Aurum Solis, Servants of Light, and filling the GD-AA gap
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"I thought 4=7GD corresponded to 1=10AA, as if the whole GD could be encopassed in the 1=10AA grade... "
There's a confusing point when you try to match all of these up. GD is a "work after" system, and A.'. A.'. is a "work before" system. By that I mean that in the G.D. model, you are initiated into a degrees and then, after that, you do the work symbolically linked to the grade. In A.'. A.'., you do the work first, and then are confirmed in the grade.
One can certainly think of the whole of the G.D. being contained in the A.'. A.'. 1=10, in the sense that both are Assiah work both are entered by initiation into the Neophyte formula, Mammoth in one is the four elements in the other, etc. But while in that First Order grade of A.'. A.'., one is doing pretty much the entire G.D. 5-6 curriculum. After "proving up" in that, one advances to 2=9, passing through the Second Order initiation ritual.
Work first. Grade initiation after.
"I actually meant the gap is huge between 1=10AA and 2=9AA, or between 5=6GD and 2=9AA."
In either of those cases, the gap is exactly one World.
"Also i read somewhere that you said a 2=9AA have the theorical knowledge of a 7=4GD."
I don't remember saying that, but it's probably about right (depending on the 7-4).
"That's a lot of things to learn by heart. I wonder how Crowley could learn this stuff in a year and a half."
He had a much better elementary education than people get today. Memorization was routine and extensive. Many schools taught Latin and Greek in the "grade school" years. It's just what he was used to.
"Would you have any advice to increase memory and astral endurance?"
The best aid to memory is capacity to concentrate, and a habit f associating different things known. As for astral, though it can be a drain sometimes, it shouldn't normally exhaust one routinely. Just as often (or more) it is vitalizing! Make sure your body is moderately strong, used to activity, etc. But I think what's going on may be some error of technique. I don't know what that might be. For example, if you're losing astral substance, you may not be banishing well orw properly preparing the space or yourself.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"As for astral, though it can be a drain sometimes, it shouldn't normally exhaust one routinely. Just as often (or more) it is vitalizing! Make sure your body is moderately strong, used to activity, etc. But I think what's going on may be some error of technique. I don't know what that might be. For example, if you're losing astral substance, you may not be banishing well orw properly preparing the space or yourself."
Thanks. Everything got clear except this last quote, in the sense it rises things i dont understand.
I feel indeed it is often vitalizing. The exhausting part is actually getting there. This can be either from fighting with myself just to do it, like if there's un unconscious resistance fighting my will to do it. So i fight back.
Then, when i actually start doing it, the exhausting part would be best described refering to the exercise of yoga advised by Crowley, where we project ourselves straight up the stars. For instance i did it only once properly, because in previous attempts i just didnt have what i called the astral endurance. My will would just shut off, so to speak. Then, when i managed to do it, it was exhausting. I know it's a part of the exercise, as you're supposed to pass out. But it felt like.... what you said. As if i had lost some astral substance also. So, i did had a wonderful experience, but i didnt last long in the astral.
Same thing when i manage to lucid dream. I cant make it last, even though i manage to make it start and have some experiences from time to time since childhood.
Concerning "preparing the space or yourself"... maybe i missed a point here indeed. Most often, i dont prepare at all actually, except basic breathing and a fast aura exercise, like the middle pillar. Is this very significant? Should i bath ritualy everytime for instance? And banish with ritual everytime? My appartement, where most of my work takes place, is also regularly in a mess... Also it's small, so no place for establishing a temple. I didnt thought such things could have a significant impact but maybe i miss a point. I do feel a difference in my aura when i bath properly and go the mosque for group prayer. Or when i do ritual in nature. Just didnt thought it could impact astral performance. Could it?
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@Horus Amin said
"I feel indeed it is often vitalizing. The exhausting part is actually getting there. This can be either from fighting with myself just to do it, like if there's un unconscious resistance fighting my will to do it. So i fight back."
