"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
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@Jason R said
"SO was this just a test or something? I find it hard to believe you didn't know about this other supporting verse. "
No, not a test. It was, though, a training - a sharpening of your critical thinking.
And it's also so that, though I find your argument interesting, I don't find it persuasive. For one thing, the important arguments IMHO need to be documentary ones, not judgmental ones. And, in this case, to think that this verse is singularly pointed at this event (or one like it) is giving far too much wait to this event. The idea that the book would stop and embed a warning aimed at this one little detail seems... I'm not sure what the exact category is... some variation of inflated. Almost narcissistic. And it trivializes the real mysteries of the book.
I agree - and agreed even before you made your point - that not even a single character should be changed. (That's why my focus is on renewing attention to validating the original content and the provenance of the penciled passage.) The various forms of thought swirling around that are variations of, "Oh, my, the Book actually anticipated this exact situation and, look!, it gave us exact instructions for this very hour or our travail," is... at best... "So what!" Mostly I just think it's silly, inflationary, and overly attributing meaning.
"My original point, then remains, and I am guessing you agree? Liber L specifically speaks to this very issue, and is perfectly clear what changing it would lead to - "folly"! I find it highly significant that this whole thing is predicted within Liber L, and it seems to warn against this very situation to the letter (pun intended)."
Yeah, that's the kind of thinking that I think is clever. Excessively clever. A tease by Choronzon.
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@walterfive said
"I find it interesting that this is the 1936 Edition of "The Equinox of the Gods" that has "kill" instead of "will" and that this edition that the O.H.O. is relying upon as authorative also says that the book, 'Liber L vel legis' was received on "the first of April." "
93 Walterfive, I'm glad you're feeling better and are able to join the debate.
It has 'kill' because the text is a reproduction of the paraphrased Stele. No-one is arguing that the paraphrase says 'kill'. The crux of the matter is that the penciled in 'fill me' of the MS was made in all likelyhood mere hours or days of writing the book in Cairo and that is highly unlikely that Crowley forgot his own poetic paraphrase when he made the penciled notation for the transcribers, and Norman Mudd says that 3 transcriptions of the MS were made in Cairo.
As for the first of April thing (April Fools day)... in his comments to the book (the old comment as I recall) he makes something out of Aiwass and the Fool card of the Tarot. I think that's significant.
@ everyone.
Some people may be wondering why I am giving quite a lot of weight to Heru's discovery that there are 220 'K's in the book before HB changes it, so I ought to explain.
Jim inspired me to study Kabbalah some time ago, and while doing so I've learn that Crowley utilizes a number of techniques used by Kabbalists that he doesn't explain (or source the method) in any of his written works. The Lurianic Kabbalists employed a technique that was meant to produce a mystical exegesis of the Torah whilst bypassing the rational mind. Thus, a Lurianic Kabbalist might go to synagogue and instead of focusing on the meaning of the verses he would (for instance) sit and count the number of instances that a certain letter (say a Beth) appeared in the text. Then once he had the number he would go home and think about the significance of the number in respect of the Torah chapter that was being read out. It's reasonable to assume that since our Book of the Law is supposed to be a replacement for the lost biblical Book of the Law, that this method of Lurianic exegesis is relevant.
In other works (such as Ararita) then Crowley uses another Lurianic Kabbalistic technique - that of comparing what is said with it's opposite and uniting them. (See appendix of the Cry of the 22nd Aeythr - The vision and the voice)
"33. ARARITA (— a name of God, which is a Notariqon of the sentence: "One is His beginning; One is his Individuality; His Permutation One.") The use of this Name and Formula is to equate and identify every idea with its opposite; thus being released from the obsession of thinking any one of them as "true" (and therefore binding); one can withdraw oneself from the whole sphere of the Ruach. See Liber 813, vel Ararita. Contrast each verse of Cap. I with the corresponding verse of Cap. II for the first of these methods. Thus in Cap. III (stil verse by verse correspondence) the Quintessence of the ideas is extracted; and in Cap. IV they are withdrawn each one into the one beyond it. In Cap. V they have disappeared into the Method itself. In Cap. VI they reappear in the Form appointed by the Will of the Adept. Lastly, in Cap. VII they are dissolved, one into the next until all finally disappear in the Fire Qadosh, the Quintessence of Reality."
