"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
Yes, that clarifies much and explains versions and dates instead of merely citing them. That's definitely the best argument, wrapped in a very clear explanation that presents both sides.
I concede that much of what I've written missed some facts. This really clears it all up.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
The question that the 'kill me' supporters now need to address (but cannot) is:
How do you justify the two typo theory?
With what evidence do you justify the two typo theory?Until these questions are addressed, then the 'fill me' scholarly consensus will remain in the lead on this issue.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
(Hi. I'm new here
)The scholarly or texutal historical approach indisputably favors "fill me". This was HB's own opinion when he changed the Paraphrase from "kill me" to "fill me" in Book Four (1994 and following), and perhaps as early as 1983, in The Holy Books of Thelema (p. 250), attributed to Hymenaeus Alpha but the scholarship of which is generally held to be by William Breeze. As HB, he alludes to it in the final paragraph of his justification:
"“The Great Invocation” and the Paraphrase were both “corrected” by yours truly in Magick (Liber ABA) (1994 and later editions) to change their original readings of "kill me" to “fill me”—a woefully misguided attempt to make these non-Class A texts agree with what I had every reason to assume was the correct reading in Liber Legis. I think I originally picked up the “fill me” version by “picking up” (a term of art for cutting and pasting from another electronic document) part of the Paraphrase from Liber CCXX to save time, and failed to catch the different wording. In a later revision I decided to let it stand, and just annotated it as such, thinking that one of the readings had to be wrong, and it couldn’t be the Class A, could it?"
The only thing that has changed in the scholarly debate since then is the discovery of Crowley's note "K" in the Windram ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. Obviously this marginal note only shows that Crowley wanted to change the reading here. But if it shows anything beyond that, is speculation. HB argues that Crowley would have written it to correct it in the light of the Vellum Book, and that the marginal note must therefore be placed in 1912, when Crowley was preparing for the publication of the account of the reception of the Book of the Law in "The Temple of Solomon the King" for Equinox I(7), which included the first publication of the "Paraphrase of the Inscriptions" on the stele as an independent poem.
I find nothing to object to in HB's argument for the dating of the marginalium, but I find it difficult to accept the theory that the correction implies that the original reading of the paraphrase was "kill me", and that therefore Crowley erred in the manuscript of Liber L and the typist erred in typing the poem from the Vellum Book, or ignored the reading of the Vellum Book in favor of the manuscript on a whim (especially if the typist typed the Vellum Book form, he would have no reason to consider the manuscript's hastily written "fill me" as more authoritative than the book with the entire poem in it, and except for glancing at the manuscript to know how much of the poem to include, there is no reason why the typist would have looked again at it, rather than the poem itself in the Vellum Book and the next verse, verse 38). The textual evidence points to the original paraphrase having been "fill me", and that "kill me" was a subsequent revision. This also explains why the paraphrase as it was published in 1912 also has other differences from the usage in the Book of the Law.
Everything seems to point to Crowley's having continued to revise his paraphrase after the reception of the Book of the Law. The spelling "Ankh-af-na-khonsu" in the manuscript, as opposed to "Ankh-f-n-knonsu" in the 1912 paraphrase is the most glaring example, but it lends weight to the idea that Crowley changed an original "fill me", soundly attested in 1904, to "kill me" sometime thereafter (in time to be included in the Great Invocation, for example.) .
An absence-of-evidence argument for continued revision is the lack of quotes from the reverse of the stele in the Book of the Law, while they are quoted in their entirety in the Great Invocation. Given the importance of the stele as the key of the revelation, I suspect Aiwass would have found a way to work the poem on the reverse into the Book of the Law as well, had it been ready. The difference in the titles of the two sides - the obverse reading "Inscriptions upon the obverse" and the reverse reading "Hieroglyphs of the 11 lines", also points to a difference in time between the compositions (in addition to the revision of the spelling of Ankh-f-n-khonsu and the "fill" to "kill"). The former word "Inscriptions" was notably changed in Crowley's proofs of The Giant's Thumb, which HB recently provided for us. This shows indisputably that Crowley continued to revise his paraphrase of the stele.
Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904. In other words, what Crowley wrote in 1904 was what was in the paraphase as of April 10, 1904, the words "fill me", and only later did he change it to "kill me", for whatever reason he liked (since it was a work in progress, his own poem). He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it.
And so should we.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@belmurr said
"
Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904.... He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it."I concur, and I'm very happy to see the detailed presentation of the textual argument. As a scholar, my current studies have included marginalia, particularly as a means of helping to understand the mind and intent of an auctor. While they are important, as they reflect the individual reader's personal emotions or insights - it is a long loong leap to reading any kind of intent into them, especially when there's no "outward" directed instructions to accompany them. As far as I can call it, HB's analysis is a blatant case of wanting very badly to read something into the textual situation that just isn't there.
It will be interesting to see where it goes from here...though I'm very thankful that the matter for me is settled for now and I can sit on the sidelines for the rest of it.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
93, This is just a quick note to say that there is a new community webpage on Facebook called 'Let it Fill me', and unless participants violate FB regulations about abusive behavior then it will be a censorship free community (unlike some others I could think of).
I think if you follow this link it should work... www.facebook.com/pages/Let-it-fill-me/253134744759426
A.'. 93 93/93.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@belmurr said
"Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904. In other words, what Crowley wrote in 1904 was what was in the paraphase as of April 10, 1904, the words "fill me", and only later did he change it to "kill me", for whatever reason he liked (since it was a work in progress, his own poem). He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it."
Changing “fill” to “kill” substantially differs from changing “Ankh-af-na-khonsu" to "Ankh-f-n-knonsu" or “Inscriptions” to “Hieroglyphs.” So, categorizing Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema as a “pattern of revising the paraphrase” downplays the significance of the discovery.
It is important to keep in mind that Crowley’s position on the “longstanding textual uncertainty” of "fill" versus "kill" was unknown until the discovery of his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema. The significance of the correction is that it clearly shows his position on “fill” versus “kill” within one document. It directly addresses the uncertainty, in Crowley’s handwriting, in favor of KILL.
If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.
What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
It's not that people don't understand. They just disagree that the evidence should be weighted, or interpreted as you suggest.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant."
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@he atlas itch said
"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""
If you weren't interpreting, you would have nothing to say or think about it. Everybody is interpreting. Everybody is attributing meaning. That's how we function. Facts have no intrinsic meaning, nor relationship to each other, etc. We each add that.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@he atlas itch said
"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""
Really? Read again.
@he atlas itch said
"If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.
What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"Interpretation. (Plus, you called it a "fact" which is more interesting as an indicator of your labels.)
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@he atlas itch said
"
@belmurr said
"Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904. In other words, what Crowley wrote in 1904 was what was in the paraphase as of April 10, 1904, the words "fill me", and only later did he change it to "kill me", for whatever reason he liked (since it was a work in progress, his own poem). He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it."Changing “fill” to “kill” substantially differs from changing “Ankh-af-na-khonsu" to "Ankh-f-n-knonsu" or “Inscriptions” to “Hieroglyphs.” So, categorizing Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema as a “pattern of revising the paraphrase” downplays the significance of the discovery.
It is important to keep in mind that Crowley’s position on the “longstanding textual uncertainty” of "fill" versus "kill" was unknown until the discovery of his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema. The significance of the correction is that it clearly shows his position on “fill” versus “kill” within one document. It directly addresses the uncertainty, in Crowley’s handwriting, in favor of KILL.
If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.
What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"
You're coming from the original 'typo' position. You're backing the position that it must have been a typo or even an 'aide memoire' in Liber 220 . But to date, not one of the 'kill me' quickly fans have managed to refute the 'two typo theory' that you were left with after the 'fill me' in the Evocation of Batzabel showed up. If you're now going to theorise about an 'aide memoire' then instead of a typo theory you're advancing a 'two aide memoire' theory. And while the two typos theory is merely beyond credibility the two 'aide memoire' theory is laughable.
