"Kill/Fill" - not "Kill Bill"
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@Takamba said
"I have finally reached a full conclusion that satisfies me and if William Breeze acts counter to the evidence I see, my entire opinion of the OTO since he took office stands affirmed (Not that I'm saying it was his taking office that lead me to my opinions of the OTO).
Evidence
- Liber Legis has always been printed with "fill me."
- The Paraphrase has, separate from Liber Legis, has been printed with "kill me."
- The Opening of the Taut ritual incorporates the Paraphrase and has "kill me."
- For reasons unknown, there's a crossed out "f" and penciled marginal "k" in a personal copy of Thelema at III:37 in Liber Legis.
- The invocation of Bartzabel (in both hand written and printed copies) uses "fill me."
Clearly Crowley could have at any time changed the letter in the printed copies of Liber Legis (be it in its separate publications as a book or when published within any edition of any book that includes it) BUT HE DID NOT DO THIS. Why? Because William Breeze says he was lazy and forgetful. HA! I doubt that really. William Breeze says this little pencil jot in a book he gave away (him... it was a book he gave away... that's a point too) is an indication of something called "intention." Nope. I don't believe so. Instead, even had Crowley the "urge" to look at "Aum! Let it fill me!" and wish it were "kill me," he observed diligently (as a prophet himself would!) the injunction to change no so much as the style of a letter. This proves William Breeze very weak in Will and maybe very big in want."
YES!! I agree completely.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"The "thou", the divine (as opposed to "you", the mundane) is central to Thelema, in the most concise statement, in the source text."
You’re talking about the difference between a person’s actual self and those thoughts in the mind that people often mistake for their actual self.
That’s certainly an important part of the concept of True Will – and we might even poetically describe one’s contact with his own True Self as a “godlike” experience…or hey, we might even pick an “absurd” term to use for it like, oh I don’t know, “Holy Guardian Angel” (which Crowley says he selected precisely because of its absurdity) -- but there's nothing about the concept (and especially nothing about putting the concept into practice) that relies on a belief in consciousness without a brain.
"why bother with Thelema at all?"
Because what I'm discussing, here and elsewhere, is Thelema.
"Why not just go make up your own, or adopt another, that doesn't include the supernatural or divine."
"there is no God where I am."
"These are fools that men adore; both their Gods & their men are fools."
"lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this."
"I am Life, and the giver of Life [...] I am the worshipper."
"I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men."
"There is no god but man."
"There is no grace / There is no guilt / This is the law: / Do what thou wilt."
"Honestly, it's the silliest thing ever, to go grab an existing term, with an existing meaning, according to the first prophet and proponent of the concept, and insist that unless everyone adopts your new, narrower definition, they're all wrong.
Thelema isn't yours to define."
I’m in total agreement here, but I think you’ll find it’s not me who’s “redefining Thelema.” You may want to have a closer look at some of these Space Alien brands of Thelema.
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@Los said
"I’m in total agreement here, but I think you’ll find it’s not me who’s “redefining Thelema.” You may want to have a closer look at some of these Space Alien brands of Thelema."
Again, I'd like to invite you to not derail this thread and look at the another one -- where I'd really like to discuss what you think the essence of Thelema is. It is called "The Essence of Thelema."
It would be good to get your input on that topic. After all, we all call ourselves Thelemites. I'd like to explore the different views and ideas of the core concepts...
EDIT: It looks like you just did. Thanks for that. Look forward to reading your perspective.
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Just out of curiosity I checked how many 'K's there are in Chapter One, Two, and Three. And if this doesn't give you a giggle then you need treatment.
**61 'K's in Chaper One. **
61 is referred to in Chapter One verse* 46. Nothing is a secret key of this law. Sixty one the Jews call it; I call it eight, eighty, four hundred & eighteen. *
What are the chances?
The 'K' occurs 69 times in chapter II, and 90 times in chapter III and a total of 220 times in the whole book.
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@Alrah said
"Just out of curiosity I checked how many 'K's there are in Chapter One, Two, and Three. And if this doesn't give you a giggle then you need treatment.
**61 'K's in Chaper One. **
61 is referred to in Chapter One verse* 46. Nothing is a secret key of this law. Sixty one the Jews call it; I call it eight, eighty, four hundred & eighteen. *
What are the chances?
