"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"

Jim Eshelman

@he atlas itch said

"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""

If you weren't interpreting, you would have nothing to say or think about it. Everybody is interpreting. Everybody is attributing meaning. That's how we function. Facts have no intrinsic meaning, nor relationship to each other, etc. We each add that.

Takamba

@he atlas itch said

"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""

Really? Read again.

@he atlas itch said

"If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.
What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"

Interpretation. (Plus, you called it a "fact" which is more interesting as an indicator of your labels.)

Alrah

@he atlas itch said

"
@belmurr said
"Given the pattern of revising the paraphrase, I think that the evidence of the original manuscript of Liber L and the typescript made from it far outweight the significance of a marginal note made probably as late as 1912, from what was almost certainly a revision of the paraphrase made after April 10, 1904. In other words, what Crowley wrote in 1904 was what was in the paraphase as of April 10, 1904, the words "fill me", and only later did he change it to "kill me", for whatever reason he liked (since it was a work in progress, his own poem). He liked "kill me" more when he wrote the Great Invocation, and, apparently, when he wrote the marginal note in Windram's ΘΕΛΗΜΑ. But he never implemented the change in a printing of Liber CCXX, which strongly suggests he thought better of it."

Changing “fill” to “kill” substantially differs from changing “Ankh-af-na-khonsu" to "Ankh-f-n-knonsu" or “Inscriptions” to “Hieroglyphs.” So, categorizing Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema as a “pattern of revising the paraphrase” downplays the significance of the discovery.

It is important to keep in mind that Crowley’s position on the “longstanding textual uncertainty” of "fill" versus "kill" was unknown until the discovery of his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema. The significance of the correction is that it clearly shows his position on “fill” versus “kill” within one document. It directly addresses the uncertainty, in Crowley’s handwriting, in favor of KILL.

If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.

What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"

You're coming from the original 'typo' position. You're backing the position that it must have been a typo or even an 'aide memoire' in Liber 220 . But to date, not one of the 'kill me' quickly fans have managed to refute the 'two typo theory' that you were left with after the 'fill me' in the Evocation of Batzabel showed up. If you're now going to theorise about an 'aide memoire' then instead of a typo theory you're advancing a 'two aide memoire' theory. And while the two typos theory is merely beyond credibility the two 'aide memoire' theory is laughable.

What's so difficult to grasp about that?

belmurru

@he atlas itch said

"
It is important to keep in mind that Crowley’s position on the “longstanding textual uncertainty” of "fill" versus "kill" was unknown until the discovery of his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema.
"

No, "fill" versus "kill" was not even thought to be a problem at all until the editor(s) of versions of the Paraphrase from 1983 onward decided it was a problem that had to be decided one way or the other (and until last month, always decided on "fill me". They should not have touched it).

Crowley wrote both, and used both. He used "fill me" MUCH more than he used "kill me". And he ALWAYS used "fill me" in the published editions of CCXX.

The problem is the search for editorial conformity, when the tradition actually speaks to two versions.

"
The significance of the correction is that it clearly shows his position on “fill” versus “kill” within one document. It directly addresses the uncertainty, in Crowley’s handwriting, in favor of KILL.
"

The "uncertainty" is a manufactured problem. It turns into an academic issue, which came first, "fill me" or "kill me". "Fill me" wins by priority in time and overwhelming weight of usage.

"
If so, his marginal correction in Windram's Thelema overrides his penciled aide-memoire of "fill me" in Liber 31.

What is so difficult to grasp about this fact?"

The use of "if so" shows that you're not certain about something you claim as fact. Facts either are or are not, they aren't maybes or ifs. That's interpretation.

the atlas itch

@Alrah said

"But to date, not one of the 'kill me' quickly fans have managed to refute the 'two typo theory' that you were left with after the 'fill me' in the Evocation of Batzabel showed up."

Alrah - I have no idea what you mean by "two typo theory." As far as I’m concerned, the Bartzabel Working or The Giant’s Thumb do not prove anything decisive. They merely add more weight to either “fill” or “kill.” Taken by themselves, they do not indicate which word Crowley really intended. On the other hand, his marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema is hard to explain away.

Takamba – Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema overrides his “fill me” in Liber 31 because 1) both comments are in his handwriting 2) the Windram correction occurs later and 3) it is the only textual example where “fill” is clearly corrected in favor of “kill.” Should evidence arise demonstrating that Crowley suffered from multiple personalities, was absurdly absent-minded, or deliberately generated two readings of his paraphrase, I will be happy to amend my understanding of the above facts.

