Proof of Divine Providence
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Once I`ve read something from a shaman that I find amazing.
“Everything has a spirit, but not all spirits have power”
Since a do not take riddle stuff seriously (as I do not take most thinks seriously), the question I believe that should be asked is:
Does it have power?
If yes, you got something.
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@Faus said
"Once I`ve read something from a shaman that I find amazing.
“Everything has a spirit, but not all spirits have power”
Since a do not take riddle stuff seriously (as I do not take most thinks seriously), the question I believe that should be asked is:
Does it have power?
If yes, you got something."
Try it. My own answer, and here I can only talk about MY experience, is an emphatic YES! I know (for me at least) it has power. However, of course one can give anything power for themselves if they believe in it. The question here is, does it have objective power? I say TRY IT! Look into it, study it, and see for yourself. Speaking for myself only, I have MY proof of providence and its relevence, but I feel it goes beyond just my own sphere.
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@Jason R said
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my own answer, and here I can only talk about MY experience, is an emphatic YES! I know (for me at least) it has power. "So harness the power of your discovery and be the living example of its power. Success is my proof.
@Jason R said
"I say TRY IT! Look into it, study it, and see for yourself. Speaking for myself only, I have MY proof of providence and its relevence, but I feel it goes beyond just my own sphere."
Already tried scrying at it? Calling its power? What new knowledge comes from this new table? What heavens and hells are commanded by its power?
Mathematic tricks are cool, but some interesting answers for these questions would it make worth investigating. Otherwise, why bother? -
@Faus said
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@Jason R said
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my own answer, and here I can only talk about MY experience, is an emphatic YES! I know (for me at least) it has power. "So harness the power of your discovery and be the living example of its power. Success is my proof.
@Jason R said
"I say TRY IT! Look into it, study it, and see for yourself. Speaking for myself only, I have MY proof of providence and its relevence, but I feel it goes beyond just my own sphere."
Already tried scrying at it? Calling its power? What new knowledge comes from this new table? What heavens and hells are commanded by its power?
Mathematic tricks are cool, but some interesting answers for these questions would it make worth investigating. Otherwise, why bother?"Yes and no. I admit I'm not as skilled in skrying as I would want, but I have tried. Yes, I received "results", but again, this is subjective. Does it provide anything new? Good question, again I say yes, but I am not in a position to declare these, or understand them fully myself. Part of the reason I am Sharing it, is to get help in understanding it. Some of those here have a lot more knowledge and insight AND experience to decide this than me. That's part of why I ask everyone to look themselves. I'm sure, for example, Jim could get a LOT more out if it than me, or easily catch problems. But, whatever I get out of it isn't "evidence" really, because it is just "subjective" opinion, and MY take on it. I could be totally wrong, and yet this may not be proof either way, because it is MY subjective interpretation. This is why, I stuck to the numbers, and the symbolic consistency, since that is at least something objective we can agree on, since say "666" has meaning to us all according to our being magicians and of course Thelemites.
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Well, I understand your position. I see no reason to worry to get confirmation. It is like what was once suggested about learning the name of your Angel, you simply keep doing the work assigned to your grade. There will be a time when you will be able to access this table and validate it.
I also understand why most people won’t bother to spend energy with it. The other tables we have do the job just fine, why should we need a new one? Can it be a better table? Sure! But it can be just a huge waste of time. Probably it won’t be a priority for them.
About the numbers, I never understood why Crowley spent so much time playing with them and saying that they prove something. They are the kind of thing that only makes sense inside the symbolic system he is using.
For example, I use the French set of attributions of Hebrew letters to the tarot. As a result of it I get some really cool ideas that those using thelema-golden dawn attributions do not. Are they proves that my set is better?
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@Faus said
"Well, I understand your position. I see no reason to worry to get confirmation. It is like what was once suggested about learning the name of your Angel, you simply keep doing the work assigned to your grade. There will be a time when you will be able to access this table and validate it.
I also understand why most people won’t bother to spend energy with it. The other tables we have do the job just fine, why should we need a new one? Can it be a better table? Sure! But it can be just a huge waste of time. Probably it won’t be a priority for them.
About the numbers, I never understood why Crowley spent so much time playing with them and saying that they prove something. They are the kind of thing that only makes sense inside the symbolic system he is using.
For example, I use the French set of attributions of Hebrew letters to the tarot. As a result of it I get some really cool ideas that those using thelema-golden dawn attributions do not. Are they proves that my set is better?"
Of course, really, your right. In the end it only matters for the individual, and as you wisely say, later if it is to be it will be validated. But, if you discovered something (at least to you) that seemed to have value for your fellow Thelemites, and objective truth, what would you do? I chose to share it, if someone else also finds it helpful, useful in their work, or if by some chance it DOES have objective truth then its worth it. If no one cares, fine. Of course it bothers me that others may see me as some kook, or moron or whatever else they may say, but I cant be afraid of that, I truly believe in it. I truly, honestly believe it has something to it, so in that personal belief I bravely offer myself up. I believe in Thelema, if there's a chance I have anything to give our cause, then I'm going to give it regardless. No one has to accept it, we all know the Law.
