Evolution of Health
-
Very interesting post, Veronica. If I may "dumb down" the "when is someone ready for occult studies" a bit, I refer you to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. When one has met the basic survival needs, one is then capable of shifting mental focus to the next stage: Safety - that is, building the security of knowing these needs can always be met. Then the next level of focus is available, Love and Belonging - followed by Esteem and finally Self-Actualization. The study and use of magick falls somewhere in those last two segments of the hierarchy which is why, for example, the Abramelin working is built around first the ability to secure the proper house and a life without distraction. In fact, the beginning of that book speaks to me very much of what the model of good health is.
It has been written (by Kraig for example) that "High Magick" is so-called because the sages of old lived in high places; in towers or castles or well established homes on hills. This speaks of practical success in life (either as land owner or employee of the land owner) and having first secured the bottom portions of Maslow's pyramid. Because of their lives of security and basic self-esteem, the ability to succeed with magick was made more likely for them.
-
@Mens Oculus said
"
@Veronica said
"Do drugs, smoke cigarrettes, drink alcohol, be anti social, kill animals, rape, sodomize in excess and do what ever they want at the moment. "Did Aleister Crowley not consistently do heroin? Do Sadhu's not smoke pot and renounce from all societal function? Are mushrooms and marijuana not mentioned time and time again within texts and writings of ancient times? What was soma? Who was Seshat? I see what you are saying with healthy living and all, but we are all on drugs, all the time, our brain is a drug producing monolith and some of these substances have been shown to be more beneficial than harmful. While we are consuming food that is killing us and drinking water that dehumanizes us, we are immediately at a disadvantage when it comes to the chemical make-up of our brain and should not feel obligated to not partake in natural ways of altering brain chemistry (like magick and mysticism) just because our westernized inculturation tells us that drugs are harmful. It is like a gun, or science for that matter, you can't blame them for the problems that are caused by their irresponsible use."
Your response is taking a snippet of her post way out of context, even out of the context of the surrounding paragraph.
-
It not out of context, she put drugs in the list of things that are being detrimental to the progression of our species. I am merely saying that is unfair and that within the context of spirituality throughout the ages, drugs have been a large part, as well as fasting, and being anti-social. That Aleister Crowley, the man who originated this doctrine was himself a complete indulger. That when she asks who these masters were, a lot of them were partaking in some of these acts that she deems not suitable for a healthy consciousness. I brought out a small snippet because I agreed with most of what she was getting across but found that a large part of what she was saying I found untrue. She was drawing such a fine line between what you can and can not do in order to be healthy enough to engage in occult learning and it was weighted on some things that have no validity or are relying on an opinionated impression of a something. I thought I would take out a few bricks and shake the foundation a bit. Moderation is the key, not the clumping into right and wrong.
-
@Mens Oculus said
"It not out of context, she put drugs in the list of things that are being detrimental to the progression of our species. "
Read the quote again, please:
"I do believe DWTW, I do. I also believe that most human Beings upon hearing that think it is free reign to engage in wonton hedonist self indulgence, to
Do drugs, smoke cigarrettes, drink alcohol, be anti social, kill animals, rape, sodomize **in excess ** and do what ever they want at the moment. "(emphasis mine)
Obviously her point is that "Do what thou wilt" is not free license to engage in any activity to excess. I see no unfair vilification of drug use, per se.
-
Avshalom, to play devil's advocate, I suspect that Mens Oculus is probably showing concern for this paragraph:
@Veronic wrote: said
"Why on earth would an angel desire to have Conversations with a soul that is polluted with drugs, and rotting flesh, and toxic vibrations brought about by unclear thinking.? They wouldn't,. They would stay as far away from most modern humans as possible. Our ancestors it seems had miracles and Beings popping up all over, or so the stories say. Maybe it was our choices, our free will that separated us after all."
When I read that paragraph I was taken back slightly. We can nit-pick away so as to water it down into something more palatable by pointing out that she did use the word "polluted" and so if we wish to believe she only meant those cases when it is a pollution and not less dangerous use of drugs - but no, she didn't mean it in that context. She clearly points out that she believes that greater incidences of holy visits in our ancient past could be due to a cleaner bill of health in our past. I disagree with that (plus there are greater numbers of UFOs these days - so who knows? Jim? Are you still sticking to the silence on that tape of yours?? *wink).
-
I see the point. I guess I'm on hair-trigger, because it seems that so many posts have been dragged off topic by someone responding to the vaguest mention of drugs with a pro-drug rant. (Not that I have a problem with drugs per se, just that specific behavior)
Carry on.
