Catholic saints and Jesus
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Thelema has no official position on Jesus, though individual Thelemites have various views.
Crowley regarded him as a composite of several competing legends overlapping in that part of the world - not a real person at all.
So one theory is that he was fiction - an expression of myth. Another is that he was a historic figure, but only distantly matching the stories about him. Another view would be that he was an adept and great rabbi and (so to speak) magician.
My personal view is a variation of the middle theory.
As for the saints: Profoundly spiritual people can do miracles. Their faith was their power.
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I wNt to reply to this, not because I have any true understanding of your questions, but because I have been doing some personal research into the annointed one.
I had always been very amused by the concept of Virgin Birth. Seems like a miracle to me, that a women could make a living breathing baby, with out a man. Miracles aside of course.
Yet the actual fact of parthogenisis is a reality in nature. I had a lizard once who had babies, all on her own.
Since I have not yet ever been slapped with the silence stick, I will share that Mary, Mother of god was supposed of virgin birth as was her mother Anne.
I personally think that it is possible that the whole mythology of the virgin birth, the dying god, the annointing of god, has much more to do with how human beings came to be. In fact some women under very specific conditions can create sperm herself, and empregnant herself.
I have no idea of how long ago this may have been, and if the creature that first gave birth to an XY being was even remotely neanderthal. i wonder what that momma would have thought about this first manchild.
I think this information is actually revealed in genesis, and how God first created man and women in his image, but then later how The Lord created adam, and from adam he created eve....Two different type of people...
I have also heard that Jesus was annointed by Mary Magdelene and it was because of who she was, and who his mother was that He was the sacrifice.
It had been customary to oil up ( annoint) the sacrifice so they would burn and die faster on the fire. -
" yet how can we prove that Liber Legis is a genuine revelation?"
The need to prove that a document is a "genuine revelation," worthy of placing faith in is still the old faith paradigm, i.e. "believe in this faith because we have the 'genuine revelation' as opposed to the other faiths, which don't."
There is no proof that a document is a "genuine revelation" ever. You may come to believe that it is some day, but unlike faith-based religions that demand you take the book as divinely authoritative from square one, you are simply given the book with the opportunity to interact with its principles. Like it says, "Success is your proof."
"I want to escape that awful paradigm and sometimes I feel as if Iam close but I have not fully reconciled things?"
It takes time. We're talking about a major worldview shift - the most profound difference being the understanding that you are not truly separated from the Divine. Christianity says there's a vast separation between humanity and the Divine. Even in the highest states of bliss, the Christian mystic returns to everyday consciousness and says, "I was taken up and allowed to participate in a mysterious union of two very distinctly different things - my humanity and God's divinity." The Eastern worldview, which makes up most of occultism, would say about the same experience, "My everyday personality was silenced and dimmed, and I experienced myself on the level where all things share in one divinity."
In the normal Christian paradigm, Jesus is the only-born union of God and humanity, and all else must look to him in order to bridge the gulf between God and their own humanity.
In the esoteric Christian paradigm, Jesus is more like the "advanced revered brother" who demonstrated the possibility of human divinity to the West. Yes, he is seen as a unique historic incarnation of the Divine as a mystic, healer, and spiritual teacher, but not in a way that takes that potential away from any other human.
Do you have any specific questions?
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Yes, the "proof" of its authenticity is according to the standard of proof that would prevail in a court room: We have one witness who was there and told us what actually happened. That's "direct evidence." Absent non-circumstantial evidence to the contrary, there is no reason to doubt the witness. (At most we can think he was mistaken, or that there are alternative interpretations for the actual facts he reported.)
The ultimate vaue of the Book is what it actually provides for us - the evidence is in the consequence, the origins don't matter much.
(There ARE areas where the origins matter - for example, certainty on this point would provide actual documentaton of the presence and impact of nonmaterial transcendental beings. That's almost a separate issue than what I think you were going for.)
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Parthenogenesis has never been known amongst higher order mammals and never in primates except in mythology, Veronica."
mythology is based upon something.
Maybe when Gaia was at a different time and different place in the cosmos, things were able to be...different then what we human are capable of knowing now.
It seems funny to me that this Jesus was born this way, yet no one really ever seems to say much significance about it, ex ept for some Holy Ghost.
Its ok that most people think my ideas are not realistic, to fantastic, or weird, crazy or extreme. Ive dealt with it my whole life, but it seems that the crazy visions and ideas I have, like mythology, have a root in truth....but most people really dont want the truth.
i have read a report about a tree, a sapling actually, that was just recently discovered growing, alone of its kind, in an ancient forest that is dying. The scientist are blindfolded and brought in to figure out why this sap,ing, which has been known to be extinct is now growing, the first and only of its kind inthis forest. Because of soil and air quailty, water and tempterature, all the other species that had been succesful in this location are not living. It is being brought forward that it is possible for species u der specific conditions to, in a sence de evolve, or go back to a stage in evolution that it was sucessful.