The 'K' occurs 69 times in chapter II, and 90 times in chapter III and a total of 220 times in the whole book."
Interesting. I'm curious, what do you think this is pointing to? Why a "K"? Wheel of Fortune? WHy these numbers relating to only a K within these chapters?
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@Alrah said
"The 'K' occurs 69 times in chapter II, and 90 times in chapter III and a total of 220 times in the whole book."
I like 69.
90 is kinda square.
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I make the following observations while making the usual disclaimers and warnings about Gematria, and trust you know what they are.
I use the attribution of Tzaddi to the Emperor. Both King (MLK) and Kill are high frequency words in the book and they both = 90. 0 degree's Cancer is the Summer Solstice where the King (the Sun) is slain while at his fullest power and starts to die. Phallic dying God myth?
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@Alrah said
"I make the following observations while making the usual disclaimers and warnings about Gematria, and trust you know what they are.
I use the attribution of Tzaddi to the Emperor. Both King (MLK) and Kill are high frequency words in the book and they both = 90. 0 degree's Cancer is the Summer Solstice where the King (the Sun) is slain while at his fullest power and starts to die. Phallic dying God myth?
"Hmm interesting. I was trying to find a connection to the letter Kaph and wheel of Fortune maybe.
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@Jason R said
"
@Alrah said
"I make the following observations while making the usual disclaimers and warnings about Gematria, and trust you know what they are.I use the attribution of Tzaddi to the Emperor. Both King (MLK) and Kill are high frequency words in the book and they both = 90. 0 degree's Cancer is the Summer Solstice where the King (the Sun) is slain while at his fullest power and starts to die. Phallic dying God myth?
"Hmm interesting. I was trying to find a connection to the letter Kaph and wheel of Fortune maybe."
Summer Solstice and Wheels? Perhaps this from A.C. might avail?
"WHEEL AND---WHOA!
The Great Wheel of Samsara.
The Wheel of the Law. (Dhamma.)
The Wheel of the Taro.
The Wheel of the Heavens.
The Wheel of Life.All these Wheels be one; yet of all these the Wheel of the TARO alone avails thee consciously.
Meditate long and broad and deep, O man, upon this Wheel, revolving it in thy mind!
Be this thy task, to see how each card springs necessarily from each other card, even in due order from The Fool unto The Ten of Coins.
Then, when thou know'st the Wheel of Destiny complete, may'st thou perceive THAT Will which moved it first. [There is no first or last.]
And lo! thou art past through the Abyss."
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@Alrah said
"
@Jason R said
"
@Alrah said
"I make the following observations while making the usual disclaimers and warnings about Gematria, and trust you know what they are.I use the attribution of Tzaddi to the Emperor. Both King (MLK) and Kill are high frequency words in the book and they both = 90. 0 degree's Cancer is the Summer Solstice where the King (the Sun) is slain while at his fullest power and starts to die. Phallic dying God myth?
"Hmm interesting. I was trying to find a connection to the letter Kaph and wheel of Fortune maybe."
Summer Solstice and Wheels? Perhaps this from A.C. might avail?
"WHEEL AND---WHOA!
The Great Wheel of Samsara.
The Wheel of the Law. (Dhamma.)
The Wheel of the Taro.
The Wheel of the Heavens.
The Wheel of Life.All these Wheels be one; yet of all these the Wheel of the TARO alone avails thee consciously.
Meditate long and broad and deep, O man, upon this Wheel, revolving it in thy mind!
Be this thy task, to see how each card springs necessarily from each other card, even in due order from The Fool unto The Ten of Coins.
Then, when thou know'st the Wheel of Destiny complete, may'st thou perceive THAT Will which moved it first. [There is no first or last.]
And lo! thou art past through the Abyss."
"Nice! Hmmm I wonder what the 61, 69, and 90 are when multiplied by 20 (kaph)? lol here we go lol. Anyway thanks, nice little tidbit to ponder.
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For those of you researching this for yourself online, you should be aware of something that could potentially lead to some confusion regarding the "fill"/"kill" debate.
