How to choose a work from a thelemic perspective?
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@Los said
"It's a funny thing about doing work: doing it gives one the ability to talk about one's subject, to explain simply and clearly what it is that one is doing in the first place and how one judges success, etc. Any joker can log on to the internet and claim to have done all sorts of work -- and tell all sorts of ridiculous supernatural stories as "proof" -- and try to act all "adept-like" and "wise" or however he thinks he's supposed to act. But not everyone can clearly and simply explain (1) what the goal is, (2) the methods by which one reaches the goal, and (3) the criteria by which one can tell that the methods have worked.
"Right, which is why I question you a lot about it, since you don't say anything that cannot be found in Hessle's essay on True Will. Accusations are easy to come by, and they themselves arise from unconscious projections of ignorance, weakness, stupidity, and insanity.
@Los said
"The whole purpose of teaching other people about this subject is so that others don't have to spend years and years trying to figure out what to do in the first place, and the whole purpose of working to revise the practices and give people clues about the practices is to save them time by explaining what works and doesn't work and why.
"Your method (Hessle's method) yields one experience. Without other experiences with which to compare the one experience (as you claim yourself to have done, having a "birdseye view"), how may others make the same determinations for themselves about what works and why? Your presentation seems to assume that people should take your word for the importance of the one experience and stick with only the one method without comparing it to anything else for themselves.
Most intriguingly, though, regarding the whole of the system of advancement, you seem to focus singlemindedly on the True Will to the point of discrediting the importance of achieving Knowledge and Conversation and of the Next Step for humanity, crossing the Abyss. While such things may be extraneous to your own True Will, attempting to discredit these things for all Thelemites, in my opinion, really misses the bigger picture of the methods Crowley was trying to incorporate and why.
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@chris S said
"It seems you already know Horus Amin, the primary thing is not worrying.. its analysis of the script, the plot line of your character and how it reveals itself through every act."
can you be a little more explicit please? keep in mind i'm not from an english speaking country
would you still suggest what you said before?
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@Horus Amin said
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@chris S said
"It seems you already know Horus Amin, the primary thing is not worrying.. its analysis of the script, the plot line of your character and how it reveals itself through every act."can you be a little more explicit please? keep in mind i'm not from an english speaking country
would you still suggest what you said before?"
yes i do..
I'm suggesting that we dont initially know what is authentic for us.. ( we're all a little screwed up anyway) so actually worrying what you should be doing instead of applying the methods to what you actually are doing is counter productive.
So its just as beneficial to finish your studies.
[Edit] Back in my younger days i entered university with the desire to obtain a degree in anthropology, philosophy and comparative studies in art, science and religion. I obtained that and spent some touring and playing guitar for bands, spent quite a bit of time investigating and documenting phenomena in the field of the paranormal, traveled to Japan to further studies in Zen Buddhism, on to Venezuela to have experience in Ayahuasca under the guidance of a shaman, who was incidentally also a psychiatrist and neurologist. Became a baker, a cook,i studied massage... These days i restore classic cars for people that cant do it themselves.. anyway the the application was the same no matter what i was doing.
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@Bereshith said
"Your presentation seems to assume that people should take your word for the importance of the one experience and stick with only the one method without comparing it to anything else for themselves."
I'm presenting what I think is the correct interpretation of the material, obviously. You'll notice -- if you read enough of the threads on here or especially on Lashtal -- that people disagree with me, but their disagreement usually only goes as far as saying that they disagree (often punctuated by a claim that it's impossible or unnecessary to "reason" too much about this subject). These people who disagree usually appear strangely reluctant -- or, as I think is more likely the case, simply unable -- to present a compelling alternative argument.
You can take that information and do whatever you like with it.
"Most intriguingly, though, regarding the whole of the system of advancement, you seem to focus singlemindedly on the True Will to the point of discrediting the importance of achieving Knowledge and Conversation and of the Next Step for humanity, crossing the Abyss. While such things may be extraneous to your own True Will, attempting to discredit these things for all Thelemites, in my opinion, really misses the bigger picture of the methods Crowley was trying to incorporate and why."
First, "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel" is nothing more than a metaphor for discovering the True Will. While the achievement is often marked by a specific trance experience, the actual attainment consists of discovering the Will (or, as Crowley puts it in One Star in Sight, KCHGA
"is the essential work of every man; none other ranks with it either for personal progress or for power to help one's fellows. This unachieved, man is no more than the unhappiest and blindest of animals. He is conscious of his own incomprehensible calamity, and clumsily incapable of repairing it. Achieved, he is no less than the co-heir of gods, a Lord of Light. He is conscious of his own consecrated course, and confidently ready to run it.")I realize that certain people around here likely have a very different understanding of KCHGA, but other understandings of it aren't consistent with Crowley's writings.
Second, I don't dwell on Crossing the Abyss in my writings because it doesn't create practical changes in behavior, which is the whole point of Thelemic initiation. Erwin, who claims to be an 8=3, has some interesting writings on that particular attainment, if you're interested. Personally, I suspect you're a long way off from the Abyss, so it's nothing you have to concern yourself with now, but it might be a subject that interests you intellectually, for all I know.
So the short answer is that I do not "discredit" either the 5=6 or 8=3 attainments, both of which I consider the meat of what Thelema has to offer.
It's up to each individual to decide what to do with what I say. The only way someone has to judge me is by what I say and how well I can explain myself. If you'd like to just ignore me and do whatever you please, go right ahead. If you'd like to listen, then that would probably be good for you, since I happen to be dispensing some really good advice.
I personally could care less what you do.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
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Horus Amin
This is the kind of subject where one needs to be very careful when giving advices, so I will speak only of my own perspective.