As for the numbers etc., my only input is that I stick with what the Master Therion saw fit. It stands to reason he would know and use what worked and what was in alignment with that system. Yes, to some degree the numbers meanings are subjective, yet we ALL (even Bible thumping xtians) HAVE to nod to these numbers significance, historical significance, that by now are well known. These numbers and their relationship themselves stand to impress in themselves devoid of our subjective ideas.
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Here is the completed Thelemic Tablet. It shows each square with the completed correspondences, Tarot number, English letters, English letter of Abrahadabra, and main element of division.
I use one framed like this in the East of my temple. Each square can be travelled into, or evoked by the 5 & 6 lettered name horizontal, ruled by the vertical for each square. These are, I believe, the "ordeals of her knowledge", the Worship about the secret house.
"Lurk! Withdraw! Upon them! this is the Law of the Battle of Conquest: thus shall my worship be about my secret house."
These, I believe, are the "islands" you choose, and fortify, and "dung about". This, to me anyway, is a war-engine.
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My argument for Proof
The main arguement against this, actually the only one possible, being proof of a directing intelligence at work, is that its simply chance. However, this doesn't hold up, if you truly look at it. One cannot point to the comparison of the statistical likelihood of a "winning hand in poker", being directly equivalent to any other hand, since what sets this apart from that is prediction. It would be the same then if one were to be given a set of directions on how to arrive at random cards to obtain a significant result, and after doing so, out of a random deck, achieving a perfect hand. The prediction of a result, and then obtaining a result from following it, rules out this analogy of it being comparable to flipping a coin.
In addition, what is the statistical likelihood that these "random" results should align perfectly, by pure number no less, to the very source it was derived? One could try to argue that one sees a "pattern" or result they want to see, that through playing with the results, they eventually can find whatever they want. The problem with this explanation, while certainly true of some proposed solutions, is that there isn't much room for manipulation (really just 3 steps). The difference is in the direct manner the results are obtained, in a very limited fashion, and in the obvious number results obtained which leave very little room for ambiguity. After all, 666 & 418 are well known numbers to all Thelemites, and of course 666 to even most who aren't.
In addition, the sheer breadth of internal symbolic consistency adds to its validity. If one was asked to accept another "take" of what a number means, or symbolises in order for it to work, that would be a red flag, yet, here, we have numbers well known and mentioned openly within the Book of the Law, and the harmony of these findings with the overall meaning cannot be disputed. An example of this, again worth repeating, is the "foursquare" 666, which anyone with just a basic knowledge of magic and occult symbology, has to admit is perfectly at home within a square of 36 (which is already associated with the magical square of the Sun), and totalling to 666 by way of 6 lines totalling 111 (AUM HA 6x111). These are well beyond being a personal take or spin on an interpretation, these are established symbols used in the occult for decades.
If we also take into account other harmonies or coincidences, like the fact needing to fold the number sequence of 0 through 25 at 0 - 12 & 13 - 25, and it just so happens to perfectly agree with the Tarots macro/micro division, we of course strengthen this arguement. Likewise we arrive at the possibility of arriving at 666 & 418, through three repeated numbers: 5,14,23, which when seen as the number order of the Tarot and assigned English, and Greek, sum by some miracle in Greek and Hebrew to 666. Which again, in another way - this number is related to this solution, and in a manner unconnected to the actual numbers added, but instead through the arbitrary relationship of related Alphabet letter order.
Crowley could not have possibly created such a merging of factors, nor could he, if he fabricated it all, adding in the ciphers, known how these riddles would have inspired someone over a hundred years later to follow them. The fact that my chosen, interpretation of the verses and riddles, directed me to unlock these results, is proof that the author of them, was able to predict the future, and bring together various factors such as the inherent mathematical possibility for the results, as well as the seemingly random evolution of Alphabet, Tarot elements, as well as all the events that brought about the very significance of the numbers involved, to be just what AC described.
In the end, one has to conclude all of this is well beyond the possibility of pure chance, and admit all other possible scenerios are absurd, such as AC having found this before writing Liber L, and composing the riddles in some hope it is discovered later, and used as evidence. In order for this idea to work, you STILL have to overcome the problem of how it was there in the first place, knowing that these numbers were symbolically important even before him. It doesn't add up, and the only real counter claim, is that it is a freak of chance, but no where can anyone show a comparable result. Is there another such freak of nature? If so, where? To equate this with the idea of chance only holds up minus the area of prediction, and obvious, and agreed upon symbolic relevence and high consistency. The predictions lead to the results consistant with its inherent claim, and the symbology is consistant with the overall scheme of the predictions.
The method is simple, the results shocking, and it all is in alignment with the Book of the Law, Crowleys claim, and the riddles. All of this taken into account, I assert, sets it well above ANYTHING before -- there are NO other comparable examples. Its subtle, and takes time to allow all of these points come to light, and make sense, but when they do, its simply undeniable. I believe this is the proof mentioned in Liber L., and what joy and certainty would come from realizing the truth there IS Divine Providence, that all that occurs is as it should be, and we are indeed a part of something much greater than ourselves? AC made the prediction that within the new Aeon mankind would perhaps prove life beyond death, this would, seeing that it confirms the idea of a directing spiritual force, confirming the spiritual and magical model of the universe.