This type of meditation on the opposites is typical of Kabbalists but Crowley does not attribute the source of the technique he uses here. Likewise, the technique of reading the same numbered verse across chapters is another Kabbalistic method of especial note when it comes to hiding/concealing text. So in the Zohar (for instance) then you might find (once you have derived the correct layout of the Temple from the Tree) that the path of Mem when added to the letters of the holy name yeild the numbers 41, 44 and 45. To find the hidden text about Mem you would then read verse 41 across the chapters of the Book of Concealed Mystery, Greater Assembly and Lesser Assembly. Once assembled then you would read verse 44 in chapter one, then verse 44 in chapter two, and so on - precisely as Crowley here instructs us to do with Ararita.
Given that Crowley clearly demonstrates 2 methods of Kabbalistic exegesis and that he never bothers to attribute where he learned them, I am not surprised that a third method of Lurianic Kabbalah has cropped up in the Book of the Law, nor that Crowley left a 'K' in the margin of Windram's copy to draw attention to this fact.
Alrah. 93 93/93.
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It's interesting that this is coming about in the last year of the Era of the Emperor.
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@KhutnAb said
"It's interesting that this is coming about in the last year of the Era of the Emperor."
Isn't it
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"And it's also so that, though I find your argument interesting, I don't find it persuasive. For one thing, the important arguments IMHO need to be documentary ones, not judgmental ones. And, in this case, to think that this verse is singularly pointed at this event (or one like it) is giving far too much wait to this event. The idea that the book would stop and embed a warning aimed at this one little detail seems... I'm not sure what the exact category is... some variation of inflated. Almost narcissistic. And it trivializes the real mysteries of the book."
How can we determine how much weight this event has, if we do not even know all it’s mysteries?
1:56 “Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein.”
The book seems to obviously speak to this type of thing, so how can we simply shrug at ANY instance it is threatened? Even more so if the change involves a single letter as the book seems to uncannily point out? To trivialize the real mysteries of the book, is to think this doesn’t matter. I don’t know if it does or not, I don’t know everything it could or could not change, so it’s best to error on the side of caution.
"I agree - and agreed even before you made your point - that not even a single character should be changed. (That's why my focus is on renewing attention to validating the original content and the provenance of the penciled passage.) The various forms of thought swirling around that are variations of, "Oh, my, the Book actually anticipated this exact situation and, look!, it gave us exact instructions for this very hour or our travail," is... at best... "So what!" Mostly I just think it's silly, inflationary, and overly attributing meaning."
So what you’re trying to say is; it’s better to run around and flip through various files and notes, and compare this to that etc., then simply follow the very clear warning given? After all the “fact” checking is over with (and 100 years hence facts to boot), and let’s say out pops a change of a letter, the verse said NOT to.
"Yeah, that's the kind of thinking that I think is clever. Excessively clever. A tease by Choronzon."
I think Choronzon is in the details. I think all this running around and comparing facts and notes and trying to figure it all out IS the pit of because. “Why did we change the letter?** BECAUSE...**”
All I am saying is that these chance events are perhaps NOT chance, just like the exhibit number was 666 by “chance”. If this is the case, what ended up in the book should be left, it was suppose to be that way. I am simply pointing out as well, the fact the book seems to describe this event so perfectly, gives weight to the power of Awaiss, and his validity.
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@Jason R said
"How can we determine how much weight this event has, if we do not even know all it’s mysteries? "
Most likely, a definitive answer will require waiting. Things may be more evident in distant hindsight. Otherwise, we have only reason and intuition to guide us.
"1:56 “Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein.”
The book seems to obviously speak to this type of thing, so how can we simply shrug at ANY instance it is threatened?"
You seem to be ignoring the possibility that he isn't changing but, in fact, is restoring it from an inadvertent distortion in the past. I don't happen to think that this is so, but the main reason I'm not bouncing boing-boing off the walls about the issue is that I recognize the possibility that this is so.
No two published editions of Liber Legis have been identical (unless one was a photographic replica of the other). Each successive edition by Crowley and others has had a few small changes. In that sense, changing this one is nothing new - except that it's a more noisy, obvious example. But making editorial corrections to the Book isn't new or unique at all - it's been the standard of each edition.
"So what you’re trying to say is; it’s better to run around and flip through various files and notes, and compare this to that etc., then simply follow the very clear warning given?"
See above. Your point would be sound if there were a single clear, perfect standard for CCXX content. There isn't. Every edition has removed or added errors. Therefore, there's no way to apply your recommendation since there is no master standard (including the original manuscript) against which to match it.
"All "fact” checking is over with (and 100 years hence facts to boot), and let’s say out pops a change of a letter, the verse said NOT to. "
Except it isn't. It's been ongoing for over 100 years. This is the latest sincere effort.
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In case it got lost in the length of the foregoing, let me reiterate a point that may surprise some people.
