I'm here to learn.
-
@Ash said
" In fact, it might even be better to attend one without knowing what the symbolism means so that you won't get too hung up on the intellectual side of things.
Do you have any specific questions though?
"I'm rather analytical by nature, so such a suggestion strikes me as counter-intuitive (from my personal perspective), but I'm absolutely willing to give it a shot. I'm certainly looking for opportunities to meet people within the Thelema community.
I can appreciate the strength of symbolism without full intellectual understanding, but wouldn't a symbol be more potent when contemplated with at least some degree of personal meaning?
Specific questions... most absolutely. Like for example, is there any particular chronological order in which I ought to approach Thelemic literature? More particularly, literature I can consume before approaching The Book of the Law?
Perhaps my statement that I'm "looking for someone to hold my hand" is poorly worded... it's the individualistically interpretive nature of Thelema that appeals so deeply to me. I feel I've a capacity for this "school of thought" if you will, but I would very much like to engage in some "live" conversations and get pointed in a direction or two.
All of the responses are GREATLY appreciated. Please keep 'em coming.
-
@Ash said
". Just dive headfirst into it and try to figure it out for yourself. ."
ha! both a warning and a welcome to Thelema
-
Another specific question: what exactly marks the Aeon of Horus? Am I to take Crowleys word for it that the rules have changed? Does this "change" imply that in the previous Aeon man was NOT responsible for himself... if not, then to whom was man responsible?
How does this effect my relationship with my parole officer? Seriously. How shall I reconcile the fact that I have the right to consume as I please (to the point of being permitted to destroy those who would thwart my will) and the reality of living in a society that seeks to put limits on my personal pleasure?
I'd like to once again put out that I would like to have a live conversation with somebody, ideally several somebodies... after 5pm central in some sort of a AIM, Skype, or other live chat format.
-
@CrazyRockwellXCIII said
"Another specific question: what exactly marks the Aeon of Horus? Am I to take Crowleys word for it that the rules have changed? Does this "change" imply that in the previous Aeon man was NOT responsible for himself... if not, then to whom was man responsible?
How does this effect my relationship with my parole officer? Seriously. How shall I reconcile the fact that I have the right to consume as I please (to the point of being permitted to destroy those who would thwart my will) and the reality of living in a society that seeks to put limits on my personal pleasure?
I'd like to once again put out that I would like to have a live conversation with somebody, ideally several somebodies... after 5pm central in some sort of a AIM, Skype, or other live chat format."
I'm only going to address a portion of the above. If you are imprisoned (on parole), this suggests you violated the Law of Will to get yourself to that point and you will have to endure its consequences until you learn better.
-
Go to <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.thelema.org/publications">www.thelema.org/publications</a><!-- w --> where (among other things) are some free publications to download. Get the collection called The Ethics of Thelema. Read especially the essay called "Duty." This will help put a lot of your questions in perspective.
We are both irreplicable individuals whose right and and duty (they're the same thing) is to fulfill our distinctiveness - what we call the Hadit perspective, or the quality of Will - and, simultaneously, we are inseparable from each other, each individual expression of life being part of a continuous fabric of life - what we call the Nuit perspective, or the quality of Love. (There is no actual difference between these two persepctives, though it may take a long time for someone to understand that experientially.)
Among the many, many implications of all of this is that you, as an individual, are also inseparable from the society, species, planet, etc. of which you are part. Any apparency of separation is incorrect perception.
Read the essay, meditate on it... you can go very far with that one short document.
-
@Takamba said
"I'm only going to address a portion of the above. If you are imprisoned (on parole), this suggests you violated the Law of Will to get yourself to that point and you will have to endure its consequences until you learn better."
Lol, oh did I?
Could you elaborate for me then, exactly what is the "Law of Will"? I've made it clear that I'm not well versed in Thelemic philosophy but I am, and I don't think mistakenly, under the impression that "Do what thou wilt" is the entirety of the law.
