Prostitution: Yay, or Nay ?
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@ACwroteAzoetiaAt19 said
"Well cultural mores have nothing to do with stds and HIV and aids . Doesn't matter ure specific cultural viewpoint, infection, disease, can be the result. Than there's pregnancy and complications with that. If sex was meant to be shared openly oh so beautiful lets just all screw, lol wouldn't be diseases related to the act."
These problems are all solved by legalized prostitution governed by the same business laws (including health laws) as every other business. The problem is easily resolvable.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Crowley was really, really into sex. And he used it very deliberately as a magical operation, seemingly with anyone he could find to go along with him.
Diary entries from his Rex de Arte Regia (The King on the Royal Art) include a tremendous number of passages in which he records "workings" with prostitutes and others. It is a bit shocking, really, to a contemporary reader--and I'm no prude--to learn just how much time the Prophet of the New Aeon spent in sexual operations with woman he hired and used for this purpose. When I first saw this stuff, I frankly was rather stunned, even dismayed, by it all. It just seems so adolescent. Between his magical masturbating, Baphometic buggering and wizardly whoring, it's a wonder the guy had time to write.
But write he did and more. And viewed from afar, his operations--most frequently geared toward establishment of Thelemic law or supporting that aim--can maybe, perhaps, charitably, I guess, somehow be seen as having helped to propel his opus thus far, into 2013 (and beyond), which is, of course, a tremendous historic uber-feat.
Below are a few exemplars, picked at random from Crowley's explicit diary entries about prostitutes. None is particularly noteworthy, they are just examples of the kind of things he wrote regarding his experiences with whores. I found these by flipping pages until I spotted a new name. He used many of them repeatedly. Keeping with the original post, I've not bothered to include similar entries regarding manibus plenis (full hands) or Xenos en to stomati Basileos (a stranger in the mouth of the King), but you get the drift.
I am quoting these because I think anyone who fashions herself a Thelemite needs to come to grips with the man who started it all. Aspirants can easily find the exalted Class A material online, but not the more salacious stuff. Because of this, I think we can be lulled into an euphemistic view of the kind of person, judged outwardly, Mr. Crowley was in his time, and it's similarly easy to lose sight of how his behavior would be judged by the standards we apply (particularly to spiritual leaders) today. It serves none of us well who seek to advance the Thelemic current to confront this information unexpectedly.
"6 Sept. Christine Rosalie Byrne ("Peggy Marchmont") Picadilly prostitute.
Object: Knowledge of the Mysteries of the IX and power to express the same.
The girl is a sturdy bitch of 16 or so. The orgie lasted with rare and brief intervals from 11 a.m. to 10 p.m. and the ceremony was thrice performed. I was not at all exhausted and could have gone on all night. Though she was hard up, she refused even a friendly present.
Result: Success complete, since I wrote De Arte Magica; De Homunculo; De Natura Deorum; De Nuptiis Secretis Deorum com Hominibus in which will be found very great wisdom of the Gods on all this matter...""14 Nov. 10.30 p.m. to 11.30 p.m. Elsie Edwards. Obese Irish prostitute of maternal Taurus type. 3 dollars.
Object: Thanksgiving. The Glory of the sacred [Tau] and the Establish of the Holy Kingdom in this country [America].
The unattractiveness of the assistant made the operation difficult. But it was necessary to begin somehow and so far New York has shown me none of its sex side. May the Lord grant me favor in this also...."" 23 Nov. Grace Harris. [Venus] in [Libra] type, about 22. Same class and color as [another prostitute mentioned in diary].
Object. Immediate money. (Interpreted as from an unexpected source before Sunday; a wish contrary to all probability.)
The Operation was good as to concentration, mediocre orgiastically. Also the sense of sacramentalism was not strong.
Result: (I am abstaining most carefully from any act that might result naturally in my getting money.)
25 Nov. A letter came saying [800 pounds] was being found for me. But does this count?""16 Jan. 9.12 p.m. Weather like a fine day in May. Light of gas stove.
Margaret Pitcher. A young, pretty-stupid wide-mouthed flat-faced slim-bodied harlotry. Fair hair. Fine fat juicy Yoni.