No two separate publications of The Book of the Law have ever been identical unless one has been a photo reproduction of the other. (And that isn't the standard case.) Every main edition by Crowley and his successors has been different from every other edition.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"In case it got lost in the length of the foregoing, let me reiterate a point that may surprise some people.
No two separate publications of The Book of the Law have ever been identical unless one has been a photo reproduction of the other. (And that isn't the standard case.) Every main edition by Crowley and his successors has been different from every other edition."
And, of course, since the Book itself instructs that it should always be published with the original writing of the Beast, the differences between editions -- and all the other differences between the manuscript and the text -- don't add up to much.
I can't help but think that people are making a big deal over nothing, even though I don't agree with the correction. No one's "changing the Book of the Law." There has been a proposed correction to the text (which already varies in lots of ways from the manuscript anyway).
All of this "let's draw up petitions!" and angry rhetoric against the OTO seems to me misguided overreactions, products of attachment to the exterior trappings of the system ("holy books") rather than the essence of the subject.
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"You seem to be ignoring the possibility that he isn't changing but, in fact, is restoring it from an inadvertent distortion in the past. I don't happen to think that this is so, but the main reason I'm not bouncing boing-boing off the walls about the issue is that I recognize the possibility that this is so.
No two published editions of Liber Legis have been identical (unless one was a photographic replica of the other). Each successive edition by Crowley and others has had a few small changes. In that sense, changing this one is nothing new - except that it's a more noisy, obvious example. But making editorial corrections to the Book isn't new or unique at all - it's been the standard of each edition."
*"AL I,54: 'Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein.'
The New Comment
(...)This injunction was most necessary, for had I been left to myself, I should have wanted to edit the Book ruthlessly. I find in it what I consider faults of style, and even of grammar; much of the matter was at the time of writing most antipathetic. But the Book proved itself greater than the scribe; again and again have the 'mistakes' proved themselves to be devices for transmitting a Wisdom beyond the scope of ordinary language.*"
The bold of course is my own, and this is simply what I am saying. AC here is talking about the "mistakes" proving themselves to be on purpose, and required. Of course to those who do not take his original account of the dictation it means very little. I'm not "bouncing off the walls" I'm saying this particular change proposed, and the only one I know of, seems significant. I would be interested in knowing what other types of changes were made, and if they were dealing with a single letter.
Also, my argument is that this particular situation isn't simply an error of missing a punctuation mark, or a capital that may be in the original writing of the beast, but actually different than the ORIGINAL. The original manuscript that we have and see, and the book itself says to include, and actually ironically has within quotes "fill me", which is different than "kill me". What other changes are like this one?
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"And, of course, since the Book itself instructs that it should always be published with the original writing of the Beast, the differences between editions -- and all the other differences between the manuscript and the text -- don't add up to much.
I can't help but think that people are making a big deal over nothing, even though I don't agree with the correction. No one's "changing the Book of the Law." There has been a proposed correction to the text (which already varies in lots of ways from the manuscript anyway).
All of this "let's draw up petitions!" and angry rhetoric against the OTO seems to me misguided overreactions, products of attachment to the exterior trappings of the system ("holy books") rather than the essence of the subject."
Just the sort of attitude the book probably saw fit to include this warning for! Why the uproar? The book, to those who believe, holds hidden aspects that may be altered by changing so much as "the style of a letter". How can you say no one is changing it? It most certainly IS a change, although it may be minor, or even insignificant, it IS a change. The words "fill" and "kill" lend a whole new meaning to the phrase, at the very least! I'm not buying this whole "it's a correction" B.S.
I wouldn't call it angry rhetoric, but more like concern, and surprise the visible heads of the orders seem to shrug off something the book definitely says not to do. It seems odd to me that this verse alone about not changing even a letter wouldn't be enough to drop the idea outright.
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Screw this, I'm going to type up my own copy from the manuscript.
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@Jason R said
"The book, to those who believe, holds hidden aspects that may be altered by changing so much as "the style of a letter"."
The Book itself says that "in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are mysteries that no Beast shall divine."
In other words, there are "mysteries" supposedly hidden in the shape of the letters that Crowley wrote and their positions on the page. Those are mysteries contained in the manuscript.
The text already differs from the manuscript. For example, the text contains numbers for the verses in Chapter One, where the manuscript has no numbers; the text entirely omits the bit crossed out before Rose rewrote that part in "whiter words" (it also omits the instruction to write it in whiter words); the text omits the grid, the line, and the circle with a cross in it; the text omits the injunctions to place the verses of the Stele in three places (instead, the text actually contains those verses).