It seems to me that being put on "supervised supervision" (diet probation, probation "lite" if you will) for the offense of possessing a bag of stems is hardly a situation I should learn from. I've certainly not imposed my will over another individual's... if anything my human rights are being violated by the will of those who would claim to know what's best for me.
It's a given that I will have to "endure the consequences" of my position, but it certainly doesn't feel like justice.
Do these more specific details pertaining to the nature of my situation change your assessment, or would you still say that I've "violated the Law of Will" and need to "learn better"?Jim, MUCH GRATITUDE for the relevant link and technical insight. This is definitely the kind of information I'm seeking.
-
@CrazyRockwellXCIII said
"
@Takamba said
"I'm only going to address a portion of the above. If you are imprisoned (on parole), this suggests you violated the Law of Will to get yourself to that point and you will have to endure its consequences until you learn better."Lol, oh did I?
Could you elaborate for me then, exactly what is the "Law of Will"? I've made it clear that I'm not well versed in Thelemic philosophy but I am, and I don't think mistakenly, under the impression that "Do what thou wilt" is the entirety of the law.
It seems to me that being put on "supervised supervision" (diet probation, probation "lite" if you will) for the offense of possessing a bag of stems is hardly a situation I should learn from. I've certainly not imposed my will over another individual's... if anything my human rights are being violated by the will of those who would claim to know what's best for me.
It's a given that I will have to "endure the consequences" of my position, but it certainly doesn't feel like justice.
Do these more specific details pertaining to the nature of my situation change your assessment, or would you still say that I've "violated the Law of Will" and need to "learn better"?Jim, MUCH GRATITUDE for the relevant link and technical insight. This is definitely the kind of information I'm seeking."
First off, allow me to introduce myself: I'm prone to disbelief. Stems? When did possession of stems become a felony? It has to be a felony for it to be parole (early supervised release from a state or federal penitentiary). The state isn't likely to waste money on paroling someone who has less than a five year total sentence, so chances are you committed a severe violation of the law of the land of your chosen birth. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but parole is a harsh penalty for stems. I suspect there's plenty you aren't telling me.
Did you will yourself to prison? In a way, you did (and of course, in a way, you didn't). In any case, by whatever means, you did not do what is called "True Will" unless going to prison is what you want to call your True Will. Who knows?
-
I could communicate with you via AIM, but only through text (as I mentioned earlier, I do not have a sound/video capturing device).
-
@Takamba said
" I suspect there's plenty you aren't telling me."
Well my friend, of course there's plenty I'm not telling you... although I wouldn't so much say "not telling you" as "publicly proclaiming on a message board."
Then again, if you're interested, and because it seems to have become relevant in a philosophical context, I'm willing to share this in the interest of disclosure for the sake of receiving insight.@Takamba said
"Stems? When did possession of stems become a felony? It has to be a felony for it to be parole (early supervised release from a state or federal penitentiary). "
It becomes a felony when you have... I want to say it was 30 grams? I am NOT, however, on parole, and I was NOT convicted of a felony. There is no incarceration involved in my situation. I received "supervised supervision" (a gentler form of probation), and am not on "parole". The stems were an unpurchased gift, and would probably have made a fine tea for guests visiting my home. I'm a gracious and generous host.
I was sober when I was pulled over for a minor traffic infraction by an officer who dislikes me... BECAUSE about 6 years prior he illegally detained me, illegally searched me, came up with a gram, and was embarrassed when the judge threw out the case for violating my 5th Amendment rights and chastised him in front of his peers.
Beyond these incidents, my record is 100% spotless.@Takamba said
"Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but [(*edited) probation] is a harsh penalty for stems."
No forgiveness necessary. Not only was it harsh, but it seems to me it was a clear violation of my human rights.
@Takamba said
"The state isn't likely to waste money on paroling someone who has less than a five year total sentence, so chances are you committed a severe violation of the law of the land of your chosen birth."
Once again, and I want to hammer this home, I did not receive a jail sentence, nor am I on parole.
