"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
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@landis said
"Isn't one of the hallmarks of a religion arguing over canonical issues? See The Essence of Thelema topic."
FUNNY THRICE
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@Carrot_Childe said
""He indicated that his sparse note at the time of dictation"
Hang on a minute! The note was scribbled in pencil. Since Crowley's description of items in the room excludes a pencil, I think it reasonable to assume that the note was added later."
The "sparse note" being the word "Unity" in pen - not being literally dictated by Aiwass.
You seem to assume in your argument that every single word in ink was spoken by Aiwass...
"As previously noted - Aiwass is corrected (illegally) by Crowley, who is then (illegally) corrected by "yours truly." Deal with it!
"Oh, I see! Your interpreration of what was and was not literally spoken by Aiwass leads you to believe that you have the right to correct those words you believe Crowley "illegally" added... Because to your mind, they're not really Aiwass' words anyway...
I'm going to refrain from immediate reaction to that and let that marinate for a while...
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I'm not usually one to advertise or anything, so please don't see this as an advertisement.
I'm aware that many people here may not frequent the boards on lashtal.com and vice versa.
As such, I just wanted to note that a really full, comprehensive, and logical argument has been posted recently, in favor of the "fill" position. The owner of lashtal.com has decided to give it its own space on the website, and it may be viewed here.
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Thank you for sharing the link, it's a great read, and nice to see all the available evidence laid out and weighed so clearly and carefully.
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Yes, that clarifies much and explains versions and dates instead of merely citing them. That's definitely the best argument, wrapped in a very clear explanation that presents both sides.
I concede that much of what I've written missed some facts. This really clears it all up.
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The question that the 'kill me' supporters now need to address (but cannot) is:
How do you justify the two typo theory?
With what evidence do you justify the two typo theory?Until these questions are addressed, then the 'fill me' scholarly consensus will remain in the lead on this issue.
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(Hi. I'm new here
)The scholarly or texutal historical approach indisputably favors "fill me". This was HB's own opinion when he changed the Paraphrase from "kill me" to "fill me" in Book Four (1994 and following), and perhaps as early as 1983, in The Holy Books of Thelema (p. 250), attributed to Hymenaeus Alpha but the scholarship of which is generally held to be by William Breeze. As HB, he alludes to it in the final paragraph of his justification:
"“The Great Invocation” and the Paraphrase were both “corrected” by yours truly in Magick (Liber ABA) (1994 and later editions) to change their original readings of "kill me" to “fill me”—a woefully misguided attempt to make these non-Class A texts agree with what I had every reason to assume was the correct reading in Liber Legis. I think I originally picked up the “fill me” version by “picking up” (a term of art for cutting and pasting from another electronic document) part of the Paraphrase from Liber CCXX to save time, and failed to catch the different wording. In a later revision I decided to let it stand, and just annotated it as such, thinking that one of the readings had to be wrong, and it couldn’t be the Class A, could it?"
The only thing that has changed in the scholarly debate since then is the discovery of Crowley's note "K" in the Windram ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. Obviously this marginal note only shows that Crowley wanted to change the reading here. But if it shows anything beyond that, is speculation. HB argues that Crowley would have written it to correct it in the light of the Vellum Book, and that the marginal note must therefore be placed in 1912, when Crowley was preparing for the publication of the account of the reception of the Book of the Law in "The Temple of Solomon the King" for Equinox I(7), which included the first publication of the "Paraphrase of the Inscriptions" on the stele as an independent poem.
I find nothing to object to in HB's argument for the dating of the marginalium, but I find it difficult to accept the theory that the correction implies that the original reading of the paraphrase was "kill me", and that therefore Crowley erred in the manuscript of Liber L and the typist erred in typing the poem from the Vellum Book, or ignored the reading of the Vellum Book in favor of the manuscript on a whim (especially if the typist typed the Vellum Book form, he would have no reason to consider the manuscript's hastily written "fill me" as more authoritative than the book with the entire poem in it, and except for glancing at the manuscript to know how much of the poem to include, there is no reason why the typist would have looked again at it, rather than the poem itself in the Vellum Book and the next verse, verse 38). The textual evidence points to the original paraphrase having been "fill me", and that "kill me" was a subsequent revision. This also explains why the paraphrase as it was published in 1912 also has other differences from the usage in the Book of the Law.
