The HGA and Christian god
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This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately… Please forgive the naivety; I’m still relatively new to studying Thelema.
I have noticed a lot of similarities in the way Thelemites address the HGA and the way Christians address god. Some examples are like: the HGA will let certain events happen to you in your life to teach you lessons or prepare you for enlightenment. There’s the idea out there that your HGA will punish you for certain things. I have read from some posts on here, people saying to trust in the direction their HGA is guiding them. There also seems to be some kind of notion that the HGA has a plan for each individual’s life. The emphasis on the discovery and alignment with True Will is also of high importance, although, I haven't been able to understand/reconcile whether the True Will this refers to belongs to the individual (self) or the HGA (in Christianity: Thy [god's] will be done.) I spent my whole childhood listening to people say that god was telling them to do one thing or another. I've always believed this was just that person's way hiding behind divine justification to do whatever they wanted, and that they weren't able to back up these feelings with reasoning or didn't want to admit to wanting it. Maybe the concept of the HGA can be abused in this fashion??
I realize that the only general consensus regarding the HGA is that it’s so individualized, that it’s basically impossible to classify. I also understand that I may be just seeing these similarities through the lense of my past beliefs. The relationship between the ego and the HGA is also a little fuzzy to me (as you can see above). In Christianity, it’s pretty straightforward: the self is the soul, which is separate from and created by god. In Thelema, it seems as though the HGA/the genius could be the true self, and the ego is just a lower projection/result of the HGA. Am I on the right track or even close here?
-ANEA
“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.”P.S. Again, I’m sorry if any of these thoughts seem terribly ignorant. I’m trying my best to wrap my head around the full picture of the world view of Thelema. From what I’ve read, I can really closely relate, but I don’t have a solid foundation of knowledge yet. I have some particular questions/thoughts about making the initial connections, but I feel it deserves its own thread, and I’ll make one for it at a later time.
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@ANEA said
"This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately… Please forgive the naivety; I’m still relatively new to studying Thelema.
I have noticed a lot of similarities in the way Thelemites address the HGA and the way Christians address god. Some examples are like: the HGA will let certain events happen to you in your life to teach you lessons or prepare you for enlightenment. There’s the idea out there that your HGA will punish you for certain things. I have read from some posts on here, people saying to trust in the direction their HGA is guiding them. There also seems to be some kind of notion that the HGA has a plan for each individual’s life. "
Yes, in my experience of Protestant Christianity, you might say that they preach the ideal of "a personal relationship with God" that my own journey has led me to understand as being perfected and fulfilled in the occultist's conception of Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA.
"The emphasis on the discovery and alignment with True Will is also of high importance, although, I haven't been able to understand/reconcile whether the True Will this refers to belongs to the individual (self) or the HGA (in Christianity: Thy [god's] will be done.)"
"In Christianity, it’s pretty straightforward: the self is the soul, which is separate from and created by god. In Thelema, it seems as though the HGA/the genius could be the true self, and the ego is just a lower projection/result of the HGA. Am I on the right track or even close here?"
That's the general direction, though you might find disagreement on specifics. It can get tricky tracing the divisions and unities of Self when trying to imagine it and describe it all the way from the top the the bottom at once, or vice versa.
The dividing line rests upon precisely that issue of whether or not there is inherent unity or separation from God. Christianity has put all its eggs in the basket of inherent separation, and so it has no theological language to describe the unitary realizations of the higher mystical states. There is never any real unity with God that could be described as "self." If it's experienced, it's expressed as a "grace" where one is given an "experience" of being lost in God. There is, however, no language to express any understanding of a higher level reality where there is no division between God and self. That barrier always exists (theologically).
Because of this separation, humans are told to understand themselves as fundamentally flawed in their reasoning ability. God's Will is the only will that is of importance, and any will considered arising from the self is seen as evil and in opposition to God's will. In the end, the religious authorities go around setting the proper boundaries for anything that can be interpretted as God's will, which ends up making sure it agrees with their will, etc.. It's like a mind-knot that gets put on people so that they have no idea what to do and remain completely uncertain and looking to the community of faith for approval. Their ideal of a person finding their true will is finding complete submission to the Church. I've seen that particular discipline expressed by Jesuits, and it is worthy, but ...they are the salt of the earth, and we...?