Object: Money. I invoked Ic-zod-heh-ca at the same time, thinking thus to propitiate the gnomes. And I offer him also a portion of the Sacrament.
The ceremony was not good, as the girl was even more concentrated than I on the object of the Operation. But the Elixir was copious, well-formed, and of very pleasing quality. It was a fairly orgiastic rite, considering all."" 3 May 10.52 p.m. A cool night after a warm day. Medium gaslight.
Helen Marshall. Irish-American prostitute. Taurus rising. Beautiful lazy type. Not actually passionate or perverse. A cheerful comfortable girl.
Object. Wisdom.
The Operation was not very orgiastic, the control not violent. But the Elixir was very well formed.
Result: [Not described].""8 May 8.178 p.m. Gaslight. Very warm.
Viola. Hideous taurine doped prostitute. Sagittarius rising, probably in Pisces.
Object: A mate, o Babalon, if Thou Lovest me!
The Operation was not so poor as anticipated, though it was a typically bad one. The Elixir was admirable, well-formed in every way.
Result: ...almost the next day I met one, H., with whom I fell violently in love."" 23 May 9.30 p.m. Moonlight. Night clear and cool after a fine breezy day with some cloud.
Marie Low, young rather pretty negress of the prostitute class. In manu Dominae [trans. "In the hand of the lady."]
Object: Wisdom.
The Operation was orgiastic enough under the poor conditions. The Elixir was very copious and of magnificent quality.
Result: [Not described]."It goes on, and on and on and on like this.....
Love is the law, love under will.
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@Jim if it was completely professional with std tests and security and protection for the male and female workers than yes this would be ok. Legalize it but it must be profesional and safe this will take crime and drugs out of it. At kasper lol spoken like a twenty year old yes I went off topic but once uve been on this planet longer u won't be so naive about relationships.
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Prostitution -- like most consensual crimes -- is legal if you have enough money to afford it. And, of course, the good sense to be discreet about it. Escort services are one example...
Like most "moral" issues, they only apply to the class-consciousness that believe the fetters are actually there. I think it really boils down to an income inequality issue, but many people disguise it in their brain as some sort of ethical nonsense. Oh, and there's that whole oxytocin business, too.
Sex on demand is not an issue if your bank account is large enough. The laws seem to apply to the ones that are not able to afford more discreet services...
Anyway:
There is no law beyond Do who thou wilt.
Let's face it -- monogamy, dating, etc. can sometimes be an excuse for "legal" prostitution. Sex in exchange for goods and services could apply to many marriages. And "friends with benefits" does not just refer to coitus -- sometimes, it's just a matter of picking up the bill for sushi and sake before "dessert."
@ David -- thanks for those excerpts! Would Crowley have kept an archive if he had an Iphone? Methinks his money magick would have taken on a whole new ineffable light!
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@ACwroteAzoetiaAt19 said
"@Jim if it was completely professional with std tests and security and protection for the male and female workers than yes this would be ok. Legalize it but it must be profesional and safe this will take crime and drugs out of it. At kasper lol spoken like a twenty year old yes I went off topic but once uve been on this planet longer u won't be so naive about relationships."
That would be exactly the idea.
Ever hear of an organization called C.O.Y.OT.E.? (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics.) It was the successor of W.H.O. (Whores, Housewives & Others). I had a long lunch with Margot St. James sometime in the late '70s at a 4S conference where we were both speaking and, though the basic idea had been clear to me before, she really nailed the point. Laws against prostitution are all wrong for all sorts of reasons that I'm sure I don't have to itemize. Her activism in Rhode Island centered on both civil rights and discriminatory prosecution angles, and she was credited with ending the criminalization of prostitution in Rhode Island for 30 years.
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Sounds good Jim . And sorry Kasper I should not have pulled age card went thru a bad breakup last year . I mean I'm over it now its just I need to set up better ways to protect myself and take my time to get to know someone . Sorry bout that
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@ACwroteAzoetiaAt19 said
"Well cultural mores have nothing to do with stds and HIV and aids . Doesn't matter ure specific cultural viewpoint, infection, disease, can be the result. Than there's pregnancy and complications with that. If sex was meant to be shared openly oh so beautiful lets just all screw, lol wouldn't be diseases related to the act."These problems are all solved by legalized prostitution governed by the same business laws (including health laws) as every other business. The problem is easily resolvable."