Everything seems to point to Crowley's having continued to revise his paraphrase after the reception of the Book of the Law. The spelling "Ankh-af-na-khonsu" in the manuscript, as opposed to "Ankh-f-n-knonsu" in the 1912 paraphrase is the most glaring example, but it lends weight to the idea that Crowley changed an original "fill me", soundly attested in 1904, to "kill me" sometime thereafter (in time to be included in the Great Invocation, for example.) .
An absence-of-evidence argument for continued revision is the lack of quotes from the reverse of the stele in the Book of the Law, while they are quoted in their entirety in the Great Invocation. Given the importance of the stele as the key of the revelation, I suspect Aiwass would have found a way to work the poem on the reverse into the Book of the Law as well, had it been ready. The difference in the titles of the two sides - the obverse reading "Inscriptions upon the obverse" and the reverse reading "Hieroglyphs of the 11 lines", also points to a difference in time between the compositions (in addition to the revision of the spelling of Ankh-f-n-khonsu and the "fill" to "kill"). The former word "Inscriptions" was notably changed in Crowley's proofs of The Giant's Thumb, which HB recently provided for us. This shows indisputably that Crowley continued to revise his paraphrase of the stele.
Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904. In other words, what Crowley wrote in 1904 was what was in the paraphase as of April 10, 1904, the words "fill me", and only later did he change it to "kill me", for whatever reason he liked (since it was a work in progress, his own poem). He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it.
And so should we.
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93, That's a very well written and concise summary, Belmurru. Thanks. I've enjoyed reading your debates on Lashtal too. I'm quite the fan.
93 93/93. -
@belmurr said
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Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904.... He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it."I concur, and I'm very happy to see the detailed presentation of the textual argument. As a scholar, my current studies have included marginalia, particularly as a means of helping to understand the mind and intent of an auctor. While they are important, as they reflect the individual reader's personal emotions or insights - it is a long loong leap to reading any kind of intent into them, especially when there's no "outward" directed instructions to accompany them. As far as I can call it, HB's analysis is a blatant case of wanting very badly to read something into the textual situation that just isn't there.
It will be interesting to see where it goes from here...though I'm very thankful that the matter for me is settled for now and I can sit on the sidelines for the rest of it.
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93, This is just a quick note to say that there is a new community webpage on Facebook called 'Let it Fill me', and unless participants violate FB regulations about abusive behavior then it will be a censorship free community (unlike some others I could think of).
I think if you follow this link it should work... www.facebook.com/pages/Let-it-fill-me/253134744759426
A.'. 93 93/93.
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@belmurr said
"Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904. In other words, what Crowley wrote in 1904 was what was in the paraphase as of April 10, 1904, the words "fill me", and only later did he change it to "kill me", for whatever reason he liked (since it was a work in progress, his own poem). He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it."
Changing “fill” to “kill” substantially differs from changing “Ankh-af-na-khonsu" to "Ankh-f-n-knonsu" or “Inscriptions” to “Hieroglyphs.” So, categorizing Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema as a “pattern of revising the paraphrase” downplays the significance of the discovery.
It is important to keep in mind that Crowley’s position on the “longstanding textual uncertainty” of "fill" versus "kill" was unknown until the discovery of his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema. The significance of the correction is that it clearly shows his position on “fill” versus “kill” within one document. It directly addresses the uncertainty, in Crowley’s handwriting, in favor of KILL.
If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.
What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?
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It's not that people don't understand. They just disagree that the evidence should be weighted, or interpreted as you suggest.
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It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant."
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@he atlas itch said
"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""
If you weren't interpreting, you would have nothing to say or think about it. Everybody is interpreting. Everybody is attributing meaning. That's how we function. Facts have no intrinsic meaning, nor relationship to each other, etc. We each add that.
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@he atlas itch said
"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""
Really? Read again.
@he atlas itch said
"If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.
What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"Interpretation. (Plus, you called it a "fact" which is more interesting as an indicator of your labels.)
