James Wasserman's new book / Guther question
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When J Daniel Gunther is first introduced , Wasserman writes that he first became aware of him through Weiser were Gunther made himslef known as an AA contact point, and after corresponding with Motta he accepted him as a superior. My question is what was the nature of Daniel's original claim as an AA contact point in the USA? I had always assumed that Dan had been initiated by Motta, but it seems like Dan was already an AA member befor even meeting Motta, but sthere is no explanation of the nature of the original claim anywhere in the book. How was Dan a contact point for AA and when he had not met or written to Motta yet? Or was his claim entirely self appointed, which I'm starting to think as it s not addressed in the book.
many thanks
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That's interesting, I was always under the impression that he was initiated up to 1=10 or 2=9 by Motta, before being expelled for AA for apparently threatening Motta's life in some way.
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AFAIK, Gunther had been practicing AA work independently before meeting Motta. There doesn't seem to be any record of him being initiated by a legit lineage until Motta.
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@Dara Allarah said
"so they instituted they own A.'.A.'. branch and acknowledged their lineage was through their initiator - Motta. After all - you cannot initiate others unless you have been initiated yourself. Now - I would not dispute their right to set up their own A.'.A.'. college, although I do think this business of having the 'true A.'.A.'.' (the one and only) is pure folly. Nor would I take issue with them claiming lineage back to Motta even though they were expelled afterwards. It's not as if Motta could take back the initiation he conferred on them, after all. "
It does seem disingenuous though that they would set up a new order and call it the A.'.A.'. when the A.'.A.'. still exists and there are still other initiates within that A.'.A.'. system who never resigned or got themselves expelled.
Also, this makes expulsion or resignation meaningless, and anyone who is expelled or falls out with their superiors and resigns can legitimately set up an order and pretend it is the original order as started by Crowley. If the A.'.A.'. lineage in question supports this way of doing things they must also support any other prominent Thelemite who gets expelled from an order and carried on regardless, claiming to be the OHO etc...
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Re: "Succes is thy proof" - even if an Order is highly successful, that won't change their history, and if they started off on a dishonest footing, they will be forever tainted by the lie of their origins.
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Although I think that a certain amount of pedigree is essential, i.e as Dar pointed out you can't initiate yourself into the A.'.A.'., other tradition of this type for that matter (except those that are self-initiatory, such as Thelemic Order of the GD).
Once you have been initiated however, you are then a Member, or should I say aspirant, of the A.'.A.'., and having received the catalyst of a temple initiation, the work of establishing a thorough connection to the A.'.A.'. proper is very much an individual thing.
Its a difficult subject, because the A.'.A.'. works on two very distinct planes. On the one hand you have the teacher/student chain thing going on to ensure that the work of each grade is carried out to the appropriate level, which although it is quite sparce within the Order's structure, it is very definite and strict.
On the other hand, no-one can confer 'actual initiation on another if that person is not prepared for it, which is the point of a Probation period.
On that level it could probably be said that 'actual initiation' comes from one's own HGA.In order for the A.'.A.'. to function properly it needs both of these aspects to function in tandem, the former preparing the aspirant, and the latter conferring the initiations in due course.
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@Archaeus said
"On the other hand, no-one can confer 'actual initiation on another if that person is not prepared for it, which is the point of a Probation period.[/quite]
I disagree completely. The process of initiation is as specific and certain as giving someone a strong laxative. It doesn't require their cooperation, other than to get the laxative down their throat or up their butt.Initiation starts something. It's an inauguration. It requires someone's cooperation to the extent of their being present and not totally derailing the event. (And, where oaths are involved as part of the reshaping of the psyche, the requirement is that they are sincere at the time of taking it.) Beyond that - think laxative.
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I just picked this book up - "In the Center of the Fire." It's an interesting - but disjointed read so far. I do enjoy personal accounts of "occult" experiences though so I'm eating it up. There a lot of synchronicity revolving around this read, I'll say that...
Was happy to find a picture that includes both Jim and Tony near the back from 1985
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I seriously doubt that most of them even reached 5=6.
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It's so sad, I previously had a lot of respect for Wasserman and was happy to ignore the fact that he never even passed 0=0 in light of some of his better work. But he not only dismisses the greater part of the A.'.A.'. movement but also ignores the Cefalu and all that followed.
He's basically saying that his version of events is the only true one and that people should listen to him only.He also ignores Motta's other students who have since formed separate lineages such as Berrson and Eales, go figure.
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@Pathanna It would be nice if Thelemites behaved like Thelemites I agree, but on the other hand when somebody turns around and denies your right to exist then he has to expect some sort of reaction don't you think?
He basically said that all AA groups other than his own are fooling themselves and are fakes, which is demonstrably not true, so I can only assume that he's trying to throw up dust to hide the facts of his own groups rather spurious beginnings.