I agree with the above. It's the EXPLOITATION of women that is the problem and that can only occur provided the act itself and the transaction is illegal and criminalized. Make it legal and it can become like any business and women can work for themselves, if they choose. But as Crowley mentioned, as the law of the
new Aeon dawns and comes to fruition prostitution may become the appendix of society, and thus ephemeral and useless. -
@milkboxx my god did u just come up with that response off the top of ure head , Jesus I hope I can be born with an I.Q. Like that in my next lifetime and others that speak that way on here , geez I'm not able to do so but I guess we are all born with gifts
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@milkBoxx said
"It's the EXPLOITATION of women that is the problem and that can only occur provided the act itself and the transaction is illegal and criminalized. Make it legal and it can become like any business and women can work for themselves, if they choose."
Given ACwrote's praise for this, I feel compelled to point out that it strikes me as mostly incorrect.
I'll accept that one can better control for STDs and inhumane working conditions in a legal rather than criminal context. But that alone won't do away with exploitation, at all. Walmart workers can be exploited too, you know. And yeah, I guess, "woman can work for themselves, if they choose," but I highly doubt that legalizing prostitution would eradicate the creature called pimp.
It might be that legalization is the right way to go, but a panacea it is not.
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These ladies of the night hold up red lamps,
And those who know, they cum, they greet HER
Exchange of solar energies, a coupling
Where there is only operation, there is nothing
No emotional ties, the ritual binds
The Earth with the Heights of HeavenBy utilizing a prostitute, one may more easily detach,
Leaving operation unobscured by entanglements -
And able to be concentrated upon a single goal,
Attaining A Sense One Is Whole -
@kasper81 said
"Did you grow up in an Amish community?"
No.
Did you grow up around anyone who went hunting almost nightly for new whores to fuck, to bathhouses regularly for blowjobs from strangers, and who wanked in between furiously, seeking thereby to conjure money, wisdom, love and power while claiming it was all done to fulfill a sanctified higher purpose?
Would you follow a living guru who behaved like this?
What would your mother say? Or your girlfriend/wife?
Crowley's behavior was by any account abnormal. It would be considered by most deeply pathological. Although I have come to adopt much of his worldview, I had not confronted how aberrant Crowley was as a man, even by today's more libertine standards. I had not, in other words, found the need to sort Thelema from Crowleyana. Having read these diaries, I now think this is critical. Especially if one wants to share this worldview newly with others.
Like I said, I suspect many who fashion themselves Thelemites haven't made this distinction. They haven't confronted how nasty "do what thou wilt" can become, what extremes it permits. And they probably haven't looked at how an affiliation with a quasi-religion founded by Crowley could be used to cast its adherents as perverts. This has potentially dire real world consequences, particularly if you work in a professional or political setting, or if you have or work with children.
So unless you are already a deviant (or psychopath) and just don't give a care what anyone else thinks of you, these things are important to recognize and to be prepared to address when they come up. Simply put, Crowley was not being at all hyperbolic when he wrote the following in Liber CL:
"...History teacheth us that the supreme masters of the world seek ever the vilest and most horrible creatures for their concubines, overstepping even the limiting laws of sex and species in their necessity to transcend normality. It is not enough in such natures to excite lust or passion: the imagination itself must be enflamed by every means."
I admit that I'm struggling to be OK with his "every means," but, as I do so, I find that I am penetrating to a new understanding of the Law. -
[rant]
Most of what was said in this thread makes me think the following things:
- By all means, quite some of you guys should really see into it that you get some, regularly, make that a number one priority, before posting again!
- Relax. Really, relax. Relax!!!
- missmaggiemayhem.com/
- Grow up. Please.
One of you has still deserved special notice:
@David S said
"What would your mother say?"
You seriously think about what your mother would say when deciding what kind of sex to have? WTF?
@Liber Al said
"Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will!"
This thread is painful to read ... as if I had entered a catholic convent or somesuch
[/rant]
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@David S said
"Crowley's behavior was by any account abnormal."