I always felt maybe the term "locked glass", referred to the computer screen, or perhaps the Internet, in that of course it goes out to the world, and miraculous color comes back to it year after year, where one could present this proof, closed then in locked glass as a proof to the world. So, I leave this here as my proof to the world, and hope others see its worth and power, seeing it as the pure Gold it is.
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@Jason R said
" One cannot point to the comparison of the statistical likelihood of a "winning hand in poker", being directly equivalent to any other hand, since what sets this apart from that is prediction. It would be the same then if one were to be given a set of directions on how to arrive at random cards to obtain a significant result, and after doing so, out of a random deck, achieving a perfect hand. The prediction of a result, and then obtaining a result from following it, rules out this analogy of it being comparable to flipping a coin."
Except that the Book of the Law does not contain a specific prediction or a specific "set of directions" for achieving your results.
Your "directions" are based on an arbitrary interpretation of vague passages. For example, there's nothing in the "paste the sheets" line that suggests the tarot. You interpreted it as an instruction about the tarot, and you've found a way to follow your arbitrary intepretation that yields a result that seems meaningful. If it didn't yield a meaningful result, you wouldn't have said anything about it: you would have tried a different arbitrary interpretation and kept trying different combinations until you got something that seems meaningful. And on and on and on, until you got something.
That's the problem with what you're doing: you think you're following some "set of directions" given in the Book when in fact it's just an arbitrary interpretation of vague passages, which someone can keep doing until he gets an apparently meaningful result.
"In addition, what is the statistical likelihood that these "random" results should align perfectly, by pure number no less, to the very source it was derived?"
If you keep playing with numbers, you're eventually going to get numbers that are meaningful to you, even if they are meaningful to you because they meant something to Crowley.
" there isn't much room for manipulation (really just 3 steps)"
Three steps deriving from arbitrary interpretation. If they didn't yield anything, you could try a different arbitrary interpretation, and so on, until something produces apparently meaningful results.
"The fact that my chosen, interpretation of the verses and riddles, directed me to unlock these results, is proof that the author of them, was able to predict the future, and bring together various factors such as the inherent mathematical possibility for the results, as well as the seemingly random evolution of Alphabet, Tarot elements, as well as all the events that brought about the very significance of the numbers involved, to be just what AC described."
This is a complete non-sequitur. Even if you were right, that this really is a consciously-designed puzzle, and even if you were right that Crowley somehow couldn't have designed the puzzle -- two bald assertions that you have no valid grounds for -- it still wouldn't follow that the puzzle was therefore created by someone who has the ability to see the future.
It also would tell us nothing about the existence of "Divine Providence." After all, in a universe devoid of divine providence, there's nothing stopping a person from coming up with a cool number puzzle.
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1. "No specific directions, only your interpretation of vague passages."
Except that it fits, and is a perfectly reasonable interpretation miraculously leading to an obvious result. In addition, these "vague passages" were obviously meant to be vague, and why? No doubt that is the very point, that from an individuals personal inspiration these "keys" would serve to unlock the hidden solution, perhaps at the proper time?
It really doesn't matter if the directions aren't perfectly clear does it? Like ANY riddle, its vague, and of course when the answer is revealed, what once was vague and strange springs to life and it all makes sense, in an "AHA!" moment. The fact that this solution does this, that looking at what it produces as a whole, and how perfectly it answers these riddles, is justification.
Can you then, demonstrate this point of yours? Show me such a "cool number game" with as much coherent symbolism. Ive already asked, and you still have yet to offer up a perfect example. I know your waiting excuse "ah why should I waste my time on such BS?"
2. "Keep playing with numbers and you'll eventually get the result your looking for."
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I assigned the sequencing of the Tarot to the English.
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I folded it, right to left & top to bottom.
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I reduced.
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I added it all up.
The simple four steps above provided half the sums of foursquare 666 in quadrants of 36, including 6 x 111. A central cross of 418. AND a pertinent arrangement of Tarot cards in a blending of Macro/Micro. All of this instantly, from the above four. How much toying again?
Four SIMPLE and straight forward steps. Define for me specifically, what you call "playing" or "toying"?
Explain where in my interpretation or decision I was illogical or unreasonable.
Can you, once again, provided something of comparable ease and with comparable results?
3. "It only means something to you because it meant something to AC."
Really. So tell me, 666 had meaning ONLY to Crowley? Not to mention 111, and 56, and 36, 25, and 50, not to other would be occultists, Qabalists, or even Bible thumpers for ages? And AGAIN I ask, define "toying", because the above four steps really do not amount to much hard, long hours of manipulation.
If your suggesting by "playing", that I kept at it, with other various interpretations and ideas, for example of what the directions meant, how does that make null and void the results? Much of discovery is made this way, unless you would fault trial and error? One usually tries various methods until something works, research usually obtains results this way, why not for riddle solving too? How else would you propose someone to solve it? Are you suggesting a riddle is null and void unless solved on the first try? Or that somehow, it doesn't count if someone simply guessed it? It HAS to be spelled out I suppose, in glorious detail like everything else in the occult, or science, or many other areas of life right? Oh, that's right, there IS no solution, because you say its impossible.