All other published examples of “fill me” or “kill me” could be explained away as typos, bad proofreading, poetic indecisiveness, etc. The reason being, the issue of “fill” versus “kill” is not directly addressed.

belmurru

@he atlas itch said

"It's funny you say that I am "interpreting" when I am only looking at the facts and avoiding speculation on "what Crowley really meant.""

As I noted above, you betrayed in your former post by the use of "if so" that you are not simply stating a fact, but rather a hypothetical situation in which, if you are interpreting the facts correctly, something follows. You really are trying to interpret "what Crowley really meant" by writing that K in the margin. This whole issue is being caused by overinterpreting what Crowley meant by this marginal note.

If the facts alone are weighed in a balance, and the heaviest wins, then "fill me" wins. It is only when interpretation is allowed unlimited and providential weight, that "kill me" wins.

Takamba

@belmurr said

"If the facts alone are weighed in a balance, and the heaviest wins, then "fill me" wins. It is only when interpretation is allowed unlimited and providential weight, that "kill me" wins."

's 'nuff said

belmurru

@he atlas itch said

"Should evidence arise demonstrating that Crowley ... deliberately generated two readings of his paraphrase, I will be happy to amend my understanding of the above facts."

I think revision of the Paraphrase is the only rational theory, and that the two readings "fill me" and "kill me" are indeed what he generated. Why is it implausible? It's a poem by Aleister Crowley. I don't understand why anybody should think it unlikely, given the differences between quotes of it in XXXI and the Great Invocation and others (Ankh-af-na-khonsu/Ankh-f-n-khonsu, "To stir me or to still me", titles, capitalizations, "fill me", "kill me", absence of reverse side quotations in the Book of the Law).

Revisions and changes in the Paraphrase can be demonstrated, but the fact remains that he and the typist wrote "fill me" in XXXI and the Cairo typescript. To argue otherwise introduces a theory of error on both of their parts that is simply untenable.

Jim Eshelman

belmurru, thanks for your contributions on this.

I believe I said all of this previously, but I do want to focus in on a point that keeps coming up: I don't think what the original poetic paraphrase said has anything to do with the question. In fact, I'm 93% sure that it said "kill." To me, that's irrelevant. To me, any attention spent on that specific question is a distraction and potentially derailing.

To me, the question is: What belongs in Liber Legis? I believe this is "fill" for two specific reasons - only two:

The best evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that the penciled words "fill me" were written into the manuscript by the Prophet within a couple of days of the dictation, and I consider this as "within the original window of the dictation," on a level comparable to the Scarlet Woman's additions.
Crowley never changed this in any version of Liber Legis he ever published, even with an accelerated and highly public effort to "get it right." (And the evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that Crowley was aware of the f/k issue proximate to one or more of these editions.)

If I changed my mind on either of these conclusions, I'd have to go back to the start, reassess, and come to a fresh (same or different) conclusion. (For example, if the penciled note were not added until much later, I'd likely conclude that the text of the poetic paraphrase, as it existed on April 10, 1904, mattered. Otherwise, I don't see that it matters at all.)

Based on what is available to me now, and the weight that I give to the various factors, my present conclusion is easy: Obey my prophet, and publish it as "fill."

Takamba

@Jim Eshelman said

"belmurru, thanks for your contributions on this.

I believe I said all of this previously, but I do want to focus in on a point that keeps coming up: I don't think what the original poetic paraphrase said has anything to do with the question. In fact, I'm 93% sure that it said "kill." To me, that's irrelevant. To me, any attention spent on that specific question is a distraction and potentially derailing.

To me, the question is: What belongs in Liber Legis? I believe this is "fill" for two specific reasons - only two:

The best evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that the penciled words "fill me" were written into the manuscript by the Prophet within a couple of days of the dictation, and I consider this as "within the original window of the dictation," on a level comparable to the Scarlet Woman's additions.
Crowley never changed this in any version of Liber Legis he ever published, even with an accelerated and highly public effort to "get it right." (And the evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that Crowley was aware of the f/k issue proximate to one or more of these editions.)

If I changed my mind on either of these conclusions, I'd have to go back to the start, reassess, and come to a fresh (same or different) conclusion. (For example, if the penciled note were not added until much later, I'd likely conclude that the text of the poetic paraphrase, as it existed on April 10, 1904, mattered. Otherwise, I don't see that it matters at all.)