"I spent my whole childhood listening to people say that god was telling them to do one thing or another. I've always believed this was just that person's way hiding behind divine justification to do whatever they wanted, and that they weren't able to back up these feelings with reasoning or didn't want to admit to wanting it. Maybe the concept of the HGA can be abused in this fashion??"
Well, yes, but it's different. In this environment, your HGA doesn't attempt to tell everyone else what they need to be doing with their own lives, as frequently "happens" with other circles. This is a bit more of an individualistic school of hard knocks, or has the license to be so if necessary.
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I really like thinking about Christianity in positive terms. I have been doing more and more of this lately. Part of this is just because I can't reasonably justify bashing the religion as a whole—that would be reductive. There really is no reason to assume they were wrong about everything, and that they were intentionally, flat out evil. I take solace in the fact that there is a mystery religion of profound mystical effectiveness at its heart. As such, there would be things one would expect Thelema to share with it. It's common for us to draw some distinction between the old Aeon paradigm and the new, but there is no reason why we should not also meditate on the similarities.
Something that I was reminded about in another thread was the profoundly symbolic reading one could make of the Passion of Christ and his subsequent resurrection after three days in the tomb. If this were seen as a, mystical, alchemical, or magical allegory, and not as literal fact, then it is easily seen as an account of the apotheosis of the last prophet, very much along the lines of Crowley's own crossing of the Abyss and his subsequent achievement of the grade of Magus. There is no obvious reason, outside of a limited political insecurity, to assume there is any real antagonism between the two systems, not in their pure, uncorrupted forms.
Admittedly, Christianity is out of date in some fundamental sense having to do with how we are learning to view reality. It has also been around long enough to have become mired in a lot of corruption and error, but this is mostly its exoteric manifestation, not its esoteric heart.
Love and Will
Love and Will
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Well, I'm sure you know of my propensity toward Jung, and you can probably go ahead and color me with broad strokes in the colors of that field more than any other.
I am frequently struck by the contrast between Jesus referring to his disciples as "the salt of the Earth" while he also said, "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!"
I am of the general opinion that Christianity served this function during the last Aeon. It preserved - and preserved more than it is easily possible to communicate - through famines, wars, political intrigues, and plagues.
But here, at the rise of the age of man (humanism in all its forms?) it's at a loss. How can it transform itself when its very nature and purpose has been to preserve and to protect that which now needs to evolve?
I used to be very angry with the Pope. I've had just a few years to study these things, and they've had centuries. But these days, I picture him in the cockpit of a very old time/consciousness machine trying to find the proper bearings to land the big damned old thing in the current Aeon without destroying absolutely everything with it, and thus defeating the point of their role in preservation. Conundrum. That's what I think about Rome these days - if they are indeed following along in the procession of the Aeons as they have certainly had the opportunity to be.
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I don't see why any exoteric framework cannot be used for any purpose the magician so desires, although some frameworks would naturally be a better fit than others. I see it as a matter of politics, Christianity definitely has a large fan base.
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Thank you all so much for the feedback!! It definitely helps shed some light on some things for me..
@Aegis55 said
"Yes, in my experience of Protestant Christianity, you might say that they preach the ideal of "a personal relationship with God" that my own journey has led me to understand as being perfected and fulfilled in the occultist's conception of Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA."
How could this be? Christianity attempting to find its way from the old Aeon to the new one?
I know we already have a thread on thelemic christianity, but I was just curious as to how those similarities in the relationship between the devotee and the HGA (or god in the christian sense) are evidence that they are the same? I didn't think it was possible, but I do believe that's why those similarities caused me so much initial confusion..
Thanks again everyone,
-ANEA
"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." -
"I was just curious as to how those similarities in the relationship between the devotee and the HGA (or god in the christian sense) are evidence that they are the same?"