-
I appreciate the feedback, and I will try to clarify myself by this little story...
When I was a teen I read the Liber Legis, and I knew from that moment one only two things perfectly clear.
Love is the Law.
I. do. not. have. to do anything. But my Will.
I don't have to do homework
I don't have to eat liver
I don't have to listen to my parents
I don't have to do anything.My heart beats and my lungs breathe against my conscious mind.
I choose everything else. If I was truly an adept I could even control my heart beat and my breathe.
I am not espousing not to do this or that, I am advocating complete conscious consumption.
If you are an addict of something, you have no conscious control, you do it BECAUSE.
I firmly believe at this point that most all of humanity, myself included are not conscious of our consumption as best we can, and that our ancestors used to be conscious, but the cycles of addiction are like chains that are passed generation to generation.
I knew that my statement about angels was pushing it....and I knew I risk offending, and challenging, but I think it is good to risk things and push comfort levels.
I want to encourage people, and one of the things that has been encouraging to me is understanding the myriad of toxins and pollutants and social complications that we are living with. I am not saying that life was easier, but when we are faced with the dilemma of trying and trying, and not seeming to get anywhere spiritually fast, or maintain things like the books say, I think it is apt to remember where we came from, and where we are now, and how we can go about getting back to where we want to be.
-
@Veronica said
"I want to encourage people, and one of the things that has been encouraging to me is understanding the myriad of toxins and pollutants and social complications that we are living with. I am not saying that life was easier, but when we are faced with the dilemma of trying and trying, and not seeming to get anywhere spiritually fast, or maintain things like the books say, I think it is apt to remember where we came from, and where we are now, and how we can go about getting back to where we want to be."
Agreed.
In ancient Egypt, I believe this mechanism was at its peak, and I model my spiritual practice after it.
Within the initiatory systems of the Egyptian priests, there were three tiers or progressing phases:- Lunar/Asar
- Solar/Heru
- Stellar/Djehuti
The Lunar path, first and foremost, dealt with a systematic purging of the body, organ by organ, system by system.
They knew that no to spiritual progress could be built upon anything but a perfect and pure bodily foundation, that enlightenment was a matter of biology.
That has by no means changed.
And truly, I seek a return to the ways of ancient Egypt.
I have desire for no other lifestyle.
-
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Obviously her point is that "Do what thou wilt" is not free license to engage in any activity to excess. I see no unfair vilification of drug use, per se."
And my point is that the one who brought that statement into this light engaged in these things that she demeans. Wasn't he a cat killer in his youth? At this point it is irrelevant though and Takamba, I appreciate your assistance in clarifying.
Yoga as well has acts of purification, and they come even before any physical exercises, showing that before you can even gain full control of physicality you must be of a pure and healthy body. Not even physical progress can be made if you are consistently being weighted down by all of the si that is in your body. -
On a side note, I am not advocating drug use, I am advocating not telling people what they are and are not allowed to do in order to reach attainment. That sects like the Aghori that partake in cannibalism and death rituals are just as capable as some drug free celibate who lives in the monastery. That the left hand path and right hand path are two paths that lead to the same place and that (from my experiences) right-hand pathers are more likely to be dogmatic in their practice because they are not as ready to engage in activities that seem a little weird or "evil".
-
@Mens Oculus said
"
Did Aleister Crowley not consistently do heroin? Do Sadhu's not smoke pot and renounce from all societal function? Are mushrooms and marijuana not mentioned time and time again within texts and writings of ancient times? What was soma? Who was Seshat? I see what you are saying with healthy living and all, but we are all on drugs, all the time, our brain is a drug producing monolith and some of these substances have been shown to be more beneficial than harmful. While we are consuming food that is killing us and drinking water that dehumanizes us, we are immediately at a disadvantage when it comes to the chemical make-up of our brain and should not feel obligated to not partake in natural ways of altering brain chemistry (like magick and mysticism) just because our westernized inculturation tells us that drugs are harmful. It is like a gun, or science for that matter, you can't blame them for the problems that are caused by their irresponsible use."
I appreciate your feedback, and bringing to light the fact that some human beings have successfully been able to use mind altering substances to change consciousness and perform magick. I personally do not feel we are at a disadvantage when it comes to the chemical makeup of our brain, in fact I think our brains chemistry is our greatest advantage.I will share with you, just so that you do not hold fals assumptions of me, that I am a party girl, for want of a better term, I can smoke and drink, and sex, and curse, and dance and eat. What ever I want. I can maybe even out party some of you....