The online edition of The Equinox of the Gods, hosted at Hermetic.com, which was originally published in 1936 during Crowley's lifetime, has (possibly in the past month?) recently been edited to show "kill" instead of "fill" in verse III:37 online:
Equinox of the Gods at Hermetic.com on Jan 17th, 2013 (via Wayback web archives), there is no EotG-version of Liber CCXX included or linked:
web.archive.org/web/20130117065720/http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox-of-the-god
Equinox of the Gods at Hermetic.com as it now appears on the live site presently, Stele Paraphrase & Liber CCXX link added to EotG (see volume index), III:37 here changed to "kill":
hermetic.com/crowley/equinox-of-the-gods/liber-al-vel-legis.html
This change, oddly, has not been made (as of today) to any other version of Liber CCXX on the site:
www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=%22let+it+kill+me%22&as_sitesearch=hermetic.com
Of course, any serious researcher would check against the actual physical paper copy. But for a person who does't have access to one (current Amazon prices are ~$45-$100) and relies on these digital versions, this could lead one to the conclusion that Crowley changed the verse in CCXX to read "kill" in 1936. This is completely incorrect. All versions of The Equinox of the Gods (both 1936 white and 1937 red cover, and revised 1991 edtion) had "fill" in Liber CCXX.
This is a key edition to the debate, as it was published towards the end of Crowley's life.
Personally, I find this unethical from an academic standpoint, if this indeed was done to purposefully mislead people. I trust that this was not the case, but I'm lacking another explanation given that only this instance was edited on the site.
Perhaps if someone here reading this knows who is responsible for this, they can offer a reasonable explanation?
Yours in LVX,
93 93/93
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We shall have to keep an eye out and see if the OTO's gnostic inquisition of online editions decides the Evocation of Bartzabel's 'fill me' is also a typo. As it stands, the original typo theory is now a '2 typos' theory, and though to consider a 2 typo's theory seems darned silly, a handful of individuals are really willing to go out on that limb.
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@Alrah said
"I make the following observations while making the usual disclaimers and warnings about Gematria, and trust you know what they are....Both King (MLK) and Kill are high frequency words in the book and they both = 90.
"I've been wondering about Crowley's gematric reading of the issue, myself. (Please pardon if this been discussed already - I have limited online time and haven't been able to make it through every post on the subject yet.)
Depending on which word in Hebrew is chosen for "kill", there are some interesting interplays between the two options. I'm particularly looking at (71) מלא MLA (fill) and נכא NKA (strike/wound/break), and (75) נכה NKH (taking on more complete meaning of kill/slay, from what I've seen so far). There's some rich ground in there. If this was an area that Crowley had unsolved questions about, it seems likely that he would have investigated it qabalistically. I can understand where he would have been a strong preference for the "kill" side (for other reasons as well), but I think it's a mistake to think of the note in the marginalia as a correction. It is definitely good stuff that adds to an appreciation of the text (at least in my book!), but I don't feel that it replaces the fact that "fill" was what went down on the main document, our only surviving handwritten primary source for the revelation. I have to agree with the view that had he felt it warranted a change to Liber Legis, he would have been sure that it was immediately made and a corrected version issued within his lifetime. This book is, after all, the foundation of all his work. If a true error was discovered in 1912, it seems like he would have moved Heaven and Earth to get a corrected one published to sustain that work properly.
However, that doesn't rule out instances where he might have wanted to ritually incorporate the "kill" meaning or whatever personal insights he'd gained. Just offhand, I can see where "fill" would be more appropriate in some instances (such as when needing to radiate Divine authority over a evoked spirit), and where "kill" would be beneficial in something like Ritual CXX, or in something that was playing directly on the idea of "self-slain."
Without something more conclusive, such as a direct explanation of this "error" and the need for correcting it explained somewhere in Crowley's writings, I think that it's going too far to impose a personal meaning - even if it is Crowley's personal meaning - on Liber Legis itself. This has all become a more confusing with the online versions being instantly edited (and I don't have access to a good Crowley library at present), so if I am wrong on this point, and there was a Liber Legis using "kill me" issued by Crowley's authority during his lifetime, please correct me. (It may or may not change my personal opinion on the matter, since I do not hold Crowley as infallible on any matter, but I don't want to be stating a falsehood.
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Hang on a minute. Best we don't lose sight of the fact that the note causing all the ferkukkle is not an instruction to a typesetter, typist, copyist, or even Crowley. It is not even a proper part of Liber L. vel Legis. It is a correction!!!