What's so difficult to grasp about that?
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@he atlas itch said
"
It is important to keep in mind that Crowley’s position on the “longstanding textual uncertainty” of "fill" versus "kill" was unknown until the discovery of his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema.
"No, "fill" versus "kill" was not even thought to be a problem at all until the editor(s) of versions of the Paraphrase from 1983 onward decided it was a problem that had to be decided one way or the other (and until last month, always decided on "fill me". They should not have touched it).
Crowley wrote both, and used both. He used "fill me" MUCH more than he used "kill me". And he ALWAYS used "fill me" in the published editions of CCXX.
The problem is the search for editorial conformity, when the tradition actually speaks to two versions.
"
The significance of the correction is that it clearly shows his position on “fill” versus “kill” within one document. It directly addresses the uncertainty, in Crowley’s handwriting, in favor of KILL.
"The "uncertainty" is a manufactured problem. It turns into an academic issue, which came first, "fill me" or "kill me". "Fill me" wins by priority in time and overwhelming weight of usage.
"
If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"
The use of "if so" shows that you're not certain about something you claim as fact. Facts either are or are not, they aren't maybes or ifs. That's interpretation.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@Alrah said
"But to date, not one of the 'kill me' quickly fans have managed to refute the 'two typo theory' that you were left with after the 'fill me' in the Evocation of Batzabel showed up."
Alrah - I have no idea what you mean by "two typo theory." As far as I’m concerned, the Bartzabel Working or The Giant’s Thumb do not prove anything decisive. They merely add more weight to either “fill” or “kill.” Taken by themselves, they do not indicate which word Crowley really intended. On the other hand, his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema is hard to explain away.
Takamba – Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema overrides his “fill me” in Liber 31 because 1) both comments are in his handwriting 2) the Windram correction occurs later and 3) it is the only textual example where “fill” is clearly corrected in favor of “kill.” Should evidence arise demonstrating that Crowley suffered from multiple personalities, was absurdly absent-minded, or deliberately generated two readings of his paraphrase, I will be happy to amend my understanding of the above facts.
All other published examples of “fill me” or “kill me” could be explained away as typos, bad proofreading, poetic indecisiveness, etc. The reason being, the issue of “fill” versus “kill” is not directly addressed.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@he atlas itch said
"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""
As I noted above, you betrayed in your former post by the use of "if so" that you are not simply stating a fact, but rather a hypothetical situation in which, if you are interpreting the facts correctly, something follows. You really are trying to interpret "what Crowley really meant" by writing that K in the margin. This whole issue is being caused by overinterpreting what Crowley meant by this marginal note.
If the facts alone are weighed in a balance, and the heaviest wins, then "fill me" wins. It is only when interpretation is allowed unlimited and providential weight, that "kill me" wins.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@he atlas itch said
"Should evidence arise demonstrating that Crowley ... deliberately generated two readings of his paraphrase, I will be happy to amend my understanding of the above facts."
I think revision of the Paraphrase is the only rational theory, and that the two readings "fill me" and "kill me" are indeed what he generated. Why is it implausible? It's a poem by Aleister Crowley. I don't understand why anybody should think it unlikely, given the differences between quotes of it in XXXI and the Great Invocation and others (Ankh-af-na-khonsu/Ankh-f-n-khonsu, "To stir me or to still me", titles, capitalizations, "fill me", "kill me", absence of reverse side quotations in the Book of the Law).
Revisions and changes in the Paraphrase can be demonstrated, but the fact remains that he and the typist wrote "fill me" in XXXI and the Cairo typescript. To argue otherwise introduces a theory of error on both of their parts that is simply untenable.
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
belmurru, thanks for your contributions on this.
I believe I said all of this previously, but I do want to focus in on a point that keeps coming up: I don't think what the original poetic paraphrase said has anything to do with the question. In fact, I'm 93% sure that it said "kill." To me, that's irrelevant. To me, any attention spent on that specific question is a distraction and potentially derailing.