I also know how to work magic, I know how perform rituals, and I know how initiations work.
I have personally discovered from my own uses of substances what they do, and how they work on my being. I also know how e occult practices work on my being.
If I wish to have consistent results, if I want certainty then I have discovered that for me, as well as a host of other people I have been contact with, it is best if my being is in the best resonance and accordance that it can possibly be.
To be as healthy and whole as I can be.
Now that's me, maybe not other people.
I have had workings go terribly wrong, workings that failed, and Workings that worked in ways I was not able to predict.While I believe that mind altering substances have a p,ace, and can be very helpful in some specific situations, I know that they are very dangerous, need high levels of respect, and in many instances can be replaced with techniques that pose little risk to the end user.
I also believe that getting high, can only take you so far, and then the original itch stills needs to be stratched, and the user is forced to up doses, move on to heavier substances, and get farther and farther away from the idea that substances are a tool, and into the realm of living with a crutch.
I respect your opinion and value your input, I am not sharing this whle idea of the evolution of health tobe a little miss smarty pants, pure white lighter or what ever, and I don't mean to come a Ross as a know it all, holier then thou.....I put this out their because I am inundated with people all the time asking for advice, clarity, help, direction and as a trained holistic healthcre practioner, yoga instructor, and natural born mystic I strive to find ways to clarify my ideas, to share with as many as possible my hard earned insights, and to help people fall in love with life itself and be happy, healthy, and in accordance with life it self.
-
@Takamba said
" If I may "dumb down" the "when is someone ready for occult studies" a bit, I refer you to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. When one has met the basic survival needs, one is then capable of shifting mental focus to the next stage: Safety - that is, building the security of knowing these needs can always be met. Then the next level of focus is available, Love and Belonging - followed by Esteem and finally Self-Actualization. The study and use of magick falls somewhere in those last two segments of the hierarchy which is why, for example, the Abramelin working is built around first the ability to secure the proper house and a life without distraction. In fact, the beginning of that book speaks to me very much of what the model of good health is.It has been written (by Kraig for example) that "High Magick" is so-called because the sages of old lived in high places; in towers or castles or well established homes .. and having first secured the bottom portions of Maslow's pyramid. Because of their lives of security and basic self-esteem, the ability to succeed with magick was made more likely for them."
Takamba as always you do a most excellent job holding up a mirror so that I can see my imperfections. Dumb Down, eh gads, what a judgmental bitchy statement! Sorry, I will work at that.
Your statement about securing things in a progression is exactly what I was trying to communicate about health. Until one has those basics mastered, you just can't progress. I am grateful for the health that I have, but I am not perfect, I have chronic asthma and allergies that leave me at certain times of the year a useless bag of bones. So when I can breathe right and see straight, and not be a sneezing mess i value each and every moment to the fullest.It strikes me, that the American culture seemed to have mastered the whole survival thing, and progressed to the self actualization...yet... American culture was comsumeing astronomical amouts of products that were unhealthy, and unsustainable, products that detracted from life.....and it would seem that the economic crisis, the housing market downturn and that whole bankster, insurance accountability is a reflection of those poor choices. Maybe that just a huge leap in thought, but I know for my family, the economic down turn forced us, and I am talking my extended family, to get back to basics, to reexamine our values, our lives, our consuption...and I know from the news that thousands of others did the same sort of self reflection.
-
I did not mean to come off like I was berating you or denying your abilities to any degree, and I try to destroy false assumptions whenever I can, but when looking at the method of union I can not help but look at the massive history of drug consumption that appears to go hand in hand. That is a thing I find beautiful about the human structure, it appears so perfectly constructed. I do not advocate drug use for the reason that it usually becomes a crutch, given that with our will and our brain we can do the things that people would normally take drugs to do, it only seems to point towards them being unnecessary for any shift in consciousness. But it is a method, just like any other and is for some people and not for others. They are treated as a drug and not as a sacrament which is why I get on people's cases for treating them like they are tied with a poor quality human.