The fact that he made his statements publicly and unequivocally, with his superiors in both AA and OTO in attendance shows that he has the blessing of both leaderships. Their lies are disgusting and serve only to bring division and conflict in an attempt to build up their own sense of self-importance by indoctrinating the younger membership of both Orders with their myth-making, which will simply continue and strengthen the lie as the younger ones lap it up as the word of truth from their masters.
I for one think that they have taken to the towers of the black brotherhood, and can only hope that nobody else falls for their glamor.
@draco: Those are some interesting points: I have not as yet read Wassermans book, once I get a copy on loan I might give it a read, but I don't think I'll be buying it myself.
This is all very interesting in itself though, the shenanigans of the Black Brethren always make for an entertaining read.
Motta always did have messianic tendencies, and I seem to recall that Germer had doubts about him from the beginning.
Another thing: Its amazing how many people get to the point of passing from one grade to the next and assume they've passed the "abyss". Its common for those traversing the path of Tau I think, as in my experience that's when the first real changes in consciousness occur. I guess that actual change is so unbelievable for some that when it actually happens it seems like an epochal event.Jung mentioned that expansions of ones awareness are also often accompanied by ego-inflation, which I think may be half the trouble, and may explain why so we have getting to Yesod and deciding to take the oath of the Abyss.
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@Patthana Gati said
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Well it won't work. For a start, most of their membership get involved with the Pagan community first and drift to the O.T.O. - so I'll be telling the truth and poisoning the well on the biggest online pagan community until the O.T.O. start being properly non-partisan and start listing links to other A.'.A.'. branches on their homepage. "
That's unlikely when you consider that the heads of the OTO all belong to that particular lineage of AA. Although they deny any connection and actively discourage talk of the AA at OTO meetings I know that many of their membership are interested in the Order and many belong to groups other than the Motta/Gunther gang.
If you check out Outercols website they begin by stating that the Order is one, with one eye in the triangle. The page on the OTO US grand lodge sticks to a similar script and simply acts like its common knowledge that there is one OTO and one AA, in this way the propagate the lie and those who are new to Thelema take it as read and are quite surprised when they find out that there are other claimant groups.
This is actually quite a clever bit of psychology when you think about it, if people come in fresh minded and are told that the AA is one thing; and this idea settles in their minds so that they don't think to question it. This way what happens is when they hear that there are many AA groups the new info doesn't match up with what they already "know" they reject it.
Once they join and have some emotional attachment to the lineage it doesn't take much to convince them of what they already want to believe, and so the lie becomes truth because everyone believes it.
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In fact thinking about it like that it's starting to look like the whole "we are the only AA" thing is yet another relic of the argument by faith/believer script thing that's been floating around here for the last few days.
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Um
your cut and paste makes it look like you wrote what was in my post
When I first came across Crowley in my teens I was more interested in the AA than anything else, I didn't even pay Liber Al that much attention for a long time, but that's another story. Anyway, at that time if you wanted to contact the AA you contacted outercol as that was the only one extant, those being the days before internet.
Anyway, I tried for years to get a response, never did, and now I'm glad I didn't or I'd probably have ended up believing the same script as the rest of them.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Yeah I know, the best thing to do is to just get on with the work and let people rant and shout all they want, unfortunately some of us in the Outer College still get hacked off when those who should know better start rocking the boat for petty ego benefits.
As an OTO member I should in theory look up to guys like this, but this kind of thing makes me wonder what kind of vipers nest I'm in. I too have had Motta lineage people distance themselves from me over the subject.
I'll be honest, posting my thoughts in this thread is a way of letting off steam, and I feel that this is a necessary thing to do sometimes because bottling it all up for the sake of being silent tends to make it into a bigger bogey than it is.
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Speaking on the issue - and not pointing it, in the present thread, at any individuals per se - I think today I would just repeat word for word what I wrote in my editorial in Black Pearl No. 8, under the title, "Purple Beyond Purple."
Feel free to look it up. (Or not, of course.)
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@draco210 said
"I guess my posts may sound like ranting, but Silence is the enemy of Truth."
(Without labelling your posts, but commenting on the principle...)
Yes, and ranting is also the enemy of Truth.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Speaking on the issue - and not pointing it, in the present thread, at any individuals per se - I think today I would just repeat word for word what I wrote in my editorial in Black Pearl No. 8, under the title, "Purple Beyond Purple."
Feel free to look it up. (Or not, of course.)"
Thanks Jim, that's really helpful. As I said, as I am also a member of OTO (although for how much longer I don't know) this kind of thing grates on me, and may eventually bring me to leave that Order to pursue my work in peace. For myself I have no qualms with anybody claiming to represent the AA, that kind of thing is between themselves and their Holy Guardian Angel. What gets me angry is the way people who should be seen as Brethren come up with the kind of rubbish that we see pop up from time to time.
It really does look as if they are trying hard to hide their nakedness by accusing others of the fault. -