How are similarities evidence that they are the same?
I think I know what you're heading for, but to be sure, do you mind clarifying the question? Similarity is evidence of sameness.
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@Aegis55 said
"do you mind clarifying the question?"
No problem, I'm communication challenged sometimes. Just see any thread where Redd Fezz and I talk in circles for 10+ posts..
My question is: how can you say that the thelemic concept of K&C with the HGA is the same as the protestant idea of a personal relationship with God, based solely on similarities in the characteristics of the relationships?
The idea I originally put forth was that, christians often use "god told me to do X,Y,Z" because they were too chicken to own up to wanting to do something. I asked if it were possible that Thelemites might be doing something similar with their supposed relationship with the HGA. Thus, abusing the concept. I understand where you're coming from about not having the HGA tell others what to do, but I was referring to using it as justification for the individuals decisions they didn't want to own up to.
My statements are pretty convoluted, so let me give you an example. A guy is dating a girl. He decides he doesn't want to date her anymore. Since they're both Christians, he simply says that "God is telling me that I shouldn't be with you anymore." Basically because he's too spineless to own up to his own feelings, and has to hide behind his "god," using this external entity as an excuse.
However, Frater Potater confirmed my thoughts on the position of the HGA, it makes this situation much more honest for the Thelemite since the HGA is the True Self, and therefore, the individual is simply following their True Will.
@Aegis55 said
"Similarity is evidence of sameness."
I would have to respectfully disagree. Either that, or draw a distinction between same and sameness. You see, there are plenty of situations where two things can have similarities and not actually be the same thing, but still have "sameness."
Really appreciate you taking the time to respond, Aegis55.
-ANEA
"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." -
@Idiosyncratic said
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@Aegis55 said
"I picture him in the cockpit of a very old time/consciousness machine trying to find the proper bearings to land the big damned old thing in the current Aeon without destroying absolutely everything with it, and thus defeating the point of their role in preservation. "Do you think it's true what they say about the Vatican holding the largest occult book collection in the world? I suspect that there are very few people in the WMT that would turn down an opportunity to browse the Vatican Library.
"I would personally hand the pope my left nut for unrestricted, lifetime access to the vaults and their resources(translators, etc). Lol
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Here is what I said:
"Yes, in my experience of Protestant Christianity, you might say that they preach the ideal of "a personal relationship with God" that my own journey has led me to understand as being perfected and fulfilled in the occultist's conception of Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA. "
I'm saying the aspiration is the same. The expectations, experiences, and explanations change along the journey.
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"Do you think it's true what they say about the Vatican holding the largest occult book collection in the world?"
I astral projected to the vatican library when i was a young boy but an angel with a flaming sword blocked my path.
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When I actually busy myself with the Work, then philosophy and vocabulary fall away and become irrelevant. As a child (raised a Protestant Xian), I thought in terms of "inviting Jesus into my heart" and "seeking God's purpose for my life". As a Thelemite, I think in terms of "invoking the HGA" and "seeking my True Will." But my interior experience and my intimate relationship with the Cosmic Whatnot are "ever the same", probably unique to myself, and beyond words and symbols. Likewise, I may think that I'm meditating or praying or invoking or contemplating, but increasingly it seems to me that there is only one practice.
So what does it mean that I call myself a Thelemite and abhor Xianity? Perhaps no more than that I like kale and can't abide asparagus.
"Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are & not other." I've had Xian phases, Buddhist phases, Thelemic phases, and others. But in my inmost self, I am none of these, and my relation to this world may grow deeper but not other.
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@gmugmble said
"...I like kale and can't abide asparagus. "
That's just wrong!
Admit it, Kale is disgusting while Asparagus rocks!Love and Will
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@RobertAllen said
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@gmugmble said
"...I like kale and can't abide asparagus. "That's just wrong!
Admit it, Kale is disgusting while Asparagus rocks!Love and Will"
The fool eateth kale and understandeth it not. Let him come through the first ordeal & it will be to him ... oh, never mind. -
I think we need to clarify the sect of Christinaity. However, Christianity tends to hold to the idea of a transcendent God that is separate from humanity, wherein the HGA is a part of who we are.
