Problems with asana
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I don't think that blind trust would get you anywhere, and as a Thelemite it should be right off your chart so to speak.
Sure, trust one's superiors if you work within a given system, but just because you trust them it doesn't mean you just follow blindly, if your neophyte said something stupid like "Thou shalt sit in asana for twelve hours, and then go jump off that cliff!" you would have every right to question that. it's not as though there was never any such thing as a crappy Neophyte.
The thing is, common sense; like in any other form of excercise, gradually increase your own abilities, rather than just go for the big one straight up; I can say from experience that gradual increases in the average time spent in meditation is a safe and secure, if a little slow, way to proceed; but then, what's the hurry?
Liber E is helpful, and it serves as a benchmark for ones practice, within the AA system, whether your are actually in the AA or are going through the grades alone, but as far as manuals on Yoga are concerned liber E is VERY basic, and anyone would do well to research outside the official AA curriculum, and maybe even seek out an experienced yoga practitioner for help.
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@Solitarius said
"Sure, trust one's superiors if you work within a given system, but just because you trust them it doesn't mean you just follow blindly, if your neophyte said something stupid like "Thou shalt sit in asana for twelve hours, and then go jump off that cliff!" you would have every right to question that."
What a pu--y
Okay, I'll give a little bit back to the thread. "Some numbness is not harmful at all.". This is like saying to an alcoholic, some alcohol is not harmful at all. Just because it's some doesn't mean that it's not harmful. Some fire in the kitchen is not harmful at all. Our physical bodies are alot more intelligent than what our culture thinks. It's like a being on its own. Either way, it's just a distraction to try to outlive one's body with these things.
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@Vlad said
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@Solitarius said
"Sure, trust one's superiors if you work within a given system, but just because you trust them it doesn't mean you just follow blindly, if your neophyte said something stupid like "Thou shalt sit in asana for twelve hours, and then go jump off that cliff!" you would have every right to question that."What a pu--y
Okay, I'll give a little bit back to the thread. "Some numbness is not harmful at all.". This is like saying to an alcoholic, some alcohol is not harmful at all. Just because it's some doesn't mean that it's not harmful. Some fire in the kitchen is not harmful at all. Our physical bodies are alot more intelligent than what our culture thinks. It's like a being on its own. Either way, it's just a distraction to try to outlive one's body with these things."
I understand your point of view but I don't think that it's quite right.
For example, if I am a non-alcoholic, then "some" alcohol does no harm at all.
If I have high colesterol, or low blood pressure, or bad circulation, or obesity, then "some" numbness is a bad thing.
Simple answer, find an asana that does not interfere too much with your circulation; while it is true that with time one can sit in say, the Dragon, for quite some time with no ill effects; if one had a health issue like those I mentioned, then you'd be a fool to try to sit in that posture for long.
I would say that would be the only excuse for changing your asana for another one; if you had some sort of problem that caused undue stress on the circulatory system, then maybe you should take up some sort of exercise to balance out the static poses of asana, just going for regular walks would do it, or maybe tai chi.
Remember that the aim of asana is to control the body, so that it no longer impinges on the mind, if you are worrying about your health whilst in the asana then you are not getting the desired result; balance is needed here, don't torture your body into submission, but lead it with great attention and sensitivity to the point where it begins to be uncomfortable, keep it there for a while, and then let it relax, in this way it will gradually become used to the posture, and the duration for which it can remain there will slowly increase.
After all, the body is the only tool you have, train it, but don't break it in the process.
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@Solitarius said
"I understand your point of view but I don't think that it's quite right.
For example, if I am a non-alcoholic, then "some" alcohol does no harm at all.
If I have high colesterol, or low blood pressure, or bad circulation, or obesity, then "some" numbness is a bad thing."
You're entitled to think that some numbness in the way mr. tannhauser spoke isn't a bad thing.
ps.
"don't torture your body into submission, but lead it with great attention and sensitivity to the point where it begins to be uncomfortable, keep it there for a while, and then let it relax"
This is what I'm getting at.
pps.
Just noticed this in Liber ABA:
"Also beware of constricted circulation, which produces numbness more than it does pain."
It's dumb for anyone to harm themselves in this kind of silly way. Btw, I like Dragon Asana, I've used it before knowing the word Asana, or that it's used by others in that way.
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@Solitarius said
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It would be daft to try to sit in your asana for an hour from the start of your probation to its conclusion; that would be like trying to begin pushing weights by using the maximum load from day one, your enthusiasm would soon burn out once you realised the impossibility of the act."But at the same time if you never dare to, never try to go "too much" you don't know what "too much" is. IME trying to discerning intellectually how much is "too much" or "appropriate" makes the practice much less useful and much much slower.
If you find a good teacher in martial arts and you practice cardio with him, for example he doesn't let you behave on what you think it's "fine" for you. He push farther and farther and either makes you think you will die (and you don't), especially at beginning. Naturally doing this by yourself it's more difficult, but with a little of will it is possible (and I think it's either one of the points).
@Solitarius said
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I have not "mastered" asana, and when i first began practicing meditation five or six years ago i could barely sit still for ten minutes at a time, I was a lazy practitioner, (I still am sometimes) but now, on a good day i will sit for half an hour, I find it better to get your body accustomed to longer periods as time goes on, rather than force it on blindly, because I guarantee you that if you sit in the dragon for half an hour your legs will go to sleep, I have yet to push past 35 minutes, but i can tell you that at the moment that involves several minutes of acute agony upon quitting the asana."Here, however, there's a discern to be made. Also in the God position your body gets "numb". It depends what numbness you talk about. If it is numbness caused by lack of circulation, then it's bad (really bad), if it is numbness caused by the body going to sleep (as it does) then it is what it will do (keeping the body still will force the brain to discard the input from it). But the comment in Liber IV is right, because if numbness is not caused by circulation you will have pain along it (either coming in waves). IMO you are relaxing your physical too much on your heels and for what I can discern in the technique (and the way I do it), the body should not be "resting" or "totally relaxing" (Liber IV part I explains it better than I can do).