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@he atlas itch said
"
@belmurr said
"Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904. In other words, what Crowley wrote in 1904 was what was in the paraphase as of April 10, 1904, the words "fill me", and only later did he change it to "kill me", for whatever reason he liked (since it was a work in progress, his own poem). He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it."Changing “fill” to “kill” substantially differs from changing “Ankh-af-na-khonsu" to "Ankh-f-n-knonsu" or “Inscriptions” to “Hieroglyphs.” So, categorizing Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema as a “pattern of revising the paraphrase” downplays the significance of the discovery.
It is important to keep in mind that Crowley’s position on the “longstanding textual uncertainty” of "fill" versus "kill" was unknown until the discovery of his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema. The significance of the correction is that it clearly shows his position on “fill” versus “kill” within one document. It directly addresses the uncertainty, in Crowley’s handwriting, in favor of KILL.
If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.
What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"
You're coming from the original 'typo' position. You're backing the position that it must have been a typo or even an 'aide memoire' in Liber 220 . But to date, not one of the 'kill me' quickly fans have managed to refute the 'two typo theory' that you were left with after the 'fill me' in the Evocation of Batzabel showed up. If you're now going to theorise about an 'aide memoire' then instead of a typo theory you're advancing a 'two aide memoire' theory. And while the two typos theory is merely beyond credibility the two 'aide memoire' theory is laughable.
What's so difficult to grasp about that?
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@he atlas itch said
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It is important to keep in mind that Crowley’s position on the “longstanding textual uncertainty” of "fill" versus "kill" was unknown until the discovery of his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema.
"No, "fill" versus "kill" was not even thought to be a problem at all until the editor(s) of versions of the Paraphrase from 1983 onward decided it was a problem that had to be decided one way or the other (and until last month, always decided on "fill me". They should not have touched it).
Crowley wrote both, and used both. He used "fill me" MUCH more than he used "kill me". And he ALWAYS used "fill me" in the published editions of CCXX.
The problem is the search for editorial conformity, when the tradition actually speaks to two versions.
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The significance of the correction is that it clearly shows his position on “fill” versus “kill” within one document. It directly addresses the uncertainty, in Crowley’s handwriting, in favor of KILL.
"The "uncertainty" is a manufactured problem. It turns into an academic issue, which came first, "fill me" or "kill me". "Fill me" wins by priority in time and overwhelming weight of usage.
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If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"
The use of "if so" shows that you're not certain about something you claim as fact. Facts either are or are not, they aren't maybes or ifs. That's interpretation.
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@Alrah said
"But to date, not one of the 'kill me' quickly fans have managed to refute the 'two typo theory' that you were left with after the 'fill me' in the Evocation of Batzabel showed up."
Alrah - I have no idea what you mean by "two typo theory." As far as I’m concerned, the Bartzabel Working or The Giant’s Thumb do not prove anything decisive. They merely add more weight to either “fill” or “kill.” Taken by themselves, they do not indicate which word Crowley really intended. On the other hand, his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema is hard to explain away.
Takamba – Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema overrides his “fill me” in Liber 31 because 1) both comments are in his handwriting 2) the Windram correction occurs later and 3) it is the only textual example where “fill” is clearly corrected in favor of “kill.” Should evidence arise demonstrating that Crowley suffered from multiple personalities, was absurdly absent-minded, or deliberately generated two readings of his paraphrase, I will be happy to amend my understanding of the above facts.
All other published examples of “fill me” or “kill me” could be explained away as typos, bad proofreading, poetic indecisiveness, etc. The reason being, the issue of “fill” versus “kill” is not directly addressed.
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@he atlas itch said
"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""
As I noted above, you betrayed in your former post by the use of "if so" that you are not simply stating a fact, but rather a hypothetical situation in which, if you are interpreting the facts correctly, something follows. You really are trying to interpret "what Crowley really meant" by writing that K in the margin. This whole issue is being caused by overinterpreting what Crowley meant by this marginal note.
If the facts alone are weighed in a balance, and the heaviest wins, then "fill me" wins. It is only when interpretation is allowed unlimited and providential weight, that "kill me" wins.
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@belmurr said
"If the facts alone are weighed in a balance, and the heaviest wins, then "fill me" wins. It is only when interpretation is allowed unlimited and providential weight, that "kill me" wins."
's 'nuff said