Quite frankly, there are so many qualities to the Christian idea of God that it would be almost impossible to classify "Him" within a Qabbalistic or Thelemic context. It really depends on what aspect you are referring to.
There are some aspects that can be found in every Sephirah of the Tree of Life- insofar as I have studied.I have given a bit of reflection to "Love is the Law, Love under Will" and how that applies to the Catholic Dogma, as I myself used to be Catholic. I feel that the idea of the HGA, within the Catholic religion has almost a 1:1 correspondence with the exception that the HGA in the Thelemic context is a part of ourself, wherein in the Catholic faith, it visualized as an external entity. In either path, it is our connection to divine powers. I do, however, find tremendous correlation with the concept of "Love", as is written in the Law, and the concept of the Holy Spirit.
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@HWNH said
"I feel that the idea of the HGA, within the Catholic religion has almost a 1:1 correspondence with the exception that the HGA in the Thelemic context is a part of ourself, wherein in the Catholic faith, it visualized as an external entity."
Yes, I was saying the same thing from a Protestant perspective. It shares the same exception as well.
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Here is an article that talks a little about this subject. At the end, there is a link to a video clip by Lon Duquette where he mentions the similarity in the goal of every ecstatic mystic that every walked the face of the earth. Another aspect of the video clip that is a little bit off the subject, never the less, very interesting, is that, keep in mind, when you watch the video clip, the prince also represents the Beast 666 (the number for the sphere of Tiphareth is 666) and see how he is consorting with Babalon, the feminine aspect, up and down the tree. When she rises back up the tree to the Throne of Binah, this is the aspect of her that we are most familiar with, where she is riding atop the Beast with seven heads. The seven heads are the seven lower sephiroth of the tree. - unusmundus-melie.blogspot.com/2011/05/writing-by-me-thelema-morality-and.html
Also, this article about Baphomet, Alchemy and The Temple of Solomon contains some good info on what kinds of similarities there are. - unusmundus-melie.blogspot.com/2009/09/writing-by-me-baphomet-alchemcy-temple.html
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[emphasis mine]
@Bereshith said
"I used to be very angry with the Pope. I've had just a few years to study these things, and they've had centuries. But these days,*** I picture him in the cockpit of a very old time/consciousness machine trying to find the proper bearings to land the big damned old thing in the current Aeon without destroying absolutely everything with it***, and thus defeating the point of their role in preservation. Conundrum. That's what I think about Rome these days - if they are indeed following along in the procession of the Aeons as they have certainly had the opportunity to be."
I was rather struck by some wording in Pope Benedict's resignation announcement [emphasis mine]:
@Pope Benedic said
"However, in today's world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, ***in order to govern the bark of Saint Peter ***and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me. "
"...in order to govern the bark of Saint Peter..." Sometimes their choice of words makes me wonder how much they understand. Perhaps it's a vain hope. I don't know.
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Bereshith;
Sometimes your choice of words makes me wonder how much you understand, or refuse to understand. Granted, the Roman Catholic Church is an Old Aeon vessel - but it was a righted vessel at one time or another. Don't throw the baby out with the baptism. -
93,
""...in order to govern the bark of Saint Peter..." Sometimes their choice of words makes me wonder how much they understand. Perhaps it's a vain hope. I don't know."
I've always held the belief that the pope has all the 'old' books that they seized during the witch trials. I also believe them to be intelligent people who have probably learnt classical mythology at some point and also will be well aware of Thelema and other religions, even if they view it as a competition of faith. They must know the origins of their own religion lies in a various gluing together of pagan myths.
I also liked his emphasis on strength, relating to Geburah and back to Ra Hoor Khuit. But maybe that's just a coincidence.
Its a shame the smiling pope (Pope John Paul I) was assassinated, he had some ideas which would have made me respect Catholicism more.
Anyway, thanks for sharing.
93's.