Ah, well, that would explain it. Conflict with self.
"Then, when i actually start doing it, the exhausting part would be best described refering to the exercise of yoga advised by Crowley, where we project ourselves straight up the stars. For instance i did it only once properly, because in previous attempts i just didnt have what i called the astral endurance. My will would just shut off, so to speak. Then, when i managed to do it, it was exhausting. I know it's a part of the exercise, as you're supposed to pass out. But it felt like.... what you said. As if i had lost some astral substance also. So, i did had a wonderful experience, but i didnt last long in the astral."
As a variation, try this same thing not by a struggle of will, but as if sinking into a hot bath... of relaxing and letting "weight" (or denser substance) relax off of you. There is effort to remain concentrated - but the "pure rising" itself is more of a relief and relaxation than of being Superman trying to fly higher and faster by an exercise of strength. (You don't "pass out" from exertion, though in really good cases you can penetrate a band where your conscious mind no longer operates.)
"Concerning "preparing the space or yourself"... maybe i missed a point here indeed. Most often, i dont prepare at all actually, except basic breathing and a fast aura exercise, like the middle pillar. Is this very significant?"
You should always begin with a banishing pentagram (or equivalent). How much else preparation of the space you need is personal, though I would tend to cleanse with water and incense, or set my psychological tone with one or more selected candles and a select incense. And then the sort of stuff you mentioned, with the clear intent to prepare yourself as you would for deep, still meditation.
"And banish with ritual everytime?"
IMO: Absolutely, yes. That's basic to the practice. (If nothing else, you want to stabilize the ambient astral before you move out into it - calm the lake before you start swimming through it.)
"I do feel a difference in my aura when i bath properly and go the mosque for group prayer. Or when i do ritual in nature. Just didnt thought it could impact astral performance. Could it?"
Oh yes. In fact, that's probably the difference you're feeling.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Horus Amin said
"I feel indeed it is often vitalizing. The exhausting part is actually getting there. This can be either from fighting with myself just to do it, like if there's un unconscious resistance fighting my will to do it. So i fight back."Ah, well, that would explain it. Conflict with self.
"Then, when i actually start doing it, the exhausting part would be best described refering to the exercise of yoga advised by Crowley, where we project ourselves straight up the stars. For instance i did it only once properly, because in previous attempts i just didnt have what i called the astral endurance. My will would just shut off, so to speak. Then, when i managed to do it, it was exhausting. I know it's a part of the exercise, as you're supposed to pass out. But it felt like.... what you said. As if i had lost some astral substance also. So, i did had a wonderful experience, but i didnt last long in the astral."
As a variation, try this same thing not by a struggle of will, but as if sinking into a hot bath... of relaxing and letting "weight" (or denser substance) relax off of you. There is effort to remain concentrated - but the "pure rising" itself is more of a relief and relaxation than of being Superman trying to fly higher and faster by an exercise of strength. (You don't "pass out" from exertion, though in really good cases you can penetrate a band where your conscious mind no longer operates.)
"Concerning "preparing the space or yourself"... maybe i missed a point here indeed. Most often, i dont prepare at all actually, except basic breathing and a fast aura exercise, like the middle pillar. Is this very significant?"
You should always begin with a banishing pentagram (or equivalent). How much else preparation of the space you need is personal, though I would tend to cleanse with water and incense, or set my psychological tone with one or more selected candles and a select incense. And then the sort of stuff you mentioned, with the clear intent to prepare yourself as you would for deep, still meditation.
"And banish with ritual everytime?"
IMO: Absolutely, yes. That's basic to the practice. (If nothing else, you want to stabilize the ambient astral before you move out into it - calm the lake before you start swimming through it.)
"I do feel a difference in my aura when i bath properly and go the mosque for group prayer. Or when i do ritual in nature. Just didnt thought it could impact astral performance. Could it?"
