Discussing Thelema without calling it Thelema.
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Thats nice:)
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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I hope you take this in the spirit it is meant, as a genuine response to your desire to make the text stronger. I'm not a speech writer, just someone who prefers strong, clear statements. If I vapidly said I liked what you wrote I would be doing you no favors.
"I completely agree with your anger in this scenario. I used to HATE people trying to push their beliefs on me. But after I started studying not only what I believe, but what they do too, I've come to a certain peak of intellectual freedom by knowing that when they confront me, I can effectively disprove their argument if need be, and potentially every aspect of their religion. But what must be understood here is that while Christianity in all its forms, etc. are blatantly false to people like you and I, some people still need to grow to understand that out-of-date viewpoint before they can evolve to understand a truer viewpoint "
One of the big problems in trying to share your ‘enlightenment’ by asserting how much you have grown is the fact that this is exactly what every other cultist out there tries to do. Smart people understand this and are respectfully unimpressed by such statements.
Personally, I think you can say a lot less and imply a lot more. You don’t need to waste time explaining why you think what you think. Rather, you can afford to wait for the follow up question or challenge. This first paragraph can easily be summed up in one or two sentences. In the simplest most direct way possible, say what you believe.
"For example, think of inmates in prison. A mass murderer might be sentenced to life in prison, and even if he's killed 50 people, if through religion or whatever you wish to call it, he genuinely learns from his crimes - in whatever way he is meant to do - it can be said that real growth occurred within him before he died. That's really all there is to do in life, I think - to learn to understand our deepest natures as human beings, and also to understand ourselves individually as something within a human being that truly makes us all Divine beings, indeed Gods. "
In this paragraph you are just asking for trouble. I know because I’ve done similar things myself. It’s never a good idea to refer to mass-murderers to make a point, there is just too much for people to pick at and comment on out of context. You will find yourself defending things you never intended to defend or be forced to admit you made a mistake in your original analogy, which will be seen as intellectually shallow. Do you really need to present a hypothetical situation in order to make this point? It seems fairly self-evident. I doubt anyone would object to the essential idea, which is basically that any progress is commendable.
"An interesting thing to note though is that you'll find that the wiser you get - i.e. the more wisdom you gain, which comes after learning information to acquire knowledge, since wisdom is so much more - the more you'll desire, rather than arguing or discussing, or even breaking down the opponent, to keep silent about the things you know. You'll find that in cases of conflict, both parties generally tend to make fools out of themselves, because no matter how much they KNOW, religion/spirituality/whatever you want to call it, must be experienced. And with experience comes the Power of Silence. It not only allows you to grow by experiencing the world, rather than boasting about your subjective understanding of it, but it also allows others to grow at their own pace, in their own way, toward their own destination. "
Frankly, I would get rid of the third person, hypothetical voice altogether. Make it personal: **I have found; my experience; I have no desire to argue or discuss; my interest… ** And don’t be afraid to call it like you see it, there are several assertions in this last paragraph that are simple facts: experience is more important that argument; it’s simple, live, experience; people will or will not work things out for themselves—not my problem! (italics indicates my bias)
Basically, allow people to agree with you because you say true things, and don’t try to make your point of view sound reasonable, it will be perceived as weakness, as little more than an argument. The direct voice is the strongest, and besides, learning to use this voice is good practice.
Love and Will
Robert <------High School Varsity Debate Team
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@Alrah said
"There used to be two schools of thought on enlightenment: the first school said that one is unenlightened and then must become enlightened. The other school said that one is already enlightened but doesn't realise it.
The second perspective could be usefully taken with people who don't know about Thelema, without presuming to tell them what Thelema is - no more than you would start discussing what enlightenment is. Neither needs too much definition or it just leads to dogmatism."
It is something you feel and not something you really understand:)
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Absolutely:)
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The curve of my lips, cuts like a scythe, when I smile
Oh noes... there goes another one -
@Blythe A. Blanche said
"This actually helps a great deal. Many thanks. =)"
I'm glad it helped you. I know I didn't really give you any new things to discuss in terms of content, but my point is that style is easily fifty percent of the message—it should be a reflection of how you feel about your ideas. Clearly you are passionate about them, so present them with the respect they deserve.
Love and Will
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nothing wrong with good editing:)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Great thread! To me, its admirable to see people's take on the core principles of Thelema, in their own context and terminology. Once one has enough experience with the various techniques, the symbols and what they veil, I believe its only natural to convey our own direct experience in our own language; its lovely when someone has the bravery to speak plainly about their convictions, without shrouding their understanding in unnecessary symbolism.
And Mr. Allen, you gave some great advice! I really got a lot out of reading your posts.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Great thread indeed.
I found the advice given very informative. When I was first starting to think and feel I was finally scratching the surface,I became excited about it all and wanted to tell the world.
I would go to work and talk about meditation, Magick and Occult/Esoteric books I was reading, sometimes I found that people would gossip or make remarks due to their view, which is fine.
With my friends and girlfriend I don't really talk about it, my girlfriend see's my books and inquires here and there, stating she wants to start some exercises and study soon. I have met only a couple of serious people in the physical that could discuss Thelema or any Magick, online is where I found many.
It seems many have a negative view when they hear Magick or Occult, I usually break things down into the realm of practical application on a consistent basis as the prerequisite for knowledge, wisdom and understanding. That maybe we need make ourselves fit instruments to receive that which is presently unknown, and ask one to look at ones view of this Life when they were seven years old, and to look at their view now, stating that concepts, ideals and experience seem to shape that view, also when an elder said not to touch the stove or something hot, we had to touch it to truly know what being burnt was etc.
It seems to me when it comes to Magick, it's best only to talk about it to those who may have experience or want to.
Peace
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"It seems many have a negative view when they hear Magick or Occult, I usually break things down into the realm of practical application on a consistent basis as the prerequisite for knowledge, wisdom and understanding. That maybe we need make ourselves fit instruments to receive that which is presently unknown, and ask one to look at ones view of this Life when they were seven years old, and to look at their view now, stating that concepts, ideals and experience seem to shape that view, also when an elder said not to touch the stove or something hot, we had to touch it to truly know what being burnt was etc.
It seems to me when it comes to Magick, it's best only to talk about it to those who may have experience or want to.
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Absolutely:) I tend to use science/philosophy as a way to relate people to Thelema.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.