Based on what is available to me now, and the weight that I give to the various factors, my present conclusion is easy: Obey my prophet, and publish it as "fill.""
\

Like before.... 's 'nuff said

the atlas itch

First, let me clarify some points:

It makes no difference to me whether another Thelemite decides on “fill” or “kill.”
HB’s editorial decisions do not affect my spiritual evolution.

That noted, I have been following this fill/kill online debate with keen interest for other much larger reasons…

I have explained my reasons on why Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema overrides his penciled “fill me” in Liber 31, but proponents of the “fill me” camp clearly disagree...

Perhaps it would be more to the point to ask proponents of the “fill me” camp what they see in Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema?

Takamba

@he atlas itch said

"First, let me clarify some points:

It makes no difference to me whether another Thelemite decides on “fill” or “kill.”
HB’s editorial decisions do not affect my spiritual evolution.

That noted, I have been following this fill/kill online debate with keen interest for other much larger reasons…

I have explained my reasons on why Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema overrides his penciled “fill me” in Liber 31, but proponents of the “fill me” camp clearly disagree...

Perhaps it would be more to the point to ask proponents of the “fill me” camp what they see in Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema?"

That's already (and very clearly) been stated.

There's no way to know for sure the intent.
It may have been possibly a "hint" given to Windram for some other reason
The book was given away, so it's value is diminished in regard to calling it "official."
In other further publications of Liber AL, amongst many editorial corrections, this so-called "correction" never happened (that is the greatest weight of evidence).

[Edit] All later editorial corrections to Liber AL (so mentioned before) where to conform with Liber XXXI more so, whereas this so-called "correction" would not conform with Liber XXXI

Bryce Churchill

Inevitably, the response to a particular change like this seems to fall into one of four categories:

People who will not accept whatever the change may be, or fight it, for the sole reason that it's coming from HB/OTO Grand Lodge.
People who look at both sides of the debate and decide that the BOTL should remain as it is and not be changed.
People who look at both sides of the debate and decide that the BOTL verse III:37 should be changed from "fill" to "kill."
People who don't want to review the facts for themselves, would rather leave it up to the authorities to decide for them.

I have a 100% zone of tolerance for #'s 2 & 3, and 0% tolerance for #'s 1 & 4.

To quote Soror Virakam in Book IV, Part I:

"Frater Perdurabo is the most honest of all the great religious teachers. Others have said: "Believe me!" He says:"Don't believe me!" He does not ask for followers; would despise and refuse them. He wants an independent and self-reliant body of students to follow out their own methods of research. If he can save them time and trouble by giving a few useful "tips," his work will have been done to his own satisfaction.

Those who have wished men to believe in them were absurd. A persuasive tongue or pen, or an efficient sword, with rack and stake, produced this "belief," which is contrary to, and destructive of, all real religious experience.

The whole life of Frater Perdurabo is now devoted to seeing that you obtain this living experience of Truth for, by, and in yourselves!"

belmurru

@Bryce Churchill said

"Inevitably, the response to a particular change like this seems to fall into one of four categories:

People who look at both sides of the debate and decide that the BOTL should remain as it is and not be changed.

"

That's a good post, Bryce. I consider myself 2. I have nothing against OTO or its leadership in general, any more than I do with any other organization I am or have been a part of (initiated 1985, inactive since '92).

I do my part to keep the debate alive because I think it is a cathartic moment, a watershed perhaps. I myself was drawn into the debate on the heels of another, almost comical one, about Richard Cole's contention that Crowley fabricated the whole reception story and actually wrote the book in 1906 (I'm sure he's changed his chronology now). This forced me to look into the details of the early evidence for the book more than I had ever done before. I would not have been prepared for this current debate, a much more important one, if I had not first been familiar with what the debate about Cole's ideas had taught me.

I have argued the way I have in order to show that it is not out of a sentimental feeling about "fill me" , nor a motive of spite for Bill Breeze (I admire him tremendously and I profoundly appreciate his work, and I know of no reason why I should feel anything but goodwill towards him, principled disagreement or not), but because it is my honest, scholarly opinion that this change is not justified by the history of the text or the author's attitude towards it. It would be the same with any other text with a similar problem: one marginal correction by the author in a single exemplar of the text in one of its early printings can not be taken as indicative of the author's continual wish to change the text, especially when further printings supervised by the author, over decades, do not show the change nor possess such a marginal correction.