Its funny, because you actually contradict yourself with your own arguement as well. If you were right, and it was so easy to just create a solution such as this out of thin air, why hasn't anyone? We should see JUST as reasonable, and striking results in just as straight forward a manner a dozen a day. You tried you said, did YOU come up with any comparable solutions? If so, once again, I say prove me wrong, share it!
But you said it before "nobody has found anything." Well what then would you define as a solution? What YOU, and YOU only accept or expect as one? If it doesn't produce electricity and solve world hunger it isn't a solution just a "cool number game"? Have you taken into consideration your wrong in your understanding of the universe? That we are growing, in stages, and we need to solve particular things ourselves? This solution simply assists us in a further awakening, a new knowledge, in order to help us grow spiritually. By following this system, and magick, we actually change mankind through changing ourselves.
4. "No valid grounds for a being able to predict the future, or for AC not being able to consciously design this puzzle."
No valid grounds? How about your "critical thinking skills"? Explain how you justify this claim? What human being could arrange the order of Alphabets, the choice in Tarot numbering, mathematics to all come together to produce 666 & 418, as DIRECTLY predicted and described, not at all vaguely in Liber L? How COULD Crowley design it? Are you serious here, or being sarcastic? So AC could figure out how to make the four steps above result in 5,14,23 and those correspond to three Greek letters totalling 666, and so in and so on and so on? That's thinking even MORE of AC than the biggest AC "worshipper" could! Maybe secretly you DO believe he was our "Christ!" lol.
Look at this solution. It has what? Go ahead LOOK at it. Ill help by describing it in case you have bad vision, it is a square with FOUR quadrants adding to 666. FOUR quadrants around a CENTRAL cross of 418. Now, read this:
2:78 "...They shall worship thy name, foursquare, mystic, wonderful, the number of a man; and the name of thy house 418."
Or
**"I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men."
"There are four gates to one palace..."**
Of course you will deny the blantant and obvious similarities for the sake of argument. That's Ok, others will decide, and see exactly what is right there in front of them.
I think its actually a real interesting prediction in Liber L as well, in the verses:
"Begone! ye mockers; even though ye laugh in my honour ye shall laugh not long: then when ye are sad know that I have forsaken you."
I think this fits pretty well with those who claim to be "Thelemites", and yet mock its very prophet. Those that, like traiters, seek to cast dispersion among its ranks, laughing it up, making fun of its power, and predictions, and so the validity of its Gods. Those with a "mission" to cleanse it or whst not. Interesting that the author, had enough foresight to add this, as if they knew certain folks would arise to challenge it, yet like it says "in my honour" -- that is right on the money boy!
I want to remind you to answer the above questions, and give me an example of this solution. Explain how YOU think chance can produce a complex design of symbolic consistency, TO MOST OCCULTISTS. This is something you subtly gloss over. It isn't simply MYSELF that sees these symbols and consistency, everyone does, or you wouldn't have called it "cool".
I do give you credit for your feedback and opinion, even if we do not agree, so thanks are in order, regardless. I admit, I'm sure many here have the same opinion, and so actually you provided me the oppertunity to answer these arguements.
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@Jason R said
"1. "No specific directions, only your interpretation of vague passages."
Except that it fits"
That's not a response to my objection.
You specifically said that your results weren’t a simple matter of chance because you were following a “set of directions” in the Book itself.
My objection is that there isn’t a set of directions in the Book: just a bunch of vague stuff that can be interpreted into lots and lots of different “sets of instructions” which each could be followed lots and lots of different ways. I further pointed out that you could keep trying different “sets of directions” interpretations until you find one that fits.
You can’t respond sensibly to that by saying, “But I found one that fits!” because that doesn’t at all contradict what I was saying.
"In addition, these "vague passages" were obviously meant to be vague, and why? No doubt that is the very point, that from an individuals personal inspiration these "keys" would serve to unlock the hidden solution, perhaps at the proper time?"
I don’t agree that there’s “no doubt” about it. If there really were “no doubt,” we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
It might be, for example, that it’s just a bunch of vague sh!t that doesn’t mean anything in particular, that different people can interpret into different “sets of directions.” [I'm not saying that I, myself, am claiming that about these passages...but I'm presenting a real possibility that you cannot discount]
Now, you happened to invent an arbitrary set of directions and a way to fulfil that set of directions that gave you a cool-looking result. But that doesn’t tell us anything at all about the Book itself.
"Show me such a "cool number game" with as much coherent symbolism. Ive already asked, and you still have yet to offer up a perfect example."
Because it would take time and effort, which I don’t really have right now, especially not to prove a point that should be pretty simple to grasp, for the reasons I'm explaining to you.
"1. I assigned the sequencing of the Tarot to the English.
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I folded it, right to left & top to bottom.
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I reduced.
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I added it all up.