Lol, well... we're getting a bit metaphysical here, but let me say that we can't all choose to be born in Amsterdam... and even if we could I doubt I'd "choose" the location of my birth based upon something as trite as reasonable, humane, drug laws.
Furthermore, I contend that although I'm willing to entertain the idea that I "chose" to be born here, I would argue that doesn't necessarily imply that I agree with every piece of BS legislation imposed upon the people here. Being born in Jim Crow's America, for example, would not imply complicity and subservience to racial segregation. Perhaps I "chose" to be born here specifically because improvements could be made.@Takamba said
"Did you will yourself to prison? In a way, you did (and of course, in a way, you didn't).
In any case, by whatever means, you did not do what is called "True Will" unless going to prison is what you want to call your True Will. Who knows?"No offense, but that sounds like a lot of double-talk to me.
Suppose you replaced "going to prison" with "getting raped." Would you tell a violated person that, due to the outcome, they did not do their "True Will"? I'm not being facetious, this is a serious question.As far as "who knows", if anyone I would think it would be me. Unless I'm misunderstanding some basic concepts here (which is totally possible), I'm pretty sure I have a pretty good idea as to what my True Will is, what exactly I'm meant to manifest.
Just to be clear, I don't want to come across as being contentious here. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to discuss Thelemic ideas and philosophy. Thank you for the response, and nice to meet you!
*edit
This is all a very small part of my life. I originally brought this up as a joke, the idea of explaining to my PO that I have an inalienable human right to "eat/drink as I will." I'm not having any problems dealing with this minor legal issue, and it will all be over come November... so unless there are some points brought up here that are particularly relevant to Thelema, I'd like to move the conversation away from this trifling matter.
-
@Uni_Verse said
"I could communicate with you via AIM, but only through text (as I mentioned earlier, I do not have a sound/video capturing device)."
Uni, that would be absolutely perfect. I'll return your PM so that we can work out a time and exchange screen-names.
THANK YOU!
-
@CrazyRockwellXCIII said
"I am NOT, however, on parole, and I was NOT convicted of a felony."
CR, I just want to point out that you were the person who first used "parole," leading to the understandable misunderstanding that followed.
"we're getting a bit metaphysical here"
Well, that IS what this forum is all about
"but let me say that we can't all choose to be born in Amsterdam... and even if we could I doubt I'd "choose" the location of my birth based upon something as trite as reasonable, humane, drug laws. Furthermore, I contend that although I'm willing to entertain the idea that I "chose" to be born here, I would argue that doesn't necessarily imply that I agree with every piece of BS legislation imposed upon the people here."
No, but it does indicate a choice for some set of phenomena that would naturally arise out of the context. This could be (for example): quiet compliance with the law; noisy compliance with the law; a covert, secretive lifestyle hiding from the law; setting yourself up for confrontations with the law; taking on the law to challenge it; or moving to another location where there is a more desirable set of conditions. (And, of course, many more.)
"Being born in Jim Crow's America, for example, would not imply complicity and subservience to racial segregation."
It MIGHT imply either of those. It may also imply a need to punish oneself, the need for a lesson in humility, a setup for political activism, a need to be where other suffering and suppressed people need support, a motivation to leave the area, a positioning of oneself to be a witness to that phase of history, or countless other things. In any case, it isn't inconsequential and isn't without choice.
-
CrazyRockwellXCIII, this is not "a trifling matter" (as you so warmly describe it). And yes, as Jim pointed out - you are the one who introduced the concept of Parole into this conversation. Now you are describing probation - and on top of that, something even less intrusive than probation. Really? Like a visiting social worker? Oh please - don't whine to me about trifles.
Your interpretation of the Law of Thelema, so far as I am able to understand you, is that you believe you should be free from the Wheel of Karma (ie - not suffer punishment as punishment violates your right to liberty - so you say).
So as I understand your circumstances, it goes something like this: you received a gift from someone that happens to be illegal to posses. Was this gift given to you against your will? Did you carry this gift from place to place against your will?