Oh yes. In fact, that's probably the difference you're feeling."
Thanks for all of this...
The superman stuff made me laugh very hard... I actually assume VEGETA "godform" from dragon ball Z, sometimes, with all the muscles and veins pumping, shouting karate KIAIs astrally, throwing punches, doing ki balls and stuff...
focusing on hot bath will surely make a huge difference -
I don't believe a comparison of the G.D. and A.'. A.'. that directly aligns grades is meaningful beyond very broad terms.
This is further complicated by the fact that the G.D. and A.'. A.'. use two different composite models of the Tree of Life. The A.'. A.'. uses the middle sepheria as "gates" to each Qabalistic World and the G.D. uses a composite model with Assiah as Mulkuth, Yesod through Chesed as Yetzieah, Binah and Chokmah as Briah, and Kether as Atzilith. So by design, a 5=6 (within) A.'. A.'. would be comparable to a 7=4 Major ( Da'ath ) or 8=3 in the G.D. system. I hate to suggest 8=3 in the G.D. system as I don't believe Mathers or Westcott would have considered Order grades of 8=3 or above. There are various Traditions that consider Da'ath ( of such a Composite model of the ToL ) for all practical purposes as the Kether of Microprosopus. Even the 8=3 grade of the S.M. was more akin to a Chief installation ritual than an initiation ritual and were not considered to be functional at that level.
Emphasis on by design as I would not suggest any of the 8=3 A.'. A.'.'s we see running around today are as equipped as Westcott and Mathers ( both 7=4s of the G.D. system ) were and capable of creating such a beautiful Spiritual System.
The Aurum Solis is even more difficult to compare to either the G.D. or A.'. A.'. but what they call an Adeptus Plentus appears to correspond fairly well to the A.'. A.'. 5=6 (within) and a G.D. system 7=4 Major. I would suggest a detailed corresponding of Aurum Solis grades to not be meaningful beyond this particular association.
The Servants of Light was set up as a correspondence course by Butler ( Butler had another Order he reserved for ritual Work ) and therefore has the least amount of similarity to the other three systems discussed.
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@Tony DeLuce said
"The Servants of Light was set up as a correspondence course by Butler ( Butler had another Order he reserved for ritual Work ) and therefore has the least amount of similarity to the other three systems discussed."
What is the other order? Has it any similarity with the GD or AA? From what I read online it is by invitation only and no information is given about it
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The Ibis Fraternity. Never saw their rituals but I suspect they were likely closer to Dion Fortune's 'Society of the Inner Light' than any of the above. Fortune has three degrees, the 3rd being relatively equivalent to G.D. 5=6.
The rituals themselves bear very little similarity to the G.D. rituals...
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Thank you! Now I found something online regarding this on their website
"Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki, author, lecturer, and instructor, is a modern hierophant of the Western mystery tradition. As director of studies for the Servants of the Light (SOL), she heads a fraternity whose roots are firmly planted in the tradition of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (by way of Dion Fortune's group, the Society of the Inner Light)"
Wasn't Crowley part of the GD?
So the three degrees offered by SOL are more similar to GD initiations than the three offered by the Aurum Solis, correct?
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@Freya said
"Thank you! Now I found something online regarding this on their website
"Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki, author, lecturer, and instructor, is a modern hierophant of the Western mystery tradition. As director of studies for the Servants of the Light (SOL), she heads a fraternity whose roots are firmly planted in the tradition of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (by way of Dion Fortune's group, the Society of the Inner Light)"
Wasn't Crowley part of the GD?
So the three degrees offered by SOL are more similar to GD initiations than the three offered by the Aurum Solis, correct?"
Crowley was a 5=6 in the G.D.