The simple four steps above provided half the sums of foursquare 666 in quadrants of 36, including 6 x 111. A central cross of 418. AND a pertinent arrangement of Tarot cards in a blending of Macro/Micro. All of this instantly, from the above four. How much toying again?"
A ton of toying. First, you groundlessly assumed one randomly-chosen verse was talking about tarot cards, then you came up with a way of arranging them and adding up the numbers – arbitrarily choosing to make a graph out of them, and then you arbitrarily chose to make “squares” out of the results of that, and you found – in the midst of all of those arbitrary selections and calculations – numbers important to you and/or the system in which you are working.
That’s nothing but toying with numbers…there’s no justification for your arbitrary choices in the Book itself, and -- if this particular set of arbitrary choices didn't yield an interesting result -- you would have been free to keep arbitrarily interpreting the same passages in different ways and playing with numbers until you did get an interesting result.
Which is precisely what makes it not interesting.
"3. "It only means something to you because it meant something to AC.""
For the record, you’re both misquoting and misreading me here. What I said was: "you're eventually going to get numbers that are meaningful to you, even if they are meaningful to you because they meant something to Crowley."
What I meant was that your point, "But these numbers meant something to other people, like Crowley and other occultists!" doesn't change anything. Regardless of the reason you think these numbers are important, they are still generated through the same arbitrary means that I objected to above and to which you have not sufficiently responded.
"If your suggesting by "playing", that I kept at it, with other various interpretations and ideas, for example of what the directions meant, how does that make null and void the results?"
As I explained above, when you’re just trying out different arbitrary “sets of directions,” what you’re doing is trying out all kinds of ways of playing with numbers that have practically no basis at all in the text in question.
Eventually, you’re going to get results that seem impressive. And that's precisely what makes them not impressive.
" If you were right, and it was so easy to just create a solution such as this out of thin air, why hasn't anyone?"
There is no end of people with super-duper “solutions” to Liber AL riddles. Surely you’ll say that their results aren’t as impressive as yours, and they’ll say that yours aren’t as impressive as theirs. Honestly, to me, it’s all a bunch of silly noodling.
"4. "No valid grounds for a being able to predict the future, or for AC not being able to consciously design this puzzle."
No valid grounds? How about your "critical thinking skills"? Explain how you justify this claim?"
Because you were claiming that something had created a number puzzle and that you had solved it...nothing about that claim implies that the author of the puzzle could see the future, and nothing about it implies that there is some kind of "Divine Providence."
Those are both complete non-sequiturs on your part.
Even if we grant your claims that there really is a consciously-designed puzzle here and that the author of these puzzles couldn't be a normal human -- for which I see no support whatsoever -- it still wouldn't imply that the author could see the future or that there was Divine Providence.
You can have a go at trying to explain why these things necessarily follow from your claim.
"Explain how YOU think chance can produce a complex design of symbolic consistency, TO MOST OCCULTISTS."
Because a person can play number games with any sufficiently long text, especially if he just randomly interprets parts of the text to be talking about other systems like the tarot.
Some of those number games will yield cool results, but it tells us nothing about the original text.
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If one gives you a riddle say, for example "what is greater than God, worse than the devil, rich people don't want it, poor people have it, and if you eat it you'll die?"
Its vague, just clues one has to piece together to solve it, that's the point of a riddle, or cipher. When we solve it, by saying Oh - its "nothing!" Then, looking back at those puzzling clues make perfect sense, and you have no "doubt". My original point was these riddles pointed me in the right direction, to me at least, and the Book is to be taken as unique to all, it was a specific set of directions, based on what I saw them to be.
Is it not strange, or rather very unlikely, that my interpretation led to such a startling result? Again, which you simple breeze over and ignored, you discount the EASE of which it is revealed. Yes, I did try other methods, but, again, your argument this will eventually produce such results is absurd. That may work as an explanation if I was going way out on a limb with my interpretation, my methods unreasonable and complex, and unagreed upon as logical, but they aren't.
Again, it is my argument that, so what if I used trial and error, that in fact goes against your theory, as there was at least failed attempts to "find" anything, no patterns I "wanted to see" found. It seems rather illogical to deny a solution based on the fact one searched tor it, as absurd as refusing the above answer to the riddle given. The solution must be then judged on ITS own merits, in how logical, and sound its technique was, and how fitting the results. The same reason applies to the simplified analogy of the solution to the riddle above. We know it was the "right" answer based on if it makes sense in the context, and not how long they took, or their trial and error in figuring it out. In fact, it would be impossible to solve a riddle without "toying", and how would we know we were right? Yet, of course once the answer is "found" we "know it".
There was ONE foundational verse, or "direction" that led to this result, and that was the "pasting the sheets". It is perfectly logical to take these as the pages of the Book of Thoth, or Nuit's "Book", which in Liber L, she even uses the phrase "my book". Not too much of a stretch. Many Thelemites agree with Frater Achad's "key" to the Book of the Law - "Al", and do we deny this, and why not? Why was THAT considered, even by AC, well after parting ways with him, to be valid? Whether or not anyone excepts it is not important, the important point is they obviously disagree with your point here, since THAT "solution" was based on the same sort of reasoning.