No it's not double talk. You are not a victim, you are a perpetrator who got caught. So that kind of comparison is rather offensive to victims of actual physical assaults. You committed, willingly, a misdemeanor crime and got caught. So now you have a type of "yoga" you are required to live by. For all you and I know, this is going to help you discover your True Will (not to be confused with your desire to smoke a bowl or go to the bar).
-
"For all you and I know, this is going to help you discover your True Will (not to be confused with your desire to smoke a bowl or go to the bar)."
Peanut Gallery: That last bit from Takamba is the good stuff. I'd suggest you consider it. Don't just get lost in the spirit of the battle.
-
With a caveat that I'm not putting words in Takamba's mouth but, rather, springboarding off his post to speak for myself...
"You broke the law, you got caught, there are consequences" probably sounds like a defense of the law. (At least, it probably sounds that way to somebody who eventually will read this <g>.) It isn't. It's just stating facts, circumstances in which you exist.
Given the fact that it is raining on a particular day, should you choose to go out in the rain without an umbrella or hat, and walk several blocks, you will get your head wet.
This is, philosophically, exactly the same as:
Given the fact that you live where the possession of ABC is illegal, carrying ABC on your person will result in your getting arrested.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"CR, I just want to point out that you were the person who first used "parole," leading to the understandable misunderstanding that followed."
Why... your absolutely right. I misspoke. Misunderstandings completely understood now.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Well, that IS what this forum is all about
"Lol, sorry, I think I'm funny.
@Jim Eshelman said
"No, but it does indicate a choice for some set of phenomena that would naturally arise out of the context. This could be (for example): quiet compliance with the law; noisy compliance with the law; a covert, secretive lifestyle hiding from the law; setting yourself up for confrontations with the law; taking on the law to challenge it; or moving to another location where there is a more desirable set of conditions. (And, of course, many more.)
It may also imply a need to punish oneself, the need for a lesson in humility, a setup for political activism, a need to be where other suffering and suppressed people need support, a motivation to leave the area, a positioning of oneself to be a witness to that phase of history, or countless other things. In any case, it isn't inconsequential and isn't without choice."
So... either getting busted in this way is a fumble on my behalf, a failure to follow my true will... or it was some sort of horrible booby-trap that I set up for myself whilst floating in the void between life and death in order to teach myself a lesson in... using my turn signal? Or am I looking at this on too small a scale?
Please don't take my tone as one of mockery. I'm taking these concepts seriously... it's just that life is hilarious to me.
I'm familiar with a concept of "limited free-will", the idea of being cast into life with a certain amount of forward momentum and inertia... uni-directional travel through the fourth dimension. Being born male, in Somalia, in poverty (not me, hypothetical). Circumstances of birth can be limiting, but within the three dimensional inner-tube of possible reality (is this making sense?), there's a certain amount of steering involved... choices made that both limit some possibilities and make some new ones available. At least, that's how I've been imagining it.
However, when you speak of choosing the circumstances of one's birth, it seems to imply that the choices I make here and now were in some way... predetermined? Plotted out in advance by some other Crazy Rockwell I do not remember?
And what of those who would impose their will upon me? I certainly don't mean to shirk responsibility for my own life, but why would Liber Oz bother addressing the matter (quite gravely, at that) if the bad things in my life are either (A.) my fault for not following my true will, (B.) some sort of sabotage I set up for myself as a punishment, something to learn from, something to grow from.
This seems to imply that, literally, everything that happens is justified and "right", for lack of a better word.
Are there no circumstances of injustice?This concept, whether or not I'm fully understanding it, raises some interesting questions about free will.
-
@Takamba said
"CrazyRockwellXCIII, this is not "a trifling matter" (as you so warmly describe it). And yes, as Jim pointed out - you are the one who introduced the concept of Parole into this conversation. Now you are describing probation - and on top of that, something even less intrusive than probation. Really? Like a visiting social worker? Oh please - don't whine to me about trifles.
"...who's whining? See my last post, I'm openly acknowledging that I misspoke. I had meant "probation officer." I have to visit him once a month.