I think this controversy will not go away, however. It will cause another schism in the Order, definitely more significant than that which happened after Grady died. There will be the "Fillers" and the "Killers". The former will never accept what they will see as a defective edition of CCXX.

But as Crowley wisely noted, with greater foresight than was apparent up to last month, the revelation of the Law is "photographically guaranteed" in Liber XXXI. And the Comment tells us that "All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself."

I think that this debate has been the best education I have ever had in the history of the text, and I trust it has been so for anyone else who has followed it closely. It is to HB's credit that he has kept up with it and argued his side, including publishing the relevant proofs of his position (like the manuscript of Cadaveris).

But for me, the evidence clearly points to Crowley's having originally written "fill me" and intended "fill me", and only later, and briefly, preferred "kill me". He never had the printed text changed to reflect this secondary revision of the paraphrase, which stands as the most persuasive evidence of his real intentions.

belmurru

@Jim Eshelman said

"belmurru, thanks for your contributions on this.
"

Thanks for the opportunity to contribute, Jim.

"
I believe I said all of this previously, but I do want to focus in on a point that keeps coming up: I don't think what the original poetic paraphrase said has anything to do with the question. In fact, I'm 93% sure that it said "kill." To me, that's irrelevant. To me, any attention spent on that specific question is a distraction and potentially derailing.
"

I don't understand how you can be so certain that the original paraphrase said "kill" though. Until last month, HB was so certain it should be "fill" that he changed the text of the Paraphrase to read "fill me" in Magick (Liber ABA), in the three editions since 1994, and, if rumor is to be believed, it was his decision to change it in 1983's Holy Books of Thelema (p. 250). This issue has been bugging him a long time; he wanted a solution.

The only thing that has changed is the Windram "K", so, unless you objected to the Paraphrase being changed to "fill me", and had your own reasons for suspecting "kill me" was original, I find it difficult to understand how this "K" suddenly tilts the balance in favor of the original paraphrase, the one Crowley made between March 23rd and April 8th, saying "kill me".

Before last month, HB and everyone else seems to have taken the evidence as unambiguous - "fill me" was intended and original, and "kill me" was a later variant. Suddenly, a number of people think that the "kill me" was original, and Crowley and the typist made a mistake with "fill me".

Isn't the simpler and fairly demonstrable solution that Crowley continued working on the poem, and after the typescript had been made liked "kill me" there better?

(my speculation is that this is after he had versified the reverse of the stele, which speaks more to the death and coming forth of Ankh-f-n-khonsu).

"
To me, the question is: What belongs in Liber Legis? I believe this is "fill" for two specific reasons - only two:

The best evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that the penciled words "fill me" were written into the manuscript by the Prophet within a couple of days of the dictation, and I consider this as "within the original window of the dictation," on a level comparable to the Scarlet Woman's additions.
"

I agree it had to have been written within a couple of days, and that not only was it in the glow of the events, but it was well fixed in Crowley's memory what he had worked on for around the last two weeks - the poetic paraphrase of the French translation of the stele. I can't accept the notion that he erred in remembering what he had written, or that the typist, filling in the poem from the Vellum Book, chose to write the scribbled note in the manuscript over what was in that book. There is no reason not to think that "fill me" was what was written in the Vellum Book when the typescript was made. I think this has to be the default textual position, and that the existence of the variant "kill me" is best explained as part of Crowley's later revision of his poetic text, outside of the Book of the Law.

"

Crowley never changed this in any version of Liber Legis he ever published, even with an accelerated and highly public effort to "get it right." (And the evidence available to me leads to the conclusion that Crowley was aware of the f/k issue proximate to one or more of these editions.)
"

Yes, especially in the 1913 Equinox I(10), when the issue really was fresh on his mind. The editions of 1913, 1936 and 1938/1942 show conclusively Crowley's ultimate preference and intention. There can really be no question - the Windram "K" is an aberration, the meaning of which may be debated, of course, but it is deserving of a footnote or lengthy discursus at best. Weighing it any more than that rests on non-textual considerations - providential timing of discovering the Windram volume, primarily.

"
If I changed my mind on either of these conclusions, I'd have to go back to the start, reassess, and come to a fresh (same or different) conclusion. (For example, if the penciled note were not added until much later, I'd likely conclude that the text of the poetic paraphrase, as it existed on April 10, 1904, mattered. Otherwise, I don't see that it matters at all.)