@Veronica said"It strikes me, that the American culture seemed to have mastered the whole survival thing, and progressed to the self actualization...yet... American culture was comsumeing astronomical amouts of products that were unhealthy, and unsustainable, products that detracted from life"
It seems that Americans have not passed the love and belonging stage, we live in such a hostile country that is constantly perpetuating war and division between groups. We have sectarian inculturation entered into our perception from our earliest days in school. A lot of Americans seem like they are over obsessed with safety because they don't find comfort anywhere else, they close up into their house or into a neat box that they have constructed for themselves where they don't have to see face to face some of the things that normally happen. -
@Mens Oculus said
"It not out of context, she put drugs in the list of things that are being detrimental to the progression of our species. I am merely saying that is unfair and that within the context of spirituality throughout the ages, drugs have been a large part, as well as fasting, and being anti-social. That Aleister Crowley, the man who originated this doctrine was himself a complete indulger. That suitable for a healthy consciousness. I brought out a small snippet because I agreed with most of what she was getting across but found that a large part of what she was saying I found untrue. She was drawing such a fine line between what you can and can not do in order to be healthy enough to engage in occult learning and it was weighted on some things that have no validity or are relying on an opinionated impression of a something. I thought I would take out a few bricks and shake the foundation a bit. Moderation is the key, not the clumping into right and wrong."
Do you really think that drugs have played a large part in true spirituality throughout the ages?
And I mean drugs in the senses of thinks like pot, coke, her ion, alcohol....I would even go so far as to say eating flesh....Maybe I am just way heavy on the Scorpio sex thing....but I see spirituality as an extent ion of union, of love and a sence of well being.
To put it as blunt as possible spirituality is sex and all the chemical reactions that take place when two become one become nothing.
It would seem to me that drugs are most often just a way to feel as good as possible, to feel as well, and safe, and united....without getting laid.
I have actually found out though, that some drugs make you not want sex, and that some drugs make you not able to have sex.
So to each their own, I would rather have my brain awash in chemicals that I made myself and flushed my being with after sex. But maybe I am just oversexed.
-
I think that true spirituality is innate within the human experience and the we are born with all of the tools that are needed. But drugs like pot, opium, and mushrooms are talked about very frequently. I would imagine they were very quickly found to be varying degrees and access points of the same thing and that only recently have they become tainted with this batch of negative connotations. Getting laid is not the only way though, and there is nothing about it that implies that it is a more significant method than being celibate for ones entire life. The chemicals are not only accessible through sex, though it is a wonderful way, I am not in a situation where it is as devoteable as it is for somebody who has a long term other, so I must find other means. And my means are not through drugs, I just find them to be a helpful tool. To each their own.
-
"Do you really think that drugs have played a large part in true spirituality throughout the ages?
And I mean drugs in the senses of thinks like pot, coke, her ion, alcohol...."Yes, as is evidenced by the entire shamanic tradition, no matter the continent.
But some of the drugs you list are modern (cocaine, heroine), more highly concentrated, more highy addictive, and harder on the body.
You are also speaking of the evolution of health (healthy spirituality?), which is a different aim than the primitive necessity of the tribe for which the shaman was willing to forfeit body, mind, and soul.
-
@Swamiji said
"Absolutely nothing can "pollute" the soul.
When people are "polluted" it is inasmuch as they keep themselves separate from their soul.
93!"
You are absolutely correct, thank you for pointing that out I did mean a human being, and got lacks with my choice of words ( thinking of the common use of soul as a slang for a person as in...not a soul was home)
It is an excellent distinction to make espicially in regards to health and healing, for it is from this source that our Heath and healing arises. I would speculate that the farther a person feels separated from their soul the great potential for disease. When a person realizes that this separation is an illusion, healing can happen. When a human being realizes that in reality nothi g they do will destroy this soul, no matter how bad they have been, how poor their choices, how much harm they have done, they still are loved, and loving.
-
I've read an interesting thought today, it's from Kierkegaard's "Sickness unto death":
Health is in general the power of reconciling contradictions.
(this is my translation into english from the text in serbian that I have)he says this power is essentially the same as faith - his central theme, faith understood as passionate love for the Absolute/Ultimate/Divine. he speaks about accepting the paradox (of all existence) and jumping-into-it via Faith (which is also paradoxical) instead of staying in the duality of reason.
I see profound truth in this notion on health. for human being, healthy is - to be in accordance with the Sun, which means: to perform every particular act in such a manner that it serves the Whole, to be many (experience multitude and variety) at the same time continuously being aware that you are One. it's the subtle centeredness of awareness, which remains through many different experiences of daily life, a 'golden thread'.
healthy is to seek for that centeredness, and to cultivate it, nourish & work-on-refining it, once found.
unhealthy - everything which disables one in this regard.