I could go on, but the point is that the text differs from the manuscript already pretty considerably: which is fine, because the "mysteries" are in the manuscript, not in the way it's represented in the text.
"How can you say no one is changing it? It most certainly IS a change"
Well, the argument appears to be that Crowley is the one who "changed" the Book by misquoting that line from the Stele in a pencil note he made after the dictation. Hence, altering the f to the k isn't a change, but a correction of a change that Crowley accidentally made in the text.
Now, I don't find that argument convincing, but it certainly makes sense and is consistent. And, as I pointed out above, in the grand scheme of things, this issue makes no difference. To get so worked up over virtually nothing is to demonstrate that one is attached to the trappings of Thelema rather than the essence.
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@Los said
"To get so worked up over virtually nothing is to demonstrate that one is attached to the trappings of Thelema rather than the essence."
Yeah, btw here is the essence, since we're talking about it:*The external evidence for the Book is accumulating yearly: the incidents connected with the discovery of the true spelling of Aiwaz are alone sufficient to place it beyond all quaver of doubt that I am really in touch with a Being of intelligence and power immensely subtler and greater than aught we can call human.
This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.
I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
I, a master of English, was made to take down in three hours, from dictation, sixty-five 8" x I0" pages of words not only strange, but often displeasing to me in themselves; concealing in cipher propositions unknown to me, majestic and profound; foretelling events public and private beyond my control, or that of any man.
This Book proves: there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions.
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"The Book itself says that "in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another: in these are mysteries that no Beast shall divine."
In other words, there are "mysteries" supposedly hidden in the shape of the letters that Crowley wrote and their positions on the page. Those are mysteries contained in the manuscript."
Yes, in the chance] shape of the letters, which you leave out. To sit there and read this as simply meaning the message of the book itself makes this verse completely pointless. The** “chance” **changes everything, in that, as AC mentions the “mistakes” even hold value and meaning in and of themselves. Besides, this is not the ONLY verse that mentions secrets hidden etc.
"The text already differs from the manuscript. For example, the text contains numbers for the verses in Chapter One, where the manuscript has no numbers; the text entirely omits the bit crossed out before Rose rewrote that part in "whiter words" (it also omits the instruction to write it in whiter words); the text omits the grid, the line, and the circle with a cross in it; the text omits the injunctions to place the verses of the Stele in three places (instead, the text actually contains those verses)."
Yes, and these are ALL easily found in the original. The text itself may not show them, but they are there to be found in the original. The words “fill me” in quotes in the ORIGINAL can be found, that's true, however CHANGING the word to “kill” is not there. Get me? I said, that it is* significant* that AC actually quotes the words “fill me” IN the original, not “kill me”. This change to “kill” changes the meaning as well of the phrase.
"I could go on, but the point is that the text differs from the manuscript already pretty considerably: which is fine, because the "mysteries" are in the manuscript, not in the way it's represented in the text."
The text is read by many newcomers, and it is the usual part we all read, not the original. The original is suppose to be the basis of the text, and this meaning then of the original is changed IN the text, if the words change, like the difference in meaning between “fill” and “kill”.
"Well, the argument appears to be that Crowley is the one who "changed" the Book by misquoting that line from the Stele in a pencil note he made after the dictation. Hence, altering the f to the k isn't a change, but a correction of a change that Crowley accidentally made in the text.
Now, I don't find that argument convincing, but it certainly makes sense and is consistent. And, as I pointed out above, in the grand scheme of things, this issue makes no difference. To get so worked up over virtually nothing is to demonstrate that one is attached to the trappings of Thelema rather than the essence."
I know the argument, I just think it’s silly. My main point, that I have repeated here over and over, is that the MISTAKES are important. AC even mentions how these mistakes have proved important in the long run. We have NO idea of what may be hidden or effected, and so I am saying the warning in not one, but several verses about not tampering with the end result should be heeded. Yes, I agree AC may have wanted to fix it, and tried, but he FAILED. Hes gone, and cannot speak about it. What we have is what we have, and to second guess all the factors over a hundred years later is silly. The book mentions this very thing pretty darn clearly, and so why not just heed its warning?
Anyway, it’s your opinion that my concern is over nothing. How would you know if it is important or not? Do you know everything? The “essence” is not the point here, the “mysteries” hidden within it are, and even the essence of the phrase within the verse is at stake. I’m simply defending what I think the book obviously thinks is important, and warns about. Why bother with including this verse about ironically a single letter if it’s just not that important?
