The Great Work - How do you define and live it?
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@Froclown said
"The Esoteric tradition can only exist within the Exoteric school of religion."
Prove this without presupposing materialism.
"Religion is a set of practices than express the esoteric core idea which, unites people as a community and a common tradition to their culture climate, Blood and soil. Links people to the cycles of nature and their productive culmination of labour on the land."
This is only true of those religions which fit that definition.
"OTO was the exoteric vessel than Crowley chose to express Thelema, and A.'.A.'. the esoteric system of initiation."
O.T.O. is one particular club among many. It has the important distinction of also controlling the Aleister Crowley literary estate.
"Sure there are other orders that also exist than can link to the same core of Thelema. But as Crowley designed it during his life OTO was meant to be the major order that replaces all the old aeon orders than continue to link to the Esoteric inner tradition my a formula other than that of Thelema."
This forum has no relationship to O.T.O. whatsoever (except that some people on this forum are also members of O.T.O.). Generally, we feel that O.T.O. matters mostly should be discussed in O.T.O. contexts. (Occassionally some reference serves a discussion occurring here.)
"Crowly would also agree we are living in the "Kali Yuga" and would say that liberal modernism will destroy the world by fire, and only those life boats of Tradition than cling to the Thelemic system will survive, e.g. The OTO."
Sigh. (Lots of suppositions in that sentence, not worth pointing out.)
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Very similar, yes
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@Dar said
"Dar wrote:
... and I suppose members of the A.'.A.'. can shoot lightning bolts out of their arses too? "As Crowley proved, being a member of the A.'.A.'. is not only about what comes OUT of one's arse. "Invocation" is just as important as "banishing" -- and sometimes more fun!!!
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@Frater 639 said
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@Dar said
"Dar wrote:
... and I suppose members of the A.'.A.'. can shoot lightning bolts out of their arses too? "As Crowley proved, being a member of the A.'.A.'. is not only about what comes OUT of one's arse. "Invocation" is just as important as "banishing" -- and sometimes more fun!!!
"I'd love to see one of the Brethren pull a rabbit out of their arse
How's that for an invocation? -
@Solitarius said
"I'd love to see one of the Brethren pull a rabbit out of their arse
How's that for an invocation?"You know the traditional association of rabbits with the moon?
Also, the practice of mooning?So, this would be a trivial act—dropping ones pants and showing someone your butt. I'm not impressed.
Love and Will
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The lesser work then is personally to develop and focus oneself to perform that one single task, that life's quest forged by birth in the mystery of incarnation without distraction, with tireless energy and confidence and to take measures to train and develop one's natural skills and qualities necessary to that task.
The Great Work, is to take all the individuals who are focused on performing their WILL and function and organise them together in such a way that, the activity and production of their labours compliment one another to a collective goal as a community. As one can perfectly design a gear too 100% precision, laser cut, polished, made of tempered metal, a perfect gear. That gear alone can not perform it's function, it must be placed next to another gear, which is preferable a gear as well crafted and suited to it's own unique function.
Now you have a whole box of gears, springs, cogs, buttons, etc, but what good are they if not arranged into the right order as a system that makes a clock. Each gear grinding against the other, springs pushing and pulling parts together than do not compliment each other. The work of each part is perfect, it's the best part it can be. Yet the Great work the creation of a system of parts, the clock, in which each part can perform it's own function efficiently and smoothly with it's complimentary parts, has not been established.
Now we are each a part in the great work, and sitting in our room alone polishing and perfecting our own gear will not get the great work of the clock built, we must go out and unite our gears with others and we need to learn which gears compliment and which one's grind. So than the higher initiates can organise a blue print for the most efficient clock out of the known parts available.
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@Froclown said
"The Great Work, is to take all the individuals who are focused on performing their WILL and function and organise them together in such a way that, the activity and production of their labours compliment one another to a collective goal as a community."
The universe - life itself - has already organized them. This is a fait accompli. In fact, they need never encounter each other or have any knowledge of each other - their primary community is in their enlightened humanhood.
You're very stuck on outer-world, material organization and structure, aren't you!
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Froclown. Perhaps you are familiar with the semanticist Alfred Korzybski? He was famous for stating, "the map is not the territory". The mental map you project on your sliver of territory does not come close to replicating the depth and complexity of Deep Reality. Your analogy is good should not be limited to how you wish to apply it literally. I'm not one to argue, but I'm wondering if it's possible you can STOP with your banter, sit back and ask yourself, "Is my view of the situation incomplete? Are there perhaps others who have taken in a greater field of view?" Consider that. You're gunning to perfect the art of mundane thought, but a mind all logic is like a knife all blade. You're severely limited the potential experiences you could incur but making absolute declarative "being" statements, as if your finite mind has grasped the infinite. That's all I have for you.
To answer my own question, I have found that the Great Work is something I meditate on daily. (I even programming my cell phone to message me everyday at the same time "Are you practicing The Great Work!?"