Then again, so were his results.
I'm not saying one necessarily has to be so abnormal (and I'm certainly not saying one has to follow Crowely's behavior pattern). Then again, we're all in some kind of closet, don't you think?
"It would be considered by most deeply pathological."
I find it rather exciting and gratifying that someone who saw things differently from other people, thought about things differently than other people, and followed a personal ethical code at odds with that by which most people live... had a psychological and spiritual outcome quite different of that from most people. As anecdotal examples go, it's a rather striking one.
"Although I have come to adopt much of his worldview, I had not confronted how aberrant Crowley was as a man, even by today's more libertine standards."
And I'm sure you haven't read his diaries from thje '40s, in his late 60s and early 70s, which are filled with an insane amount of sex and, primarily, coprophilia.
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Agreed.To me, the most important lesson is: Stop trying to have a religion built around One Perfect Man Who Is Without Flaw. The genius thing that Crowley's life teaches is that enormous attainment is not a consequence of being sinless, and probably isn't per se a consequence of being "sinful" (though some would argue that) - rather, it is simply that imperfect people can have enormous attainment. It isn't a moral issue. The message is never the messenger.
Our system is about the idea, not the ideator.
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@Simon Iff said
"* By all means, quite some of you guys should really see into it that you get some, regularly, make that a number one priority, before posting again!"
Check:
22 years old. Blue eyed girl -- beautiful with very white skin, of Jewish descent. Short dark hair, a blue streak in it, kind of cut like Skrillex on one side. A few facial piercings. Tattoo of ATU X on her left arm, which was based on a scene taken from a T.S. Eliot poem. Rolled her bean until my beanstalk grew. Enjoyed some other garden variety plants as a sacrament prior...
Yoni without an inferior or a superior beard.
@David S said
"Crowley's behavior was by any account abnormal."
@Jim Eshelman said
"Then again, so were his results. I'm not saying one necessarily has to be so abnormal (and I'm certainly not saying one has to follow Crowely's behavior pattern). Then again, we're all in some kind of closet, don't you think? "
What are you insinuating with the closet comment?
Seriously though, accounts can be abnormal -- but what makes them abnormal? The consensus, right? However, this is a consensual crime -- and coprophilia would fall into the same category. No one hurts anyone else -- who cares if someone calls it abnormal? Evolution starts as an "abnormal" adaptation, better suited for the environment...
Btw - I think watching TV is abnormal.
Listen, I'm not saying we should try to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t. It's just that arguments always scare me if we appeal to them because they're "normal," but they aren't really hurting anybody but our individual sensibilities and preferences...
@Jim Eshelman said
"To me, the most important lesson is: Stop trying to have a religion built around One Perfect Man Who Is Without Flaw. The genius thing that Crowley's life teaches is that enormous attainment is not a consequence of being sinless, and probably isn't per se a consequence of being "sinful" (though some would argue that) - rather, it is simply that imperfect people can have enormous attainment. It isn't a moral issue. The message is never the messenger. Our system is about the idea, not the ideator."
Yes! The difference between atavistic dogmatism and a living, evolving system. Crowley was cool, yes -- but he borrowed heavily on the pioneers that came before him. He was just another cog in the ROTA...and we should be pressing on with the system...which we are.
To me, what Crowley represented is someone who experimented without care for any stigmas, and he kept challenging his own. He realized he could manipulate his excitement levels at will.
He was his own programmer! What freedom! And he seemed to have a blast...
The Magician should devise for himself a definite technique for destroying “evil.” The essence of such a practice will consist in training the mind and the body to confront things which case fear, pain, disgust, shame and the like. He must learn to endure them, then to become indifferent to them, then to become indifferent to them, then to analyze them until they give pleasure and instruction, and finally to appreciate them for their own sake, as aspects of Truth. When this has been done, he should abandon them, if they are really harmful in relation to health and comfort. Also, our selction of “evils” is limited to those that cannot damage us irreparably. E.g., one ought to practice smelling assafoetida until one likes it; but not arsine or hydrocyanic acid. Again, one might have a liaison with an ugly old woman until one beheld and loved the star which she is; it would be too dangerous to overcome the distaste for dishonesty by forcing oneself to pick pockets. Acts which are essentially dishonourable must not be done; they should be justified only by calm contemplation of their correctness in abstract cases.