For example, also if you use the God position you can either feel no pain at all if your arms relax totally and you have them resting on your thigs. So, to assure you don't do it, it's better to keep the hands on the knees, so that you have to keep that position with tension.
There are two ways, in fact, to receive no more impressions from the body. The first is to relax it fully, in steps (for example laying in a bed, progressing from the feet to the head and completely relaxing the parts of the body in full), the second to keep it still, with tension. In the first case there's no pain, but (for what I could see) you will have to do the process anew all the time, in the second the body comes to a point where when the position is took then it "shuts off" immediately, but it is a literal "fight" to conquer.
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Its never a good idea to just plonk yourself down on your ankles, I agree that this would lead to the wrong kind of constriction, I find it better to sort of balance yourself in between your ankles and your knees, you get more tension that way, and you need it to stay upright for any length of time.
I have found that if I relax too much in asana I simply fall asleep and topple over, so tension and the discomfort caused by that help to keep me awake, it is for this reason that I do not use the corpse, I sleep in that posture and my body associates it with sleep, I need the tension of an upright asana to stay awake, and I do not use the God posture because I travel a lot and don't always have a chair handy, but I have yet to go someplace that doesn't have a floor.
As for numbness, I don't think I've ever had total loss of sensation, there is always some discomfort, but to my mind its just your body letting you know that its still there; although very recently I've gotten to the point where I am sort of detached from it for short periods during the latter part of the practice, the discomfort is still there, but as if it were in the next room as it were, and not particularly irritating.
I went through a period of being really worried about my circulation, more as a hypochondriac than for any other reason, but that was just my mind trying to find excuses not to practice, once I stopped doing that and simply looked at what I was doing intelligently I was able to discern the difference between a little numbness (which I still maintain that you will get if you assume ANY posture for any length of time) and potentially dangerous levels of circulation loss.
A.C. himself says in Yoga for Yahoos that the student must not mind if quitting the asana involves several minutes of acute agony.
That said I don't find it necessary to sit for prolonged periods every single day, as long as I do some asana each day, for at least ten or fifteen minutes, but I try to push it to the limit at least once or twice a week; (I have now gone past the 35 minute mark by the way).
One other thing I find helps immensely is to go out and walk a mile or two before practice.
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@Solitarius said
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As for numbness, I don't think I've ever had total loss of sensation, there is always some discomfort, but to my mind its just your body letting you know that its still there; although very recently I've gotten to the point where I am sort of detached from it for short periods during the latter part of the practice, the discomfort is still there, but as if it were in the next room as it were, and not particularly irritating.
"IME the time it takes for your body to become anesthetized becomes less and less as time goes on. I've come to the point that I lose almost all sensation of the body after 4-5 minutes (the moment the pain starts) and it seems like I'm "floating".
When I started I could not reach that point at all, then it started happening at the end of the practice, then it took less and less time and became more tied to the pain starting, till reaching the point I'm now that they come togheter and last for the whole practice (the pain comes in waves - sometimes it stops, then resume, sometimes it is always present but in lower/stronger waves - and sometimes a wave can be almost unbearable; I must add that the pain, at last for me, it is not always pain in the full literal sense, it can be a sort of "electric/emotional" discomfort as inside your bones - I have not proper words to describe it - but this type of pain it's MUCH more difficult to endure).
I think that when you conquer the Asana the pain stops altogheter and the anesthesia comes somewhat immediately (or so what Crowley wrote seems to indicate that happening). So I'm doubling my effort on it (I do keep the Asana four times a day for an hour - I have not to work in this period so I can work at it much more - and it is a literal fight with myself to keep it that much, sometimes at 50 or so minutes it is like all the universe tells you "it's enough", but I grind my teeths till the end).
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An hour four times a day?
You Sir, are quite mad.
And where do you find the time? I'm far too busy trying to get by to devote that much time to practice. And what asana are you using?
I know what you mean about the pain coming in waves, initially they used to come along in tight little bunches and I had to grit my teeth to get through them, now I find that they come along at about five or ten minute intervals. I too have found that towards the end of practice I sometimes get a detached feeling, which you could describe as "floating", although I am still aware of the body, although it is as if I am one step removed from it.
What is worse than the waves of discomfort, is when some part of the body develops a pain all by itself (the knees do this sometimes) and you would give anything to just stretch that leg for a moment, but of course, the moment you do that all is lost and you have to start again.
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Having said all that, I think there is one enemy that can easily kill all practice, and its name is:
BOREDOM
honestly; is it just me or is Asana quite simply the most boring thing imaginable? Some days I'd sooner sit on hot coals or be torn apart by wolves than sit on my mat and practice.
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@Solitarius said
"An hour four times a day?
You Sir, are quite mad.
And where do you find the time? I'm far too busy trying to get by to devote that much time to practice. And what asana are you using?
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I don't work now so I have all the time I want. Anyway I have a lot of time to spare to do many other things (I'm working on Liber O part V primarily atm) the same.
6.00 AM - 7.00 AM, 12.00 AM - 01.00 PM, 18.00 PM - 19.00 PM, 23.00 PM - 24.00 PM.
Usually I don't do this much, but I wanted to see if I could conquer Asana soon (before I had to return to work), so as to benefit also the practice of Liber O (no needed, but it can help).
I use the God posture.
And yes, it is boring, a lot, but just for this it is an useful practice. All yoga I think it's extremely bothersome (apart maybe Pranayama) but that's one of the points.