Regarding S.O.L., it is a little more complicated than that. First of all the rituals of Fortune's S.I.L. bear very little resemblance to the G.D. rituals ( she wrote her own rituals using 3 rituals rather than 7 and they have different "themes", etc. ). She was a member of both the A.O. and S.M. ( at different times ) and therefore the S.I.L. is "rooted" in the G.D. ( the S.I.L. was originally formed as an "outer court" for the A.O. until Mina Mathers kicked her out "because the appropriate symbols did not appear in her aura )
.The S.O.L. enlisted David Goddard whom I don't believe has any lineage or connection to the G.D. whatsoever that I know about to create ritual groups. So now they have ritual groups but interesting enough you can join them without even being a member of the S.O.L.
I have the S.O.L. course and it is quite good ( Goddard published some of the core aspects of it in his 'Tower of Alchemy' if you would like to check it out ) but the relatively recent added ritual work they do has no connection to the Golden Dawn.
I suppose a 3rd degree S.O.L. could be considered equivalent to a 5=6 G.D. but they really are two completely different systems...
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Thank you Tony for your thorough answer, it is very much appreciated. What I am struggling to understand is the different systems of initiations, as they all seem to be based on the Tree of Life, how can they be so radically different? Do you know where I can find out more about this?
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@Freya said
"Thank you Tony for your thorough answer, it is very much appreciated. What I am struggling to understand is the different systems of initiations, as they all seem to be based on the Tree of Life, how can they be so radically different? Do you know where I can find out more about this?
Thanks"Basically you have three levels and the Source of such, i.e. the Physical, the Astral, the Spiritual, and the Source of such, or if you wish, Assiah, Yetzirah, and Briah ( the Source of such which is Atziluth ). Spiritual Evolution progresses through each of these in turn. The Tree of Life is an additional model superimposed upon these so to speak so the Qabalists speak of a Tree of Life in each of the Qabalistic Worlds. But these are just models, either useful or not, depending on the specific application of such.
The difficulty I believe you are experiencing is that much of these ends up really being theoretical, i.e. I have met 2=9 G.D. persons that were functioning higher than some 2=9 A.'. A.'. persons I have met even though the A.'. A.'. system is obviously more rigorous in approach.
Another example is that sometimes people will compare the 3rd Degree of Blue Lodge Freemasonry with the 5=6 of G.D. and in the hands of a full trained Hierophant and team, the 5=6 will almost always be at a higher level than a group of Masons raising a brother to the third degree. But not always! A group of dedicated and capable Esoteric Freemasons can rock ( pun intended ) your world more than most groups calling themselves the Golden Dawn are capable of doing. This is further complicated that often in the same Order, various Temples and Lodges function at dramatically different levels.
So the quality of the your experience in any Order you join will depend more upon the people you are directly working with than if they call themselves G.D., S.I.L., or whatever system of attainment they are based upon. The A.'. A.'. is a bit different in this respect because it is not Group Work but the quality of your Superior is very important in this regard otherwise you might as well just grab a copy of the Equinox and Jim's M&MAA ( the defacto "users guide" to such ) and knock yourself out.
A grade only has merit within the Order that grants such. What really matters is what level you are functioning at and this seldom reflects the grade you hold in any Order. A solid Order with the right people can help you get there but at the end of the day you have to do it yourself.
If you are drawn to the S.O.L., their course is quite good. I just wouldn't worry too much theoretically how their 3rd degree compares with a 5=6 G.D. or 2=9 A.'. A.'. or whatever...
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Thank you so much Tony. What I understand from what you say is that it really doesn't matter how old an order is (or its lineage, for that matter), but it is the integrity of the people within it that makes it better or worse than other groups.
Usually once its founders die, the order can change its overall "frequency", for lack of a better word. I wonder how both the Aurum Solis (with the new grand master) and the SOL (after Butler's death) have changed, for better or worse. For the former at least I feel, (and this is purely subjective) that there is a rivalry between the Aurum Solis and the Ordo Astrum Sophiae. It just comes across this way to me in the article on their page, a sort of warning to people, that the overall spirit of the OAS has changed since Denning died and Osbourne Phillips stepped down... which probably affects the "strength" of their initiations.