) Not only meditate but practice of course. And in the course of my practice I began to experiment with just how far one can take it when it comes to direct involvement in the advancement of humanity. When I was attending a private College in the NW, I did an experiment where through various rituals I would draw down a lot of energy and project it in form over a the small town where the college was located. The purpose and quality of this energy was intended to essentially tickle the collective kundalini of students on campus. I will be brief in details for the sake of getting on with it, but I should say I kept notes of specific events I worked to create which manifested themselves in exactitude with my intentions. It was my first experiment at directly/indirectly affecting a collective for the purpose of seeing if it were possible, and without a doubt it was. The college became immersed in what everyone began referring to as "an outpouring of the Holy Spirit." Students said that the gift of prophecy had shown itself on campus. Kids spoke in tongues. A few kids even had their kundalini fully rise in my presence. There was a thematic dream that made the rounds as well, which was very specific and occurred with random individuals. The dream consisted of a man walking into a room w/ red light emitting from his mouth and eyes. People would begin to feel an electrical charge rising up to their heart causing them to awake with nervous anxiety. This was a very reserved christian university that is at the extreme opposite of the pentecostal movement, which makes it even more intriguing.This lasted for the amount of time I spent every day in meditation drawing down the energy and projecting it in geometric formation over the town, and it ended when I ended my practice. It was like water had been thrown on the fire and there was a lull and sense of depression, as if to ask "what happened? Where did it go?" In retrospect, it was naive of me to do what I did, but It was a learning experience that taught me some things about projecting my will in places it has not been formally invited.
Anyway, I am sharing that because there has been nonsense tossed around about how it's ONLY possible to do the great work by direct physical interaction. Nothing against that, we need shovelers, just as much as we need hidden architects.
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What you claim here is that you imagined some nonsense, then you in a most uncontrolled and unscientific way claimed that you nonsense caused some other nonsense, and then smugly congratulate yourself for having imaginary powers than have imaginary effects.
Yes and one time I concentrated really hard on a black diamond of construction paper and it filled up with so much "energy" than my friend who is a self proclaimed psychic, after I told he about it, she said, Wow, like I could feel that energy in all the way at my house. Then when she touched the paper, it discharged so much "energy" than she gasped and said it produced an aura of bliss in her.
That proves I have really strong "Powers"
EEEERRRR
That's all bullshit! -
I don't know where you get the idea that all these weird powers and other planes of existence and such are necessary for Thelema.
Captain Fuller in his book "A star in the West" wrote allot on the merits of Crowley's Philosophy and did not include any such nonsense. He called it Phyrro-Zoroastrianism.
Crowely himself though often indicating that he had leaning towards supernatural explanations almost always included the rational materialist alternative perspective as well. The effects of magick and described as potentially effects on the mind, he explains than past life experiences could very well be dreams that express some unconscious aspect of the personality and not really indicate reincarnation at all, and the entire Gnostic mass was written from a purely scientific materialist perspective.
In all his life and experience, Crowley himself could not come to a final conclusion about if his experiences were indication of supernatural worlds and effects or materialist brain activity. If Crowley could not conclusively prove to himself that these hypotheses are true, then why would we want to waste time considering such hypotheses, which are generally vague, ill defined and at any rate unfalsifiable, rather than to discover the True material cause for our experiences.
There was a tribe that made women put nails in their apples because of the story of adam and eve and the nails represent christ. The women who nailed the apples were ok, those who stopped got really sick, so they said this proves the curse of eve is true. Well it turns out the women there had low iron diets and the nails seeped iron into the apples, thus the women who didn't eat the apple got anaemic. So you see their was a real physical cause, hidden behind the superstitious beliefs.
My postulate is that there is ALWAYS a physical material cause to everything, and superstition only hides than truth.
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When referencing Crowley for your materialistic POV (which you are free to do), I hope you recall that when he wrote "The Initiated Interpretation of Magick" (as found in Matther's translation of The Goetia), he was just barely a boy and when he wrote The Vistion & The Voice, he was a full Magister. There you will know the difference.
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You mean that his views seemed to have changed after years of cocaine and hashish use, which are known to cause cognitive changes that make people less strictly rational, subject to mania and paranoia, and less critical of their subjective perceptions and more willing to accept impressions at how things seem in place of scientifically verified facts?
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Life offers many opportunities to see from different sides of the fence at different points in our life.
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I already said, if you can show me your procedures and methodology, and let me review your data, show that your performed controlled experiments with verifiable results.
I will be more than happy to repeat your experiment myself, I have been trained in such methods, so I know how to get state board authorisation and will gather a good test sample. I may even be able to get funding. I will test it out in the controlled lab, and see if we get any results than statistically deny the null hypothesis.
If I find conclusive proof that there are such non-material things, I will be glad to put your name on my study. Since so far in hundreds of years of science no one has done such a thing, we may even win a nobel prize.
But if all anyone can give me are anecdotal stories about things that don't even relate to anything sensible. "I imagined a blue light covered a whole city of people and later I heard that some of them reported feeling spiritual" I will take that as nonsense, not as proof of anything.
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You're interesting to watch, in a certain light. The extremism is obviously serving as a compensatory mechanism to protect you from a Huge Scary Multiverse filled with all manner of unexplainable phenomena. Good luck overcoming your fears.
Anyway, It is obvious you are a waste of time to
as when dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases and so i think you've had your say and the respectful thing to do would be to start a separate thread where you can bash our brief statements and let those of us happily carry on who don't want to waste our time arguing.In conlusion, there is no conclusion. Things will go on as they always have, getting weirder all the time.
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I would like to link to some one who it seems took it upon themselves to write in my defence.
And this other really amazing essay, which is written in a much more academic style than my tendency to polemic, but expresses all the same ideas that I try to convey.
helema-and-skepticism.blogspot.com/2011/06/introduction.html