"This book shall be translated into all tongues"
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93,
I've been interested to find out if a Latin translation has ever been made. I'm thinking down the road when I get my Latin strong enough it'd make for a great exercise to make one myself, but I'm kinda surprised no one I've spoken to so far knows of one. Much of the Book makes me think a Latin translation might reveal a lot for meditation.
93 93/93.
AL H-ShMATh
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I started a Latin one, got about a page into it plus making some global changes, solved a few specific problems... then got derailed by too much else to do (and quit when I hit the first construction that I knew I'd have to spend a very long time resolving).
There are some very unique problems with translating Liber L. One (that many would ignore) is that some passages have obvious significance in terms of the number of words in a phrase. In practice, some of this probably has to be ignored, but I'd hope that every reasonable effort was made to salvage those that are salvageable. (E.g., we may not be able to keep Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law at 37 letters, but could we at least keep it at 11 words? That sort of thing.)
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There's a Swedish translation, but a native speaker told me that it's not very good.
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@Elmida said
"Whatever happened to Dutch? Is that not a language anymore?"
Yeah, it's a language, but who speaks it except for the Dutch?!!!
I'm making a joke here because every Dutch person I have ever known speaks like three other languages, fluently!There is an interesting, and I suspect very tricky conversation worth having here though. I have often wondered about the fact that Crowley was English, or rather that the prophet was Crowley—an Englishman. Combine this with the fact that English is pretty much a default language almost everywhere you go—the result of England's age of empire, but also the economic and cultural powerhouse that is America. One wonders how things would have gone if France or Spain had gotten the upper hand in the America's.
hmmm, comlicated...
Love and Will
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I'm interested in creating a website with all translations available. Also looking in to having the option for a print-on-demand service via lulu.com or the sort. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to crowdsource the effort by first resorting to thelemites with expertise in other languages to help maintain the mystical meaning of verses (infinite space infinite stars).
Sidenote: I find it interesting Chinese is leading the charge in the poll above. China being such a liberty starved society, it would be interesting to see how an eastern mind would receive the book.
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If I were not a native English speaker and had to rely on a translation I would have questions. For example, is there any official authorization process by which a translation is vetted? If so, what are the criteria for acceptance?
Love and Will
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@everyone: Alright, so I can google and hunt all I want but to save me some time if anyone knows of any current online translations, let me know so I can start gathering ones that are already completed.
@IASVN: thanks for the offer. Jim says he has a french translation and assume that one is sufficient.
@Jim: are your spanish and french copies online?
@Robert: I highly doubt there is an official authorization process, we don't want to get all catholic church on liber al. My method is to start many small fires and fan them into a flame. Gotta start somewheres..
So far I've lined up quite a few linguists, some of them PhDs. It will be interesting to see their responses once I begin having them translate the work. "what the eff!? Pecking at the eyes of Jezuz omg!!"
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93,
I know it's not a priority tongue but I'll be translating Liber Al into Turkish
in a month and posting the link here for all who may be concerned.This effort is to compensate my first awful translation
of the book - circa 2003 - and when done, it will serve as an alternative to
the Oliver Aran translation - the only TR translation available at the moment.Though I'm not an initiate of any order, I trust my capacity to
reflect the poetic depth of the text and this time
(unlike my puerile first attempt) i'll be devoting special
attention to the numeric values involved.93,
M. -
This strikes me as internal evidence against the Comment's validity since any translation must be an interpretation of the translator. I don't think it's a book that can really be translated well at all, presuming you intend to give any flavor beyond a basic 1-to-1. Possibly this is just a descriptive prediction instead of a command.???
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@Escarabaj said
"This strikes me as internal evidence against the Comment's validity since any translation must be an interpretation of the translator. I don't think it's a book that can really be translated well at all, presuming you intend to give any flavor beyond a basic 1-to-1. Possibly this is just a descriptive prediction instead of a command.???"
Enter the fascinating world of translation!
You would almost have to have an advanced mystic/magiciain in the Thelemic tradition re-write the book. This is how translation in theater works—the best translations are more often adaptations by playwrights that somehow manage to transmit the original spirit of the text. To the extent we English speakers have faith in the guiding intelligence of Aiwass as presented through the medium of Aleister Crowley, a best case scenario would be for a non-English speaker would be to believe in the authenticity of the translator of the text they are reading. It means a lot to be able to satisfy yourself that the words are presented by someone who, for lack of a better way to put it, is the DEAL!
Barring this, a clear set of objectives and limitations can at least be met, signed off on, and set forth in an introduction so people know what they are getting and what is missing. By order of the book itself, a reproduction of the original in the writing of the Beast should accompany all such attempts, and maybe this will act as something like a talisman to help transmit the 'original spirit.'
Love and Will
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@Robert: Great points.
I think it's worth a try. As Voltaire said, "The perfect is the enemy of the good." And not as in "good enough" but the best we can do with the tools we have at our disposal right now. Would it be ideal to have Magus translators preserving the ideal in the new tongue? Perhaps. Who knows, maybe new mysteries will arise from the new translations. Although I don't know arabic, i tried my best to digest the Qu'ran despite the nature of biliteral and triconsonantal roots. And because of my efforts, I got a lot of great stuff out of it. Stuff Muhammad probably didn't intend to convey.
But that's the nature of language right? Even in english there is disagreement regarding segments of Legis, so will it be in other tongues. Even if there is misunderstanding ...."In the beginning doth the Magus speak Truth, and send forth Illusion and Falsehood to enslave the soul.Yet therein is the Mystery of Redemption."
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93,
@Foolster said
"But that's the nature of language right? Even in english there is disagreement regarding segments of Legis, so will it be in other tongues. Even if there is misunderstanding ...."In the beginning doth the Magus speak Truth, and send forth Illusion and Falsehood to enslave the soul.Yet therein is the Mystery of Redemption.""
Right on! "There must ever be division in the word." An analogy I have in my head is that the language of Liber AL is like a prism. Translating it into another language is like holding up another prism in front of it: inevitably you're only going to get a portion of the light from the original English version. (You might argue that a prism that caught all the light could be possible; certainly, but it would have to cover tightly the whole face of the BOTL "prism," and therefore would itself be the exact same language!) So this is argument for "always with the original in the English."
But by holding other "prisms" up to it (translating into different tongues, or even numerous translations into a given tongue) various insights may be obtained.
I think it would be great for dedicated Thelemites to, at some point in their "career," be able to both copy out the English BOTL from memory and to translate it into another tongue. It seems reasonable that the process of translation for an individual would be partly intellectual, but largely also intuitive. In this case, the emphasis is no longer on a translation that numerous people could gain insight into on par with the English; instead the emphasis is on individual, personal revlation.
93 93/93
AL H-ShMATh
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There are several translations in Italian.
One from the SOTVL to be found on their website and one, IIRC made by Alberto Moscato and published by the OTO.
Both of them are adequate, nothing more.