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"Yeah, btw here is the essence, since we're talking about it:
The external evidence for the Book is accumulating yearly: the incidents connected with the discovery of the true spelling of Aiwaz are alone sufficient to place it beyond all quaver of doubt that I am really in touch with a Being of intelligence and power immensely subtler and greater than aught we can call human."
Exactly, thank you Frater 639. That is another point too, and that is this is evidence of a prediction, which lends weight to the reality of Awaiss.
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@Frater 639 said
" btw here is the essence"
Anyone who thinks the "essence" of Thelema is about contact with oogity-boogities needs to go back and read the core Crowley texts again.
@Jason R said
"My main point, that I have repeated here over and over, is that the MISTAKES are important. AC even mentions how these mistakes have proved important in the long run. We have NO idea of what may be hidden or effected"
Yeah, I hear what you're saying -- and to your credit, at least you're making sense here -- but Crowley evidently did correct the f to k in his copy, which suggests he didn't see anything wrong with correcting it.
Besides, the original manuscript is there for anyone to examine, so no matter what alterations/corrections are made, no one will be prevented from examining the "chance" anything.
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@Jason R said
"
"Yeah, btw here is the essence, since we're talking about it:The external evidence for the Book is accumulating yearly: the incidents connected with the discovery of the true spelling of Aiwaz are alone sufficient to place it beyond all quaver of doubt that I am really in touch with a Being of intelligence and power immensely subtler and greater than aught we can call human."
Exactly, thank you Frater 639. That is another point too, and that is this is evidence of a prediction, which lends weight to the reality of Awaiss."
I disagree that the warning was a "prediction," per se.
I paraphrase Crowley: for a prediction to made it must first be stated that it is a prediction, it must be made and known of before the event itself actually occurs, and it must be clear that it could have meant nothing but the stated event that it was said to have predicted.
I don't believe this warning/injunction was a prediction and I said with Jim that it is being made too important as such. It is, in my opinion, a good example of what and why this injunction is about - and also do not agree that William Breeze's arguments for his "correction" are strong enough to warrant the correction.
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@Jason R said
"The New Comment
(...)This injunction was most necessary, for had I been left to myself, I should have wanted to edit the Book ruthlessly. I find in it what I consider faults of style, and even of grammar; much of the matter was at the time of writing most antipathetic. But the Book proved itself greater than the scribe; again and again have the 'mistakes' proved themselves to be devices for transmitting a Wisdom beyond the scope of ordinary language.*""
By the way, the "mistakes" Crowley is talking about here are the apparent mistakes in grammar throughout the Book (e.g. "be me" instead of "be I," and all the unusual capital letters throughout).
He's not talking about those passages where he was instructed to add something to the Book and then later mistquotes the thing he was supposed to add.
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@Los said
"Anyone who thinks the "essence" of Thelema is about contact with oogity-boogities needs to go back and read the core Crowley texts again."
Hmm. I think that Book 4 is a core text. And, of course, so is the Book of the Law.
Remember, a WHOLE SECTION and the CLIMAX of Book 4 is designed to "make the case" and calculate probabilities -- to mathematically PROVE that Aiwaz is a "Being of intelligence and power immensely subtler and greater than aught we can call human."
Also, see below:
@Crowley said
"This Book [the Book of the Law] proves: there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Don't argue with me, argue with Crowley -- he's saying here that the BOL is proof of your "oogity-boogities" as you call them. And that this discovery is about as important as the invention of the Wheel, etc...
Sounds important to him in regards to the "essence" of Thelema.
Again, I'm not arguing for or against Crowley's belief of a praeterhuman origin -- I'm simply stating what Crowley wrote directly about this in relation to the significance of the BOL -- which is THE CORE TEXT of Thelema. If we agree that the BOL is the "essence" of Thelema, while ignoring what Crowley is saying here (btw - he is swearing an oath about this specific significance), we would be omitting key evidence as to what he thought the BOL stood for. These are hardly "trappings."
But, let's not get off topic because of your bias and blatant disagreement with Crowley's oath. If you want to pursue further, don't derail Jim's thread -- start your own.
Good day, Los.
@Takamba said
"I don't believe this warning/injunction was a prediction and I said with Jim that it is being made too important as such. It is, in my opinion, a good example of what and why this injunction is about - and also do not agree that William Breeze's arguments for his "correction" are strong enough to warrant the correction."
Agreed. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal. And there is no such thing as "bad publicity."
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@Los said
"
@Frater 639 said
" btw here is the essence"Anyone who thinks the "essence" of Thelema is about contact with oogity-boogities needs to go back and read the core Crowley texts again."
There's not a consensus on what the "core texts" are.