If we have supposed repitian brains still, then I see no reason why my being could not access that brain, and no reason why my Higher self, could not know through scientific study how virgin birth came about, and how to replicate it.
i do appreciate your feed back, and information, at least you are willing to try to discuss things and understand what I am sharing.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Well - never say never - as the saying goes, but I think it's far more likely that the Jews aimed this religion at their oppressors in Rome and included the bit about Parthenogenesis because the concept (from the Greek times) of Demeter being a Virgin Mother - retold in a new setting - would appeal to the Romans.
Infact - one way to view Christianity would be to regard it as the product of a Jewish 'Jihad' - the effort of the intelligentsia of the day against their oppressors... that went a bit out of control.
Religion has always been a tool of statecraft."
i would tend to agree with some of the political religious ideas you are talki g about,
But, I wonder about stories of fatherlessness, of women who thought they were impregnated by the lighting, or wind, or wolf howl...that they expierenced the moment they felt the quickening....many of those stories have no links to Abrahamic trads at all.
Plus, it would seem to me that in The Book of Thoth, AC is fairly clear about it in his words on Lust.
Esp
This Trump is assigned to the sign of Leo in the Zodiac. It is the Kerub of Fire, and is ruled by the Sun. It is the most powerful of the twelve Zodiacal cards,' and represents the most critical of all the operations of magick and of alchemy. It represents the act of the original marriage as it occurs in nature, as opposed to the more artificial form portrayed in Atu VI; there is in this card no attempt to direct the course of the operation.
I looked for Mr.Eshelmans note on this card in the forum, but didnt see anything to elaborate on this card.
All humans start out female, and something directs them to become male. i am just wondering if at atime in the past, or future, all humans were born female..because what ever triggers the zygote to masculinize, didnt.
Would humans die out, or would we somehow reproduce.....??
And then what if at some other time, the zygote had the conditions to trigger it to become a boy....
You had mentioned another card tome, privately that related to this virgin birth, I am guessing that it would be the Lovers?
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@Dar es Allarah said
"I can see it now... some old anonymous mystic in a rude hut in the middle east - peeking into the future and saying..."So the new religion wasn't so kosher, huh? Ok! Oy Vey! I {******} up! I tried! What do you want from me!"
Or was that 'The Life of Brian'...?
"He is a very naughty boy....
Always look on the bright side of life
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I keep a mundane view of JC and all the saints. I agree that the story of JC is a group of overlapping stories.
I do beleive however, that the true origin of all these stories is in Sumerian myth. Strange stories of 'people from the stars', similar and even identical too- many many tribal myths from around the planet. Including the Australian Aboriginal, Hindi, North American Indian and many more.
As Eric VAn Damikan had noted, as with William Henry and a few others- all these stories appear to be linked.
As for the virgin birth, i read it did originate in Sumer and it is reasonably obvious what actually happened.
It was Constantine who gave the story to JC- in order to convert the local pagans, the Mithras cult, to convert to Christianity. The Catholic saints originated from the Mithras cult. Personally, i don't believe in miracles. When JC 'Rose the dead' he initiated people into the Essennes (of which he was high Priest), then the person 'came alive' rose from the dead' ' saw the light' etc etc.- it didn't actually happen.
For example, to get initiated into the Essennes, JC would wrap you into a white sheet- to symbolize death- then do a little ritual- then you would 'arise to life'- and be a member of the group. Like awakening the subconscious mind in terms of Jung. I think you will find the 'born agains' still do it today.
Q
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The only sin is restriction.
Jesus. Alot of us talk about Jesus, and when I say us. I mean alot of us in the spiritual sciences. I have had the Jesus discussion with the chaotes, the wiccans, pagans. I mean alot. It is interesting, and to hear some arguments they are quite compelling when you hear the other set of questions, you know the diffferent ones. The questions are fairly asked, and as we sit in group forums the story and credibility of Jesus dwindles. The very fact of his exsistence is questioned. Outside the Bible there is no proof. However even that has been argued. I have learned that Jesus had been.reported and recorded as to living in India, Japan, America (mormons)at different points along the scale. Just google jesus in india and you'll.get a story of him in india.
Others feel, if what has been recorded is true, that Jesus was a magician. I have been arguing this perspective myself. I have been and have come up with his last supper ritual to come back from the dead thing. High Priest Don Lewis, and blessings to Don, has stated that he feels that Jesus was a white witch.
Opinions vary, and because alot of us don't swallow by blind faith the opinions will keep.going on and on.
My experience is, I was once a pentecostal preacher and preached jesus for alot of years. But when I started waking up to.become what it is I am today. I have learned not to believe anything because someone tells you it is the truth, it's okay to question the value of anything people call a truth. Why is it true, where is the proof. I can only believe what I know according to my own experiences. I can't be overly concerned about believing something I cannot or must force myself to change what it.is I am for.something I cannot prove to be.
