I'm here to learn.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Or, to take that a different way: One of the most common errors that people make is that they think of "themselves" as something different from "everybody else." Think of Hadit as a single point within infinite space: That point isn't separate from infinite space, it's simply one distinguished location (or point of view) within the space. Similarly, none of us (no point) is separate from all of us (infinite space). Our True Will is a particularized expression, through a distinguished point, of a pattern that is infinitely larger than the most sublime idea of ourselves (let alone the idea of what we usually think of as ourselves).
"Many years ago... approximately a decade ago actually, I had an experience that I believe Buddhists call a "satori" experience during a meditative state.
It felt as if the equation that makes up reality was being simplified... not unlike an algebra problem being simplified to it's lowest common denominator (forgive me if that makes no sense, math is not my strong suite). Once it had reached this "simplest term", it was represented by a sound, an image, and a sensation. It was accompanied with a single unit of knowledge that seemed to explain, quite literally, everything, with a solution so simple and obvious that it seemed impossible to miss... stupid to miss even, and impossible to forget.
There was a sensation of being both incredibly, infinitely expansive and large, yet infinitesimally tiny.
The moment was perhaps the briefest and longest of my life, but the moment it was over, the everything began to rapidly unfold once again as I desperately grabbed for the slipping and expanding pieces.Despite this experience, over the years I've found myself becoming increasingly individualistic... or to use a term I'm just beginning to understand, far more "Hadit" than "Nuit."
Is this something that should concern me? What steps should I take to even this balance? -
Ego expansion is, I think, a common side effect of spiritual experiences.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Ego expansion is, I think, a common side effect of spiritual experiences."
Funny that you say that, because had I not experienced it directly I would have suspected ego-death. It's my understanding that ego-death is, in fact, precisely what Buddhists seek in severing themselves from the Samsara cycle of re-birth.
Would Thelemites argue that re-birth is desirable? Or at least preferable to the alternative?
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@CrazyRockwellXCIII said
"Would Thelemites argue that re-birth is desirable? Or at least preferable to the alternative?"
I would argue that being born, anytime,
implies that some sort of reproduction has taken place,
hopefully between the sheets,
and that pleasure and love is always a good thing.If the single sum of my existence is reduced to the fact that my mom and dad had a moment of love and rapture then I lived a great life.
But then again, I might be able to argue against that....
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@CrazyRockwellXCIII said
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Funny that you say that, because had I not experienced it directly I would have suspected ego-death. It's my understanding that ego-death is, in fact, precisely what Buddhists seek in severing themselves from the Samsara cycle of re-birth.Would Thelemites argue that re-birth is desirable? Or at least preferable to the alternative?"
Yes, I think many spiritual paths (like Buddhism and Thelema) are aimed at progressively outgrowing the illusion of a "discreet individual identity". But it's not until very far in the Thelemic path that one shifts from being "a human having spiritual experiences" to being "a spiritual being having human experiences" or something similar, from what I remember reading somewhere (Jim's A:.A:. book, maybe?)
At the same time, the ego construct seems to be still used in everyday life. Just like other parts of our personality that we outgrow, we don't lop them off, they just become a less central part of our identity.
Just my opinion.
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@CrazyRockwellXCIII said
"Would Thelemites argue that re-birth is desirable? Or at least preferable to the alternative?"
The way you structured your question pleads for an "official" answer, so I'll start with the closest thing to an official doctrinal answer. The following passage from The Thelemic Mass is nearly identical to the corresponding collect in Crowley's mass, and addresses post mortem existence:
"Unto them from whose eyes the veil of physical life hath fallen, may there be granted the accomplishment of their true Wills; whether they will absorption in the Infinite, or to be united with their chosen and preferred, or to be in contemplation, or to be at peace, or to achieve the labor and heroism of incarnation on this planet or another, or in any Star, or aught else, unto them may there be granted the accomplish-ment of their wills; yea, the accomplishment of their wills."
So the answer is... there are options. And, doctrinally, Thelema doesn't presume to dictate what is "preferable" for one being or another. The phrase "or aught else" is the most telling.
The consistent theme, though, is that existence continues as an unending journey. Also, it isn't necessary to extinguish distinction in the ancient sense (implying "once and for all"). First of all, within infinite space, each of the infinite nondimensional poionts - each point of view - continues to exist, whether bearing characteristics or not. Secondly, an ultimate extinguishing union with Nuit isn't necessary when one is living one's life in frequent (theoretically continuous) intimate union with Nuit (by uniting oneself fully with each experience). Thirdly, much that passes for extinction is actually the shedding of characteristics and phenomena ("clothing"), rather than cessation.