This result, even though there are many "English Qabalah" solutions, stands apart in that it is backed up by numerous verses in similarities, as well as the universal workability and numerical consistency. Many of the EQ systems seem to have a whole other set of number symbolism, yet this aligned with what is already established. Besides, who cares if there are? This does not preclude this idea anyway.
As I said, I predicted your excuse, and that's what it is, because you cannot produce this "delusion" yourself. You wont, because you cant, you cannot produce or create ANYTHING in this straight forward and logical a manner, nor with as much consistency, with the two great Thelemic numbers. In addition, it being relevant and including coincidentally the two great systems used by AC - Enochian and the Tarot.
If it is impossible to at all come close, with another example, then how can it simply be a mental construct, or some pattern easily came up with by "toying long enough"? BTW, I found this after TWO attempts, one evening in about an hour. Not a whole lot of hours, days, weeks, months, or years "playing around" to discover it. So your flat out wrong there. Most of the supporting verses I quote came well AFTER I discovered the numbers, and then I realized it was further supported. One verse, one hour. Years were spent simply on understanding it, and further exploration, but the basic idea came quickly.
It wasn't me flipping through pages, adding up words, or trying various approaches to various verses buddy. I didn't even try to "solve" anything, except when the idea popped in when reading about the "sheets", that what if it was talking about the pages of the Book of Thoth? So this imaginary fantasy of yours, that I was toying around like that is not at all what happened.
One last point, the whole Tablet actually is created in TWO steps, and the 666 results etc., really do not come into play.
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Apply Tarot sequence to English.
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Divide in half and add.
That generates the blending of the cards, and the Tablet. Yes, of COURSE I decided to create a Tablet, what else, in this Tarot arrangement is suggested otherwise? I was inspired by the further words "paste" and "behold", one doesn't need much to "get" what this set up could be doing (dividing by 5 & 6). In any event, regardless, the fact I was inspired to try something, is a personal influence the verses had on me, that led to an objective result with a very valid and reasonable outcome.
Your argument is strangely centered only on my methods and chance at obtaining it, and not the actual product. Is there an argument on the actual Tablet itself? I feel the Tablet has a wealth of interesting details that point to a great depth of meaning, all further in alignment with Thelema.
Your argument that I simply "found what I wanted" is weak based on the limited amount if steps, AND time involved, AND how a persons could "manipulate" these results to be what they wanted. Yes, 666, is important to occultists, but I think it is very unlikely TWO of the great Thelemic numbers just pop up in a calculation TOGETHER, which just happen to also pop up in the BOL.
These factors happen TOGETHER, within ONE calculation.
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666 & 418 arise from a simple calculation together, within the same calculation.
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Both these numbers in combination are recorded and mentioned in the text this "arbitrary" calculation was derived.
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There is still a further, unconnected 666 derived from the three numbers 5,14,23 that relate to these numbers Greek Alphabet orders as well.
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Divisions produced by significant numbers reflecting the connected system to Thelema, the Enochian.
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Tarot combinations, of further symbolic Thelemic harmony.
The above suggest something highly highly unlikely, and I say impossible to occur taken in conjunction. The statistical probability must be so unlikely that they demonstrate the proof I'm asserting.
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@Jason R said
"There was ONE foundational verse, or "direction" that led to this result, and that was the "pasting the sheets". It is perfectly logical to take these as the pages of the Book of Thoth"
There's nothing in the text to suggest that this refers to the tarot, that (even if it were a reference to the tarot) it's a reference to the major arcana plus the four suits, that it's an instruction to lay out the cards as a grid, that it's an instruction to assign numbers to the cards, that it's an instruction to "reduce" these numbers, that it's an instruction to add them, that it's an instruction to produce "squares" and a "tablet."
All of those things are incredibly arbitrary choices that have nothing to do with the original verse.
You took one vague phrase, which could be twisted into lots of different sets of instructions, chose one of these sets of instructions, and, after performing operations with numbers under one version of that set, produced a bunch of numbers that were significant to Crowley. All of that tells us nothing about the original vague phrase.
I think that you and I have gone about as far as we can go on this point. Unless you have anything new to add, we'll just have to let readers make up their own minds what your number games say -- if anything -- about the Book of the Law.
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@Los said
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@Jason R said
"There was ONE foundational verse, or "direction" that led to this result, and that was the "pasting the sheets". It is perfectly logical to take these as the pages of the Book of Thoth"There's nothing in the text to suggest that this refers to the tarot, that (even if it were a reference to the tarot) it's a reference to the major arcana plus the four suits, that it's an instruction to lay out the cards as a grid, that it's an instruction to assign numbers to the cards, that it's an instruction to "reduce" these numbers, that it's an instruction to add them, that it's an instruction to produce "squares" and a "tablet."
All of those things are incredibly arbitrary choices that have nothing to do with the original verse.
You took one vague phrase, which could be twisted into lots of different sets of instructions, chose one of these sets of instructions, and, after performing operations with numbers under one version of that set, produced a bunch of numbers that were significant to Crowley. All of that tells us nothing about the original vague phrase.