@Takamba said
"
Your interpretation of the Law of Thelema, so far as I am able to understand you, is that you believe you should be free from the Wheel of Karma (ie - not suffer punishment as punishment violates your right to liberty - so you say).
"Oh no, certainly not! I apologize if I gave you that impression. My understanding, and I thought it was pretty clearly spelled out in what I read, is that I have the right to "eat, drink, etc as I will."
Now, quite obviously, I committed a crime. My crime, however, was not against a person. In Constitutional terms, I believe in the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and in that order. In the pursuit of my happiness, I did not impede anybody's rights to life, liberty, or happiness, and therefore, think punishment in this particular circumstance is unjustified.@Takamba said
"
So as I understand your circumstances, it goes something like this: you received a gift from someone that happens to be illegal to posses. Was this gift given to you against your will? Did you carry this gift from place to place against your will?
"It was 100% my choice to receive, possess, and carry this gift. I'm failing to see the problem with that... or why these decisions make my arrest justifiable in the cosmic scale of things. Do you mean to say that if something is illegal, it's illegal, and if the standard punishment is over the top I'm still deserving of it because I was aware of the potential consequences?
@Takamba said
"
No it's not double talk.
"@Takamba said
"
Did you will yourself to prison? In a way, you did (and of course, in a way, you didn't).
"I said it sounds like double talk. A deeper understanding of your philosophical points may change that perspective for me, but as we all know, I'm new to this. Please don't be offended.
@Takamba said
"
You are not a victim, you are a perpetrator who got caught. So that kind of comparison is rather offensive to victims of actual physical assaults. You committed, willingly, a misdemeanor crime and got caught. So now you have a type of "yoga" you are required to live by. For all you and I know, this is going to help you discover your True Will (not to be confused with your desire to smoke a bowl or go to the bar)."I certainly didn't mean to offend... I'm simply trying to make a comparison. This is an exercise in logic and philosophy for me, not an excuse to justify myself to strangers. I'm sorry if you dislike my example, but it seems to me like an accessible and easily understood comparison... but I'm DEFINITELY NOT trying to say that getting busted for weed is like getting sexually assaulted, in terms of severity.
Am I to understand, though, that the fact that possession of weed is a misdemeanor crime trumps my human right to "eat/drink/etc as I will"?
Let me also be clear that I don't confuse my desire to enjoy the things I find pleasurable with my True Will.
Thank you for engaging in this dialogue with me. I'd like to continue to hear your thoughts on the matter.
-
....pointless, invisible post deleted....
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"With a caveat that I'm not putting words in Takamba's mouth but, rather, springboarding off his post to speak for myself...
"You broke the law, you got caught, there are consequences" probably sounds like a defense of the law. (At least, it probably sounds that way to somebody who eventually will read this <g>.) It isn't. It's just stating facts, circumstances in which you exist.
Given the fact that it is raining on a particular day, should you choose to go out in the rain without an umbrella or hat, and walk several blocks, you will get your head wet.
This is, philosophically, exactly the same as:
Given the fact that you live where the possession of ABC is illegal, carrying ABC on your person will result in your getting arrested."
CRYSTAL CLEAR... and completely understood. If I sounded like I was debating something like that, I apologize.
However Takamba, and I don't want to put words into his mouth, seems to be implying that I should feel that my punishment was just. Is it not possible that I can fully acknowledge the undeniable fact that my actions led to the consequences and yet feel that consequence is not justifiable, and a violation of my human rights?
-
@CrazyRockwellXCIII said
"
@Takamba said
"
Your interpretation of the Law of Thelema, so far as I am able to understand you, is that you believe you should be free from the Wheel of Karma (ie - not suffer punishment as punishment violates your right to liberty - so you say).
"Oh no, certainly not! I apologize if I gave you that impression. My understanding, and I thought it was pretty clearly spelled out in what I read, is that I have the right to "eat, drink, etc as I will."