Based on what is available to me now, and the weight that I give to the various factors, my present conclusion is easy: Obey my prophet, and publish it as "fill.""

I agree fully.

belmurru

@he atlas itch said

"First, let me clarify some points:

Perhaps it would be more to the point to ask proponents of the “fill me” camp what they see in Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema?"

It would seem to be pure speculation, since it was a marginal correction that was never implemented. HB suggests that the circumstance was Crowley's desire to make the text of CCXX agree with the Paraphrase in the Vellum Book that Crowley must have had in front of him (after having found it, as HB suggests, with the manuscript of XXXI in 1909), in preparation for its first printing in Equinox I(7) in 1912. I accept that that is the most likely scenario.

But, since the earliest (and most consistent) evidence is that the Paraphrase said "fill me" when Crowley wrote XXXI and had the typescript made in Cairo, then I cannot accept that "kill me" was original, and therefore Crowley in 1912 was trying to make CCXX agree with that. In other words, at this moment, Crowley liked his revision of the poem. This revision is what is printed as the Paraphrase.

Why did he like it then, or why did he change his original paraphrase from "fill me" to "kill me"? I think the best answers have been given by people recently trying to come to terms with "kill me", for instance to try to understand it in the ideological context of the poem, following on the words "consume me", etc. I myself earlier suggested that "kill me" was suggested by the imagery of "run through", as in being run through with a sword.

But whatever the explanation for what I see as a revision to "kill me", I have no doubt, and I think there is no good reason to doubt, that on April 10 1904 the poem in Crowley's mind said "fill me", and when the typist used the Vellum Book it said "fill me".

To sum up my belief about the Windram marginal note, I think it was a whim of Crowley's, which he thought better of (or in HB's words "promptly forgot about").

gurugeorge

@he atlas itch said

"
Perhaps it would be more to the point to ask proponents of the “fill me” camp what they see in Crowley’s marginal correction in Windram’s Thelema?"

A possible temporary flirtation with "kill me".

Azidonis

Seems fairly clear that "fill" is what Crowley wanted used in the printings of Liber L/AL.

Also seems fairly clear that "kill" is a variation on this, and Crowley liked to use it in his poetry, perhaps for a certain effect.

It also seems fairly clear that Crowley did not intend for the two to be crisscrossed and muddled into a divisive confusion.

belmurru

@Azidonis said

"Seems fairly clear that "fill" is what Crowley wanted used in the printings of Liber L/AL.

Also seems fairly clear that "kill" is a variation on this, and Crowley liked to use it in his poetry, perhaps for a certain effect.

It also seems fairly clear that Crowley did not intend for the two to be crisscrossed and muddled into a divisive confusion."

The problem is that HB believes that there is only one right answer - one or the other is simply an error that must be corrected, and the other expunged from authorized editions. He formerly believed it was "fill me", and corrected the Paraphrase to read that. But Windram's volume convinced him otherwise last month - now "kill me" is the only correct version and "fill me" must be changed everywhere it is found.

The idea that Crowley may have altered his paraphrase after April 10, 1904, continued to work on his poem, does not seem to have occurred to him. He certainly doesn't mention it as a possibility, although it can be shown that Crowley did indeed keep working on it.

Azidonis

@belmurr said

"
@Azidonis said
"Seems fairly clear that "fill" is what Crowley wanted used in the printings of Liber L/AL.

Also seems fairly clear that "kill" is a variation on this, and Crowley liked to use it in his poetry, perhaps for a certain effect.

It also seems fairly clear that Crowley did not intend for the two to be crisscrossed and muddled into a divisive confusion."

The problem is that HB believes that there is only one right answer - one or the other is simply an error that must be corrected, and the other expunged from authorized editions. He formerly believed it was "fill me", and corrected the Paraphrase to read that. But Windram's volume convinced him otherwise last month - now "kill me" is the only correct version and "fill me" must be changed everywhere it is found.

The idea that Crowley may have altered his paraphrase after April 10, 1904, continued to work on his poem, does not seem to have occurred to him. He certainly doesn't mention it as a possibility, although it can be shown that Crowley did indeed keep working on it."

I know, and agree.

Doesn't mean he's right.

For that matter, we could ALL be wrong, every last one of us, and may never know it.