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I do believe lineage to be very important. The S.O.L still uses the lessons Butler wrote. I do agree that the people that make up an Order at the present time, particularly the leaders and the local group you associate with is very important in regards to the frequency you mention. But without lineage and the oral teaching and training that comes with it is a study group not an Order. I would note that every major contributor to the Western Mystery Tradition had Lineage...
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Yes, in regards to elements of their teaching but Butler did not pass on the Group Ritual work to the S.O.L. , it is a correspondence course with a personal supervisor...
And as Dion Fortune wrote her own rituals I would not consider the S.I.L. ritual work Lineage to come from Mathers either but obviously much of the teaching does.
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Very nice Tony
Freya thanks for mentioning OAS, i'ill look into that. Id' be interested too to hear more concerning latest evolutions of AS.
Since the initial post i've read Denning and Philips material. I think it doesnt need comment.
Read also quickly Biasi's Tarot book, which seems very nice too.As for SOL lineage i've read Ina Custers Magick book. Nice stuff there too. For instance they start rituals in the north, use different color attributions, star magick, pathworking based on various traditions and such. They seem to have good pedagogy for the begginner.
As for the effectiveness of orders/styles or lodges/teachers/techniques, i feel currently that it is more a question of what is optimal for a specific individual at a specific time, in conjuction with the background and environement factors. That combination will make what is optimal fluctuate for everyone, although in different rythms and different ways.
As Tony says, a Zelator of GD can be actually better than a Zelator of AA. Certainly there are even people already Adepts in Yoga who get initiated in Masonry. Thus they are as advanced as an Adept of AA on the middle pillar. Who knows how basic masonry would work for him starting with such background? Masonry material might work strong enough to make him of similar skills on all three pillars with an Adept Exemptus of AA. Still, he would not be considered as such without being able to demonstrate all required syllabus to that specific style(AA).
AA as the super complete and direct system might as well be not the fastest way possible to adepthood in some cases. In my own path for instance i'd love to join the AA now but actually it would be not optimal now, so i dont. The wanting of joining has a part which is genuine. Indeed, it is a part of my true will to join the AA(and probably the AS
) . But in my own path, this may be optimal after attainement of Adepthood.Many factors come into play. Some of them: i've started the path many years ago with eastern martial arts. Now the real internal and philosophical results start to pay off and it is a lot of work to "digest" them. Also it is a lot of work to articulate them with the western aproach .
Thus, the perfection of eastern practice and the philosophical articulation of that mastery with the western basics occupy two pillars already. Add this Thelemic religious practice, basic magick, and straight meditation, and it makes a complete and optimal "system" for my specific situation and being at that time in the path.
Each style, aspect of style, combination of styles/practices might be optimal for each individual at a specific time. For me, AA/AS may be of best use after adepthood. Some "uses" may be: kchga, (better)accomplishement of the true will, work on karma, "masonic" action(for instance in a way similar to Jim's type of involvement in Thelema and Hermetics).
All the best to all brothers and sisters of any approach.
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@Frater Horus said
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For me, AA/AS may be of best use after adepthood. "
This actually does not make any sense. Because, first: the AA system is specifically designed to get a person to that "goal" (the Next Step for humanity) - that is, at least for all those people who are not "there" yet
; and second, because after you have reached adepthood, you actually do not need any system to "guide" you further - you have the direct conscious connection with your Angel (I'm not saying it's not good, or not preferred, to work within a system, I'm only saying that it is not necessary). -
I find some material by Denning and Phillips to be "new-agey", lacking substance, and their explanation of the qabalah to be quite sketchy, compared to other authors... but that's just me. I prefer Dion Fortune, Butler and Crowley's writings (and HP Blavatsky), and to what has been recently published by the OAS. It seems to me they are very different from the GD and AA....the SOL appear to me to be closer to those systems than the OAS.... but I may be wrong