To me, the question is: What belongs in Liber Legis? I believe this is "fill" for two specific reasons - only two:
- The best evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that the penciled words "fill me" were written into the manuscript by the Prophet within a couple of days of the dictation, and I consider this as "within the original window of the dictation," on a level comparable to the Scarlet Woman's additions.
- Crowley never changed this in any version of Liber Legis he ever published, even with an accelerated and highly public effort to "get it right." (And the evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that Crowley was aware of the f/k issue proximate to one or more of these editions.)
If I changed my mind on either of these conclusions, I'd have to go back to the start, reassess, and come to a fresh (same or different) conclusion. (For example, if the penciled note were not added until much later, I'd likely conclude that the text of the poetic paraphrase, as it existed on April 10, 1904, mattered. Otherwise, I don't see that it matters at all.)
Based on what is available to me now, and the weight that I give to the various factors, my present conclusion is easy: Obey my prophet, and publish it as "fill."
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
@Jim Eshelman said
"belmurru, thanks for your contributions on this.
I believe I said all of this previously, but I do want to focus in on a point that keeps coming up: I don't think what the original poetic paraphrase said has anything to do with the question. In fact, I'm 93% sure that it said "kill." To me, that's irrelevant. To me, any attention spent on that specific question is a distraction and potentially derailing.
To me, the question is: What belongs in Liber Legis? I believe this is "fill" for two specific reasons - only two:
- The best evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that the penciled words "fill me" were written into the manuscript by the Prophet within a couple of days of the dictation, and I consider this as "within the original window of the dictation," on a level comparable to the Scarlet Woman's additions.
- Crowley never changed this in any version of Liber Legis he ever published, even with an accelerated and highly public effort to "get it right." (And the evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that Crowley was aware of the f/k issue proximate to one or more of these editions.)
If I changed my mind on either of these conclusions, I'd have to go back to the start, reassess, and come to a fresh (same or different) conclusion. (For example, if the penciled note were not added until much later, I'd likely conclude that the text of the poetic paraphrase, as it existed on April 10, 1904, mattered. Otherwise, I don't see that it matters at all.)
Based on what is available to me now, and the weight that I give to the various factors, my present conclusion is easy: Obey my prophet, and publish it as "fill.""
\Like before.... 's 'nuff said
-
On The Great Kill/Fill Debate, I've held back on making any strong statements one way or the other. I did make a preliminary, first impression statement on page 2 of this thread:
www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11896The Outer Head of O.T.O. is making a textual change in digital and physical publications of The Book of the Law published by O.T.O. (Note that I have characterized this as a textual change in publications, not as a textual change in The Book of the Law. The distinction is at least somewhat important.)
The most complete explanation of the decision and its basis is given here: oto-usa.org/static/legi - I encourage anyone interested in this topic to read this explanation thoroughly and carefully. At the very least, I don't think any intelligent discussion of the matter can be carried out without understanding whence it arises.
Though I hope that anyone seriously interested in the subject will read the rest of this post, I'll cut to the punch line now and confirm that College of Thelema and Temple of Thelema will not, at the present time, be making this change in any digital or physical publications of The Book of the Law under our control. If there is ever a time that I order such a change, it will be due to facts not presently available to me.
In order to put my later remarks into context, I need to talk a bit about Bill Breeze. This is partly because I believe there are long-standing rumors and opinions afloat about Bill's and my relationship (especially around my reasons for departing O.T.O.), and I might as well set that matter straight, on the public record; and partly because I'm in a better place than most people (certainly most people on this forum) to talk about him and (at least indirectly) address the question of his motives. (These motives have been questioned by some people who have been critical of the textual change.)
Bottom line: I trust him completely. I don't always agree with him, and I trust him completely (on more or less anything - not just this present issue). I am certain that his editorial decision is an honest, clean decision. It is an expression of the deepest motives of his character, and performed in the context of responsibilities he holds truly sacred. This is an area he just wouldn't fuck around with. - And the explanation he wrote at oto-usa.org/static/legi strikes me as completely authentic to the man I know.