I think that you and I have gone about as far as we can go on this point. Unless you have anything new to add, we'll just have to let readers make up their own minds what your number games say -- if anything -- about the Book of the Law."
Oh except the further clues that clearly mention the English Alphabet (you know "ORDER & VALUE"), and further "keys" that helped unlock it, you know, the ones on the page of the original Ms., with a strange GRAPH drawn on it as well? Hmmm, interesting, a GRAPH on the page discussing "keys" (clues) to a puzzle.
Of course the verse was the main foundation, or starting point for the idea, refined easily by what other clues were given. Wasn't hard, and the obvious suggestion one gets from this idea is BLENDING the 5 & 6, since of course the Tarot is divided up onto two halves as such. Doesn't take a genius really to put it together.
You STILL, I see avoid my main point I explained; which is how the factors described (regardless of my interpretation) could just be chance? Statistical probability that such a logical, reasonable, solution to the riddle, could produce in ONE calculation:
- 666,418, & 111
- 5,14,23 at same time as above numbers being the order numbers for Greek letters totalling to 666
- That these numbers are all in Liber L together, as in this single calculation result.
- And at same instant have complete Thelemic symbolic consistency.
- Resemble the familiar divisions bore out by these numbers to the Enochian scheme.
AND once again, remind everyone, you STILL refuse (and cannot) give me even ONE comparable example of this so called contrived, arbitrary, imaginary "number game."Plus it DOES provide much to the elucidation of Liber L., starting with THIS TABLET being the "secret house", "one palace" with "four gates", "a secret fourfold word", and a EQ! Its ALL right there if you look.
Just not so easy is it bud? Yes, I'm sure they can decide. Thanks again!
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@Jason R said
"You STILL, I see avoid my main point I explained; which is how the factors described (regardless of my interpretation) could just be chance?"
Any result would have been equally unlikely, as I said in my first response above. We've established that your method isn't an instruction from the Book itself -- it's just something you pulled out of the air that was sort of inspired by a strained reading of "sheets" as "tarot cards" and by pulling a bunch of ideas randomly out of other parts of the Book and by making up a lot of stuff.
So what you've presented is that you found some arbitrary way of putting numbers together. It so happens that this particular arbitrary way of putting numbers together yields other numbers that Crowley found significant. What are the odds that this arbitrary way of putting numbers together would yield that result? Exactly the same as the odds that it would yield numbers that Crowley didn't find significant.
"AND once again, remind everyone, you STILL refuse (and cannot) give me even ONE comparable example of this so called contrived, arbitrary, imaginary "number game.""
And I continue to refuse, on the grounds that it's unnecessary for me to waste the time and energy in order to demonstrate a point that should be perfectly obvious from the above.
"Yes, I'm sure [readers] can decide."
They certainly can.
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@Los said
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@Jason R said
"You STILL, I see avoid my main point I explained; which is how the factors described (regardless of my interpretation) could just be chance?"Any result would have been equally unlikely, as I said in my first response above. We've established that your method isn't an instruction from the Book itself -- it's just something you pulled out of the air that was sort of inspired by a strained reading of "sheets" as "tarot cards" and by pulling a bunch of ideas randomly out of other parts of the Book and by making up a lot of stuff.
So what you've presented is that you found some arbitrary way of putting numbers together. It so happens that this particular arbitrary way of putting numbers together yields other numbers that Crowley found significant. What are the odds that this arbitrary way of putting numbers together would yield that result? Exactly the same as the odds that it would yield numbers that Crowley didn't find significant.
"AND once again, remind everyone, you STILL refuse (and cannot) give me even ONE comparable example of this so called contrived, arbitrary, imaginary "number game.""
And I continue to refuse, on the grounds that it's unnecessary for me to waste the time and energy in order to demonstrate a point that should be perfectly obvious from the above.
"Yes, I'm sure [readers] can decide."
They certainly can."
LOL
Ok. SO according to your logic, its just as likely I could have arrived at the numbers 876, 456, 543. BUT, it JUST so happened of course, I guess I'm lucky and should go to Vegas, because I got 666, 418, & 111. COOL!
Same exact chance of ANY number from my "strained interpretation" but I got 666 etc. Oh yeah AND of course ALL the other things that are NOT numbers, but certainly consistent, like particular Tarot combinations at certain spots, oh and the OTHER Greek letters also by chance jumping on board. Jack pot!
Explain it oh so well. Nothing to see here folks, Los says I could have gotten any number just the same, so yeah. I know, it all makes sense, but he says its a stretch, so technically these numbers shouldn't be here.
Yeah anyway, of course I know you wont provide an example. I knew that from the beginning. You cant. Period, because its impossible for you to, and all you have is your "same chance as any other numbers" explanation, and hope people buy it. So your trying to say if we had few weird dice able to produce any number, you want people to believe I just rolled 666, 418, 111, 36, 25, 56, 5, 14, 23, (and many many more) on top of the coincidence of the Tarot being divided into micro / macro.