As per the manuscript scan, Aiwass begins with the initial word of the third verse of Crowley's stele versification, "Unity."
From this are we to suppose that Aiwass was fallible and forgot the second verse, or that he/she/it specifically omitted it?
At some time afterwards, Crowley (not Aiwass) decided to include the second verse, and affixed a note to that purpose.
So, really, the "change not so much" rule demands that verse two of the stele paraphrase should NOT be included. Nor should Crowley's correction (change of mind). We have here a situation in which Aiwass is corrected (illegally) by Crowley, who is then (illegally) corrected by "yours truly." Magikal succession, eh!
See: "A pratererhuman entity with short-term memory loss - How's that work?" (www.lashtal.com/forum/index.php?topic=5940.0)
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That's not Crowley's report. He indicated that his sparse note at the time of dictation was accompanied by his fully knowing the intent.
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"He indicated that his sparse note at the time of dictation"
Hang on a minute! The note was scribbled in pencil. Since Crowley's description of items in the room excludes a pencil, I think it reasonable to assume that the note was added later. Besides, what point was Aiwass possibly trying to demonstrate by deliberately omitting verse two, then getting Crowley to nip into the next room for a pencil, then ordering him to insert a note that invalidates the manuscript's internal rules? Huh!
As previously noted - Aiwass is corrected (illegally) by Crowley, who is then (illegally) corrected by "yours truly." Deal with it!
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It boils down to whether or not you think Crowley was supposed to quote his other manuscript verbatim.
And that's just an unknown. Fact is, he didn't.
You can project the accusation of someone supposing unreasonable infallibilty either way - infallibility in the moments closest to inspiration or infallibilty in his using "kill" in the original poetic translation and elsewhere.
Denying fallibilty is not an option unless you choose to believe in two infallible versions, which begs the questions of the purpose and the possibility of having two "correct" versions for at least two diverse purposes.
So, the question, if it must be entertained, is when did Crowley's flaw occur, in the time most immediately following the inspiration of the reception or both before and after that inspiration?
Errors are frequently made in moments of ecstatic inspiration - if the reception is to be viewed through those eyes. On the other hand, we also know he himself struggled with understanding and accepting the contents of the Law and the authority of what he himself penned (and penciled) during that period.
So where did the flaw occur?
Projections are enimical to be sure, but one can't answer this question without some form of projecting the nature of the error (if one is convinced there is only one correct version for all purposes, which is itself a projection of the need for absolute consistency).
Must this decision be made? Why?
For consistency's sake? Children need such consistency.
Children...
What decision would make sense to a child?
Just thinking out loud here, mind you...
It can be legitimately argued either way, minus the projections of motive on either side.
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I feel it's VERY simple, and perfectly clear.
By whatever means, whatever mistakes, or circumstances, we arrived at the original ms., and it just so happens to have "fill me" within quotes, written in "the original writing of the beast".
The BOL says not to change even as much as the style of a letter.
This "correction" deals with a letter.
We shouldn't change it, whether an honest mistake, or a correction or whatever else you want to label it. The ms., SOMEHOW arrived to most of us with fill me. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if the whole matter wasn't already solved, meaning it was "fill" and we want to make it "kill".
We can go on and on about reasons it should be this or that, and into all sorts of details, but AC is gone, and it was a long time ago, and the book itself addresses this whole issue perfectly clear.
If it was in there for THIS long, it belongs.
Again, look at the "luck" of the Stele of Revealing being numbered 666. Luck? If we are going to believe this itself has no meaning then fine, but if you believe AC, then it wasn't. Would we even care if say in actuality the Stele was somehow labelled wrong? No. We don't even question it.
It all comes down to chance, and what drives it, and why. I think this SIMPLE overlooked bit of the story is actually VERY important. It helps us realize there is more at work, and what REALLY matters, as AC points out, the "mistakes", the chance circumstances that occur that themselves hold meaning independent of his awareness.
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"It all comes down to chance, and what drives it, and why. I think this SIMPLE overlooked bit of the story is actually VERY important. It helps us realize there is more at work, and what REALLY matters, as AC points out, the "mistakes", the chance circumstances that occur that themselves hold meaning independent of his awareness.
"
"Fill"* is *what he wrote.
So simple a child could understand it.