I haven't seen Bill in about 20 years. Nonetheless, I still consider him a friend and, especially, a brother. My resignation from O.T.O. in 1992 had nothing to do with him or any lack of confidence in him as O.T.O.'s leader. I'm substantially responsible for putting him in that office,*** and to this day I have no regrets about that (and would do it again). Although I wish my letter of resignation from O.T.O. had not gone public a few years ago (it was private), anyone who has seen a copy will know why I left (which, in a yes-I-know-it's-too-brief nutshell, is that one path of service had reached its conclusion and I had already been called to another).
[*** About a month before the election, when I was one of only two candidates to be Grady's successor, I learned from Helen Parsons Smith that Bill's name was being entered into consideration. I called him. We had a friendly chat, and I said that if I truly thought he stood a chance of winning, I'd pull my name out of consideration at once - I didn't think that job was my right path. When, on the election weekend, it became clear to me that he would win if I didn't create a split in the "Blue Equinox Faction," I asked that anyone who had planned to vote for me now support Bill. I haven't any information on how well I would have done if I'd remained in the race, and it was an honor to be one of the three candidates; but I do know that, at that point, it was a foregone conclusion who would win. I remain happy with all of that 27 years later.]For several years, and though living thousands of miles apart, Bill and I were much like close roommates. (This is, of course, my assessment looking back; I don't know how he'd characterize it). We were on the phone with lengthy conversations many times most weeks (at a time when long distance charges really meant something!) and more or less knew what was going on in each other's lives and minds much of the time. Heck, he practically feels like an amicably moved-apart ex. (No, the first place your mind went with that was not part of our relationship.
) And we did some really important work together IMHO. I'm proud of what we accomplished.So... my main point is not to praise this particular Caesar, and most certainly isn't to bury him. I just thought that my remarks following would benefit from this context, and thought it about time to put the above on the record.
Returning to oto-usa.org/static/legi ...
I don't contest any of the main facts that were cited. As usual, there is a range of certainty in things that we "know" - what the Emerald Tablet distinguishes as (a) True without falsehood, (b) certain, and (c) most true. - Or, from another approach, there are agreed upon facts; ideas implicitly but not explicitly present in those facts; informed speculation by qualified people; and other speculation.
I do not contest the main facts. And I, like Hymenaeus Beta (and many others), approach this from the ethical commitment to obey Thelema's prophet in the matter. I probably would always yield, on these matters, to any final, certain, uncontroverted evidence of Crowley's clear decision on an ambiguity on The Book of the Law.
H.B. and I do, however, weigh the evidence differently. Were we on the same jury, I think we'd have no trouble agreeing on the facts, and our deliberations would spiral around what weight to give to the respective facts.
I'm going to summarize what I believe is H.B.'s threshold argument. However, there are so many elements and nuances that I encourage anyone to read his full presentation for yourself, and not be misled by my reductionism.
Crowley's personal, extra-special copy of Thelema (which was the first publication of Liber L.) contained important pencil corrections by him. One of these was a pencil correction of the letter "f" to the letter "k" in the passage under discussion. Crowley evidently made this correction sometime between mid-1909 and the end of 1912. He then published The Book of the Law many times in the decades following, never changing that one letter in the publication.
H.B.'s argument (as I read it) is substantially that the book wherein this correction was penned should be regarded (for various reasons given) as Crowley's master correction volume, and that the change didn't occur in subsequent publications of Liber L. because of poor editorial and proofing habits and procedures.
I weigh the facts differently. I rate the notes in Crowley's personal copy of Thelema as quite important. I also take it as quite important that he never saw fit (even with poor editorial practices) to ensure that this matter was corrected. This is especially true with the 1938 edition which, despite its numerous acknowledged errors, was touted by Crowley as his "finally got it right" edition - a fact pivotal to his public prediction of the greatest of wars nine months later (made nine months before Hitler invaded Poland). I think there are several remaining questions. Based on evidence presently available to me, I must conclude that the final word on this matter by the Prophet is to leave it as previously published.