Now, quite obviously, I committed a crime. My crime, however, was not against a person. In Constitutional terms, I believe in the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and in that order. In the pursuit of my happiness, I did not impede anybody's rights to life, liberty, or happiness, and therefore, think punishment in this particular circumstance is unjustified.@Takamba said
"
So as I understand your circumstances, it goes something like this: you received a gift from someone that happens to be illegal to posses. Was this gift given to you against your will? Did you carry this gift from place to place against your will?
"It was 100% my choice to receive, possess, and carry this gift. I'm failing to see the problem with that... or why these decisions make my arrest justifiable in the cosmic scale of things. Do you mean to say that if something is illegal, it's illegal, and if the standard punishment is over the top I'm still deserving of it because I was aware of the potential consequences?
I certainly didn't mean to offend... I'm simply trying to make a comparison. This is an exercise in logic and philosophy for me, not an excuse to justify myself to strangers. I'm sorry if you dislike my example, but it seems to me like an accessible and easily understood comparison... but I'm DEFINITELY NOT trying to say that getting busted for weed is like getting sexually assaulted, in terms of severity.Am I to understand, though, that the fact that possession of weed is a misdemeanor crime trumps my human right to "eat/drink/etc as I will"?"
A couple of things to say: When it comes to Liber OZ, specifically that very popular phrase that it is "man's right" to "kill those who would thwart these rights" I pondered deeply and reached the conclusion that only ideas, laws, and the gods have any power equivalent to being able to "thwart these rights." Individuals do not have such power, and so are exempt from this alleged death penalty. Only by agreement did you get cited with criminal behavior (you could have flown, lived on the lam, fought it out tooth and nail, but you didn't). You are agreeing to a certain level of conformity with your neighbors.
Personally I'm 100 percent with you that Man has the right to hunt, mold, dress, dance, and eat and drink as He wills to do, but Liber Oz is for Man as a total and not just any one man in particular - so it's a kind of dance when we think in terms of personal liberties and laws (of course, when Crowley wrote Liber Oz, I think it was still legal to purchase opium products and marijuana - and alcohol in the United States had been legalized again for over 7 years by this time). Being that it is your will and your right is no guarantee of ease nor abundance. (By the way, the right to pursue happiness and everything else you quoted is not Constitutional, it is from the Declaration of Independence.) You gotta fight for your right..... to par----take.
So... like I've mentioned before, these inconveniences on your will that currently exist may in fact (actually, I'm quite sure they do) point in the direction of your True Will. Maybe you're a protester type, a warrior of a different kind, or maybe you're to eventually become clean and sober and see something that was brilliantly concealed from you until then. Personally, I can't answer that for you, but being as "this is the law of the strong," it likely doesn't come without a fight.
-
@CrazyRockwellXCIII said
"
However Takamba, and I don't want to put words into his mouth, seems to be implying that I should feel that my punishment was just. Is it not possible that I can fully acknowledge the undeniable fact that my actions led to the consequences and yet feel that consequence is not justifiable, and a violation of my human rights?"If I can successfully teach one thing to any one person on this earth, and it sticks, and results follow, then I will say I have done my Will. Rather than resent the past mistakes that led to where we are now, why don't we decide to act in directions more suitable to our intent?
You haven't told me how long your supervised (probation) status is to be. One or more years? Since the crime was already on the books before you committed it, you willed a crime to be committed. Yes? Sentencing is a complicated procedure (I have had Judges share beer with me, so I know from them that it is as I believe it is.) You seem to be fixated on fairness regarding your sentence (as well as the rightness or wrongness of the actual law itself in this case). Considering that you have explained that it was a misdemeanor, you may very well have faced a maximum penalty of one full year in jail and a severe fine (probably $1000). Supervised release seems pretty fair (although I personally would prefer $100 fine - but that only happened on my first possession case).
To sum up my stance: Do I think it was fair (your sentence)? I suspect it was. Do I agree that the law should be on the books? No. Are you here to learn, or to win your case? I hope you find something you can learn.