I never had a job or interest that completely absorbed my energy like Magick does. I also considered for a long time to dedicate my full time to it.
But the very experience of Initiation has showed me an entirely new perspective.
First, the very nature of self-awareness practices is somehow aggressive. Working helps to ground my mind after intense experiences. I believe that it was called astral intoxication back in the old GD.
Second, although not working with anything resembling the Great Work, it gives me the right amount of environmental pressure to develop some of my latent abilities. Without it I get lazy, my general amount of energy drops dramatically and I lose the opportunity to observe how my mind interacts with the outer world through projection.
Third, there is the pleasure of challenge, not different from the pleasure of playing a game. It comes with some sort of detached perspective. Stress and inner friction disappear and all that remains is the joy of worry free effort.
It is easier when you have a job that fits your natural talents and inclinations. What this talents and inclinations are, you will only know by attempting different things and see how you react to them (it is what I understand when Jim says that “Life corrects you en route”).
And, maybe a more materialistc but important perspective. Good job can give good money and money can make your meditation easier.
In the end, the new perspective I have is that Magick is not only rituals and meditations, but a way to live your life, to live as a Mage, using the universe around you as a mirror where you can see and project your inner potentiality.
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Just a note before I go to bed. Karma Yoga by Vivekananda. Very insightful about how life itself can be a tool of self liberation or, how I like to think about it, “how the kingdom of heaven can be conquered with money, woman, wine and a nice new suit”.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Los's perspective is not so strange to me, in fact it's refreshing. Totally devoid of religiousness. I've typically looked to Chaoism for that quality but am always at odds with the lack of cohesion(go figure), it's nice to see it demonstrated as perfectly possible while operating from a Thelemic configuration.
I and those I tend to respect aspire to the same, describing it as simply the perspective of all one can adopt that allows the least amount of friction with natural forces rather than a religion, or even spirituality. As a Gemini, and so thoroughly word-conscious, those particular words make me cringe.
Girt with a sword.
To the original question, and Amin's comments on his most recent reply here:
I understand your frustration with collegiate hardheadedness, and your impulse/desire to return to the roots of human society and experience. That is where the real meat is, a face-to-face interaction with raw humanity. All these diplomas and "important" jobs are just hats and badges to give a sense of self worth, all the while allowing the patterns of civilization to continue down its hole by buying into it for convenience.
The only work I am pursuing within the economy is with organic markets and farmers, so that I may learn to live autonomously, healthily, and in communion with like minds establishing a sanctuary from economics, politics, media, etc. all work having the direct result of sustaining hearth and home with no intermediary forces like money and other people's agendas, which in itself is a service to those seeking the same. That's what I consider to be in line with Thelemic principal. I consider no person whole until they give as much as they take; the standard of Ma'at(and I'm still working on it, don't get me wrong!).
Also, this is not to say I don't educate myself in the sciences. I just educate myself.Perhaps such an excursion to the roots and a direct relationship with the earth away from human pretense would serve to be a grounding experience for you.(?) And who knows? You may come back to psychology, after you've cleared your head. All that education doesn't just disappear,
Love is the Law, love under will.
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Thanks a lot guys...
You are really helping me.
The more i read you the more i tend to go towards the middle path. That would be, in this case, stay away from university because i really believe what they teach doesnt make me better anymore(not in the sense i know more than them, but in the sense our styles dont mix and i have more to learn from other sources...) but also to stop masturbating philosophically and just go and establish myself as a psychoanalyst. The way you help me actually make me feel better at the idea of helping people. Because, after all, i'm just as neurotic as them.
This shit never stops. As Jim wrote it somewhere, "as long as we have a personality and use it, we get problems and have to fix it" or something like this...Also, i'm begining to think my fear of alchemical problems rising from listening to other peoples problems point out just a lack of control of my aura.
In this case it would be a great choice going for it, and facing this lack of control. 
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@P is for Pomegranate said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Perhaps such an excursion to the roots and a direct relationship with the earth away from human pretense would serve to be a grounding experience for you.(?) And who knows? You may come back to psychology, after you've cleared your head. All that education doesn't just disappear,
Love is the Law, love under will."
That's something i would love, yes. Also meet shamans and live the traditional way with them. But a litlle later in life.
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@Horus Amin said
"
That's something i would love, yes. Also meet shamans and live the traditional way with them. But a litlle later in life."
I keep telling myself that too
Good luck(and equally, astute skill!).
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@Horus Amin said
"Thanks a lot guys...
You are really helping me.
The more i read you the more i tend to go towards the middle path. That would be, in this case, stay away from university because i really believe what they teach doesnt make me better anymore(not in the sense i know more than them, but in the sense our styles dont mix and i have more to learn from other sources...) but also to stop masturbating philosophically and just go and establish myself as a psychoanalyst. The way you help me actually make me feel better at the idea of helping people. Because, after all, i'm just as neurotic as them.
This (****) never stops. As Jim wrote it somewhere, "as long as we have a personality and use it, we get problems and have to fix it" or something like this...Also, i'm begining to think my fear of alchemical problems rising from listening to other peoples problems point out just a lack of control of my aura.
In this case it would be a great choice going for it, and facing this lack of control. "and well thats the rub.. its about coming face to face with yourself in a very direct and intimate way.. and obviously you have to face that yourself
and i do understand that bit about other peoples problems all the time, after all you have your own Dharma to worry about
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@chris S said
"
and well thats the rub.. its about coming face to face with yourself in a very direct and intimate way.. and obviously you have to face that yourselfand i do understand that bit about other peoples problems all the time, after all you have your own Dharma to worry about
"yes... i thought it would be way easier than this...
I thought i knew. Now i know i dont
I feel naked, small, alone
It's getting way more interesting than what i expected