Some asides...
The Resh issue is a distraction. It's a spin-off of the main issue, and most likely to stir emotional responses. Along the same lines as H.B., I think that as long as we take standing instructions as particular examples of, "perform the adoration that is taught thee by thy Superior," we don't have to mingle that issue with this more fundamental one.
I also want to say something about the issue of religious freedom. This is an issue where H.B. and I deeply agree in principle, and have nearly opposite views in practice. He has said many times (my paraphrase from memory) that to avoid sectarianism or denominationalism in Thelema, and maximize the sovereign right of any individual regarding their own relationship with Liber Legis, the Tunis Comment provides the key, and people should just not discuss the Book or its meaning. Having similar motives, I strongly hold that the only way to prevent religious tyranny and to maximize the sovereign right of individuals to their own understanding of the Book, is to discuss it constantly, to actively exchange views, insights, and responses in a spirit of tolerance that doesn't require anyone to agree with you; that is, a cultural of tolerance and active sharing on the matter. - I mention this because the broader matter was touched on late in the blog piece.
There are two more pieces of evidence I'd like to see, things that could weigh into any future decisions I make as Visible Head of Temple of Thelema.
First: I wish someone could tell me when the pencil notes on 3:37 were added to the manuscript. This is an important matter for proper exegesis. It seems clear to me that they were added at some time after the original dictation was taken, at least soon enough after for Crowley to pick up a different writing instrument, and no later than when the typescripts were made that were the basis of Crowley's 1904 Christmas gifts. It seems that the time frame is anything from a few minutes later to a (very) few months later, and the exact timing might weigh into my views. We recognize at least some post-dictation adjustments, most pointedly Rose's clarification of two passages, which occurred some (presumably short) time after the dictation. (The next few minutes? The next few days? Weeks or months later?) There is some gray area here, therefore, in terms of what should be considered as part of the "original manuscript."
[EDIT: As remarked below, HB says these typescripts were made before leaving Egypt, i.e., immediately after the dictation - within a few days at most. This almost certainly means that all the penciled corrections (verse numbers, "fill me" note) were written within days of his having written the poetic paraphrases, and while he had the original paraphrase in his immediate possession. If this is, indeed, when and how this all occurred, then it strengthens my sense that "fill me" is as authentic a part of the original manuscript as are Rose's additions.]
Second: There is a Crowley passage I previously mentioned, but can't find. It thought it was in Equinox of the Gods or the New Comment, but couldn't find it in either place. As I referenced it earlier,
Crowley addressed this in the New Comment (or somewhere - I'd have to go dig it out). He acknowledged that something in his memory was insisting the word should be "kill," he was emotionally defiant in the face of the manuscript, and yet he then yielded and published the manuscript faithfully as it had come to him - and it said "fill." If that's his conclusion ion the 1920s, it's more than good enough for me. (If this becomes "a thing," I'll have to dig all that out sometime.)
I'd like to weigh this passage into my assessment, and won't do it until I have the passage - so I know that memory isn't playing tricks on how I remember it. That is, I want to be able to quote it accurately and in context. It's in something that I read sometime in the last four decades (which includes essentially everything written by Crowley and much correspondence, etc.). I think this passage may be important to understanding the final will and word of the Prophet on this matter. If anyone can find the passage, I'd appreciate you passing it along to me.
Thank you for reading thus far.
First, let me clarify some points:
- It makes no difference to me whether another Thelemite decides on “fill” or “kill.”
- HB’s editorial decisions do not affect my spiritual evolution.
That noted, I have been following this fill/kill online debate with keen interest for other much larger reasons…
I have explained my reasons on why Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema overrides his penciled “fill me” in Liber 31, but proponents of the “fill me” camp clearly disagree...
Perhaps it would be more to the point to ask proponents of the “fill me” camp what they see in Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema?
93 93/93.