From a more personal angle, I'd say that, yes, existence is continual (and vaster than generally experienced from the angle of one lifetime or one chain of lifetimes constituting "a particular being") - and that reincarnation is simply a fact of existence.
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This is quite an interesting thread.
So, to sum up, whatever happens to one is factual "True Will", regardless of ANY circumstances.
Is this an accurate assessment?
Thanks!
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@moonchilde said
"So, to sum up, whatever happens to one is factual "True Will", regardless of ANY circumstances.
Is this an accurate assessment?"
No, I wouldn't say it is at all.
Although... just maybe... you mean something different from your words than I see in them.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@moonchilde said
"So, to sum up, whatever happens to one is factual "True Will", regardless of ANY circumstances.Is this an accurate assessment?"
No, I wouldn't say it is at all.
Although... just maybe... you mean something different from your words than I see in them."
Here is a survey of some quote on the board.
I am not asking you to take responsibility for anyone's comments, but to express your understanding of how Thelema supports the viewpoint.
So we start with a clean strawman to work with, I would suggest that getting caught for drug posession has equal Choice and Will content as getting hit by a car walking across the street or perhaps getting a cold.
If anyone believes this is not the case, please explain.
Given that, some quotes:
*If you are imprisoned (on parole), this suggests you violated the Law of Will to get yourself to that point and you will have to endure its consequences until you learn better.
*
Among the many, many implications of all of this is that you, as an individual, are also inseparable from the societyDid you will yourself to prison? In a way, you did (and of course, in a way, you didn't). In any case, by whatever means, you did not do what is called "True Will" unless going to prison is what you want to call your True Will.
"
"Being born in Jim Crow's America, for example, would not imply complicity and subservience to racial segregation."It MIGHT imply either of those. It may also imply a need to punish oneself, the need for a lesson in humility, a setup for political activism, a need to be where other suffering and suppressed people need support, a motivation to leave the area, a positioning of oneself to be a witness to that phase of history, or countless other things. In any case, it isn't inconsequential and isn't without choice."
You are not a victim, you are a perpetrator who got caught.
"You broke the law, you got caught, there are consequences" probably sounds like a defense of the law. (At least, it probably sounds that way to somebody who eventually will read this <g>.) It isn't. It's just stating facts, circumstances in which you exist.
*So... like I've mentioned before, these inconveniences on your will that currently exist may in fact (actually, I'm quite sure they do) point in the direction of your True Will. *
The thing for YOU to get in all of this is that you have voluntarily entered into a system which has these circumstances.
Perhaps you could see where I might infer that?
Please clear up my confusion, thanks.
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Moonchilde, since a great number of statements above are my own, let me explain them from what I understand (and I do believe that Jim and I agree on these several points).
The facts are not your True Will. Going to prison is not your True Will (more than likely, that is - but who am I to know, maybe for someone it actually is) but that the circumstances surrounding the situation (the "facts" as you put them) are sign posts indicating the nature or natures involved with your True Will. As Jim's quotes point out (if you read them carefully), the "facts" can lead to any direction toward or away from them - whichever way is actually "True Will" is the one that will in the end make the most of the "facts." In his example of being born in a Jim Crow society, that fact could indicate anything. It could indicate a need to suffer, it could indicate a will to abolish systems that stand, it could also indicate a will toward dominance. The facts or circumstances alone do not dictate this.
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That makes a great deal of sense.
In whatever environment you find yourself, your True Will is obviously to take the best advantage of that situation to guide yourself.
However, I think that there is no need to pretend that the game that we are playing as humanity currently aligns with True Will.
There also appeared to be another level of meaning in the quotes that drove towards the "choice" of those scenarios, or settings, one might say.
In addition, there appeard to be a philosophical axiom that one has impllicitly agreed with all tue rules here, and a possible conclusion that therefore any consequences are ones own.
As I said, I see no difference between being thrown in jail for posession of pot to catching a cold.
Each had a risk behaviour associated with it that was statistically triggered. But, everything has some sort of risk profile. Ask the actuaries.
The tragedy to me appears to be that the former is accepted with the same status and level of Authority as the latter, when in fact we can actually do more about it.
Namaste.