is easier for me to hold my focus on moving objects (a rotating red triangle or a flipping white cross for example) than a fixed one. Since Crowley says a still object should be focused on before working your way up to moving objects, should I just skip ahead to moving objects or try to focus on a still object first?
Also pranayama is EXTREMELY difficult for me, whether breathing through the right, left nostril, or both, I can barely breath in for 5 seconds and out for 10 for more than a few minutes before I feel like I am suffocating. Any advice here, I am in good cardio-vascular shape but I suppose that doesn't necceasrily mean pranayama would come easy to me. How long does it take to work up to say 10 seconds in, 20 seconds out, I feel like Im making no progress in this department. I am wondering if the posuture is making breathing difficult, with my back and head so stiff and straight breeathing deeply is impossible but if I am in a more comfortable position I can breath like this quite easily, it is almost as if the dragon posutre hinders my ability to breath in deeply, any help is appreaciated.
93 93/93"I've had similar problems with pranayama before and had to slowly work up the slower breathing rhythms. I'd suggest BKS Iyengar's Light on Yoga and Light on Pranayama. They're encyclopedic in their scope of the amount of information covered on the topics of Asana and Pranayama practices and go over somewhat the higher stages. Iyenger also builds his method from Hathayoga Pradipika, Shiva Samhita, and the Yoga Sutras... All books which Crowley suggests in the student reading list. They can be bought used on Amazon and are fairly inexpensive.
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whoa, i didn't mean to start such a fierce debate, i plan on committing myself to some hatha yoga before assuming my asana even watching some videos of instructors seems to set my mind in the right place.
Another question though about the switching nostril thing. all of you have made good points regarding this practice, my only question is, if I do decide to do the nostril exercises, won't I eventually have to switch to regular breathing (in nose, out mouth) because if I am constantly moving my hand to close my nostrils how will lose awareness of my physical body? Of course I understand that as a beginner this isn't a major concern right away but eventually does one abandon the nostril exercise?
again thanks for the replies since i live in bumble fuck nowhere right now it's great to have access to real people and not just books. hopefully i will get into a phd program in a big city in april/march, where I can find official instruction since State College PA isn't really cutting it now.
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When you have a firm grip on Asana move on to observation of the breath. Alternate nostril breathing is a more advanced practice that you don't need to worry yourself with at this time, just get steady and still. When your posture is easy refer to Liber E and Liber RV for more advanced practices.
If you can find someone to instruct you personally on asana and pranayama you will do yourself a great favor.
I am not a traditionalist, but I think it is silly to have someone attempt a triathlon without developing a little endurance and strength. Despite the opinions of others the prescribe method is highly beneficial, not to mislead you into thinking that they will bring you to the end but rather a new plateau of awareness. Do not drop any practice without careful consideration and conversely do not start any practice without the same.
Take your time do not rush to master multiple exercises at once. Be systematic in your approach (take the long road) and you will have excellent results and become a more balanced individual.
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An interesting read, however, it does not necessarily support your claim since the method of breathing used for the study employed alternate nostril breathing. Without comparative results there is no way to discern if the following claim:
"there is no evidence to suggest that it is any more effective than other effective types of slow/deep breathing based meditation."
is true or not.
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@Laertes said
"whoa, i didn't mean to start such a fierce debate, i plan on committing myself to some hatha yoga before assuming my asana even watching some videos of instructors seems to set my mind in the right place.
Another question though about the switching nostril thing. all of you have made good points regarding this practice, my only question is, if I do decide to do the nostril exercises, won't I eventually have to switch to regular breathing (in nose, out mouth) because if I am constantly moving my hand to close my nostrils how will lose awareness of my physical body? Of course I understand that as a beginner this isn't a major concern right away but eventually does one abandon the nostril exercise?
again thanks for the replies since i live in bumble {****} nowhere right now it's great to have access to real people and not just books. hopefully i will get into a phd program in a big city in april/march, where I can find official instruction since State College PA isn't really cutting it now."
I think it's a great idea to start hatha yoga, it's a meditation in itself lol. It's helped me remain in seated postures for longer periods than I could without having a nice stretch before hand, too. If you want to try using both nostrils, go for it, although you should exhale from your nose and not your mouth in most cases. I think I said it earlier, but take it slow when increasing the periods of inhalation, exhalation, retention, etc. You don't want to strain or injure yourself.
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I agree Alrah this discussion is becoming very interesting, it has actually been opening some terrific dialogues with some fellow practitioners. Maybe we will shed some light on a great mystery, yes?
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@Alrah said
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@TheSilent1 said
"I agree Alrah this discussion is becoming very interesting, it has actually been opening some terrific dialogues with some fellow practitioners. Maybe we will shed some light on a great mystery, yes?"It is possible and certainly worth investigating.
Perhaps we should look closer at the data? If you could show a study that indicated alternate nostril breathing carried with it any sort of benefit not found in the zazen method then it would go a long way towards validating the model of the Ida and Pingala as they are affected by the breath.
But if not - then it would not invalidate the idea of the Ida and Pingala either. "By blocking one of the nostrils completely or partially, or both partially like in digital pranayama, you will inhibit the flow of air much more than you would than by just placing the tongue on the soft palate. By slowing the breath like this you're getting a benefit by itself. Not sure if it actually causes psychological changes like some claim e.g. nadis influencing right/left hemispheres, or balancing lunar/solar principles, etc. Interesting stuff, I'll watch this thread haha.
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having done hatha yoga for a little while now i figured id re-comment on this post. Hatha yoga is definitely an excellent preliminary for many spiritual endeavors especially raja yoga in my case, and it is an excellent form of mysticism in itself once some skill has been developed. Doing a series of asanas with your eyes closed makes it truly deep (i especially love the head stand, when you hit the perfect balance and can hold it). If you learn to cycle your breath well as you switch asanas this helps expand your lungs. It seems to be my route for practicing yoga. combining liber resh with some "sun salutation" asanas is a really good practice as well. Strongly recommend it if your having asana or pranayama trouble (provided you find quality instruction which is quite available, at least in my area.)
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I LOVE Bhakti yoga