Love is a virtue; it grows stronger and purer and less selfish by applying it to what it loathes; but theft is a vice involving the slave-idea that one’s neighbour is superior to oneself. It is admirable only for its power to develop certain moral and mental qualities in primitive types, to prevent the atrophy of such faculties as our own vigilance, and for the interest which it adds to the “tragedy, Man.”
[...]
This then in the virtue of the Magick of The Beast 666, and the canon of its proper useage; to destroy the tendency to discriminate between any two things in theory, and in practice to pierce the veils of every sanctuary, pressing forward to embrace every image; for there is none that is not very Isis...
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All this talk about prostitution is making me super wet. -
@David S said
"Crowley's behavior was by any account abnormal."
Have a look at the line at which psychological, healthcare and sociological professionals currently tend to draw the objective line between healthy and pathological behaviour:
"Any sexual behaviour that is consensual and does not endanger oneself or others, is to be considered healthy; while anything that oversteps that line is to be considered pathological."
@Crowley said
"... our selection of “evils” is limited to those that cannot damage us irreparably. E.g., one ought to practice smelling assafoetida until one likes it; but not arsine or hydrocyanic acid. Again, one might have a liaison with an ugly old woman until one beheld and loved the star which she is etc. etc. ..."
If you got a problem with that, it's your problem, not someone else's mental illness. See how he is saying the exact same as the above, very modern definition?
The moment one has a problem with one's own or other's expression of sexuality - even though it is consensual and doesn't seriously endanger anyone - one has become a slave or a tyrant due to the idea that people's bodies do not exclusively belong to themselves - to do with as they please, when, where and how and with whom they (consensually) wish to.
I do hope I have made it any clearer where I am coming from, I am working with discriminated people as a kink aware professional, their suffering usually comes from opinions like some of those in this very thread ...
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@Simon Iff said
"* By all means, quite some of you guys should really see into it that you get some, regularly, make that a number one priority, before posting again!"
You'd be surprised, I think.@Simon Iff said
"You seriously think about what your mother would say when deciding what kind of sex to have? WTF?"
Not my point (although, at some level, we probably all have a mother complex going on somewhere in the subsconscious). What I was trying to infer is that the outward conduct of the man, Crowley, is uncomfortable for me to admit. That doesn't make him bad or wrong. It says more about me than him. I get that. I simply offer the reaction because I doubt I'm alone in wrestling with this aspect of Thelema.@Simon Iff said
""Any sexual behaviour that is consensual and does not endanger oneself or others, is to be considered healthy; while anything that oversteps that line is to be considered pathological.""
Yes, I think that sounds like a reasonable place to draw a line.
@Simon Iff said
"I do hope I have made it any clearer where I am coming from, I am working with discriminated people as a kink aware professional, their suffering usually comes from opinions like some of those in this very thread"
I think you perhaps confuse my observations and considerations with opinions, but I appreciate the ferocity of your views. -
@Jim Eshelman said
"Then again, so were his results. "
Agreed. I tried to acknowledge this initially, albeit without admitting a link between such operations and the intended results, since I don't have enough experience of my own to go on.@Jim Eshelman said
"Then again, we're all in some kind of closet, don't you think? "
Yes, I think we are all somewhat repressed and restricted. And I actually like how far out Crowley went. It makes me feel somehow more secure pushing to my own extremes.@Jim Eshelman said
"To me, the most important lesson is: Stop trying to have a religion built around One Perfect Man Who Is Without Flaw. The genius thing that Crowley's life teaches is that enormous attainment is not a consequence of being sinless, and probably isn't per se a consequence of being "sinful" (though some would argue that) - rather, it is simply that imperfect people can have enormous attainment. It isn't a moral issue."
I'm personally inclined to go one step further and find a way to accept Crowley, with regard to all of this relatively harmless sex stuff we're talking about, as perfect and as sinless. I'm just beginning to wrap my head around it, that's all. -
@Frater 639 said
"22 years old. Blue eyed girl... "
I'm just quoting you here so I can say I agree with everything you wrote.