Reminder, if it were easy, and so easily manipulated or easy to find a pattern folks, trust me HE WOULD HAVE, and gloated about it. He can write long long posts, but cant provide one example of how his claim works. He cant because its BS. Period.
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@kasper81 said
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@Jason R said
""Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"Here is my proof in short.
My assertion is that it is well beyond chance, that by my following the riddles in Liber L, (and my ideas being reasonable) that I would discover particular Thelemic numbers arranged symbolically. I believe this is proof of an intelligence directing the events of man.
.""
93 Jason
I like your code. You could start writing an ebook, patent it, try and make some money out of it maybeThis is a good debate where we are asked to compare ourselves to our local catholic priests who refuse their altar-boys to dare to look into the tabernacle, nevertheless I say 93 to ye all and myself. It's a good exercise to wield such magick and then to sharpen thine Ruach (as AC said we should) and be happy to explain it all away for thyself too. This is cerebral flexibility: stretching our powers and expanding our horizons as we are instructed to do in Liber O
what if I said to you that the number 213 was about to become a significant part of your life from now on? Ye shall see this special mystic number on car licence plates, bank statements, at work, in books, bar codes, in magazines, everywhere?"
93 Kasper
Wow thank you! I admit I'm surprised you like it!
Listen, I do not deny the strength of suggestion, or that if a number becomes important that you wont see it everywhere. That happens ALL the time. So I agree with the fact we CAN fall into a trap of seeing or believing what we want. There's no doubt about that.
However just because that's possible, does NOT automatically mean EVERYTHING is a self delusion. The above number code is pretty simple, straight forward, and reasonable. It doesn't ask the student to go out on some wild limb to have it make sense. It makes perfect sense from the start and even MORE sense the more one looks into it.
Also, yes while its true the numbers in this code are important only because us occultists or others made them so, its STILL unlikely that ALL of these various significant numbers should miraculously align TOGETHER at the same time. An example would be something maybe like noticing ALL the license plates around you on the freeway all of a sudden being 666,418,111,36,25,6,50, etc etc lol. Crappy example but you get the idea. Its not just ONE number, its a whole CRAP load together out of one calculation, falling into a coherent symbolic whole. THAT is impossible in my book.
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What I present here is different from results of pure chance. Its different based on the fact the results are immediately significant, without layering meaning unto them. More than ONE significant and easily recognizeable result is found at the same time, and they all are positioned together in a relevant symbolic relationship that itself holds meaning.
Here's an example using only a small part of this solution, to demonstrate the significant symbolic relationships that occur at the same instant.
We find a Tablet that yeilds significant easily recognizeable numbers dividing this Tablet into five divisions, reflecting the Enochian. Lets take just the four quarters as an example:
**1. These four quarters easily reflect the Enochisn system of the four elemental Watchtowers.
- These quarters are seen usually (as in the Enochian system) as "Solar gates", solar quadrants, and this Tablets quadrants are composed of 36 squares each.
36 is the square of 6, and is also the number of squares in the planatery magic square of the Sun.
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This 36 squared "Solar gate", also happens to fittingly total to 666. 666 is of course a solar number, and is 6 on the grand scale. So far everything symbolically lines up, perfectly.
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The total of 666 in each of these four solar quadrants is arrived at by adding 6 horizontal lines that are 14 14 14 23 23 23 = 111. This means we arrive at the well known Thelemic number, 666, by the numerical expression of 6 × 111, yet another significant Thelemic idea. This formula reflects the words AUM HA, which of course are in Liber L.
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The repeated numbers that total 666 in each quadrant are 14 & 23. Both reduce to 5, and 14 + 23 = 37 "Mans Crown" as well as "Behold!".**
If we are to believe that this is "luck" or "chance" alone, just taking into account just a few of the results; we would have to believe the below variables aligned by chance at the same time:
**666 in four quadrants + 666 in 36 squares (36 is square of 6) + 6 × 111 reflecting AUM HA + 666 "foursquare" around a central cross of 418 + 14 & 23 = 37 "Behold!" **
The above is simply a few of the things that happen together, that have immediate Thelemic symbolic meaning. They all fit together, and each makes perfect sense in their relationship with the other. Another example is having 418 within the center cross, a number that represents the blending of the macrocosm and microcosm, a fitting number for a central cross that literally blends the macro / micro cards of the Tarot.
I have never heard, nor seen anywhere, (at least nothing that wasn't intentionally created to have such inherent harmony in symbols) that by chance has such consistent symbolic harmony. To anyone who believe this is simply "finding patterns in chaos", that it is simply blind chance, I challenge them to produce something comparable. So far, predictably, there's been no evidence this is even possible.
The fact is its impossible to do with such ease as this solution. Remember, there are only four steps.
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Attribute the Tarot "order" to the English Alphabet.
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Fold at Macro / Micro "right to left & top to bottom"
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Reduce.
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Add into a graph of 169 squares.
The above is HALF the equation, that yeilds half the sums of the above mentioned numbers and results.
If one reads Liber L with this Tablet in mind, as a "secret house", or "one palace", or "war" being VAR "war" (207 Resh + Zain), it all starts to make sense, and verses that seemed obscure start to yeild a deeper - richer meaning.