What is Thelemic?
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@Los said
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This is too broad. If it's part of your True Will to eat a pizza tonight, does that become a "Thelemic" activity? Is it a "Thelemic" food?
"Well, yes, obviously the potential manifestations would be infinite.
@Los said
"Similarly, some people may climb mountains in the service of discovering their true will...does that make mountain climbing a "Thelemic" activity?"
For the persons whoms Will it is, yes.
@Los said
"I would suggest that your definition largely makes nonsense out of the word "Thelema," since you could call anything and everything "Thelemic" under it, which -- while that might be true on one level -- isn't practically useful as a definition.
"I would suggest you learn to broaden your horizons
And to answer your unasked question: Yes, at the moment I typed out the smiley face, it was my True Will to type out a smiley face.
Oh boy!
While the two smiley faces appear to be the same,
They are in actuality two entirely different events in space-time,
"Non-Existence Cubed"EDIT:
This is to say, that while two different events in space-time manifested as smiley faces on this internet forum, their meaning is not the same. -
How about this, everything we do is actually* "Thelemic", after all the word is simply Greek for "will". Now, of course this is a broad idea, but then again we are in the Aeon of Horus - which this word represents. If, "eating" is the "word" of the Aeon of a child teething, then everything in that phase falls under the overall heading of "eating", seeing that it all serves the main purpose of the age. In a more general sense, in simply understanding Thelema, then of course we simply cite "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law", which is anything that helps one perform ones "True Will". The main word of the Aeon is the Book of the Law, and so I would say that this is the fountain head of anything inherently "Thelemic" *if we want to narrow it down.
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I'm not sure why anyone would strive for a consensus definition of a word like Thelema, unless they were working toward establishing a dogma, or were operating under the delusion that a definition could approach the reality of the thing defined.
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I also note that the question posed here is NOT "What is Thelema?" but, rather, is "What is Thelemic?" These can lead down VERY different paths of discussion.
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Simply being..
It was said to me a short while ago that the error is in the thinking.. that it's something outside.
How can a pizza be Thelemic?
Rather, if the person experiences the pizza, the actual eating, the sensations for what they are.. not just the actions it entails but the experience of being.
Struggling under the yoke of a label.. Thelemic is perceiving clearly. -
@Solve et Coagula said
"Taken vary strictly, my first thought is that what's Thelemic is what's in the Book of the Law. That's easy enough, and hard to argue with, but it doesn't mean other Thelemic things don't exist as well. The qualifier there might be that the Book of the Law is Thelemic, and so is anything else that seems to espouse a similar philosophy.
[...]
Can all Class A documents be said to be Thelemic? Maybe just Libri VII, LXV, & CCXX? (and if so, why?)
Has Crowley written somewhere a definition of this adjective?Even as I write this I'm realizing I've used it here to mean both a strict and a loose interpretation, i.e. strict would be pure Thelema, e.g. Liber Legis, whereas loose might be something which mirrors the philosophy but was written centuries ago.
Any thoughts on whether the term is usually meant in a strict or loose sense, how either of those senses can be defined, and/or (especially) which things fulfill the strict sense?"
Thank you all for your thoughts. I feel like good discussion occurred but that the majority of my question was left unanswered by most. Many of you basically specified whether you thought the word (if unqualified) meant what I've termed the 'strict' or 'loose' definition, largely focusing on how the 'loose' definition might be defined.
I'm honestly less interested in which aspects of life or history can be considered Thelemic in this 'loose' sense and more interested in which texts or ideas (though I assume the ideas have a literary basis) you think fulfills the 'strict' definition.Is the Holy Guardian Angel Thelemic? It isn't mentioned in Liber AL.
If any book(s) or idea(s) can be said to be Thelemic in the 'strict' sense (other than Liber AL), what are they and why?
And specifically, Why? If Æons are Thelemic, why? I can interpret some implication here:@AL III:34 said
"the fall of the Great Equinox; when Hrumachis shall arise and the double-wanded one assume my throne and place. Another prophet shall arise, and bring fresh fever from the skies; another woman shall awake the lust & worship of the Snake; another soul of God and beast shall mingle in the globèd priest; another sacrifice shall stain the tomb; another king shall reign; and blessing no longer be poured To the Hawk-headed mystical Lord!"
but nothing to the extent of Isis, Osiris, Horus, & Ma'at, clearly described.
I agree that there is a 'loose' definition and that seems to be the favored implication here when the adjective is unqualified, however, I'm now specifically qualifying it.
What is 'strictly' Thelemic?
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@Solve et Coagula said
"If any book(s) or idea(s) can be said to be Thelemic in the 'strict' sense (other than Liber AL), what are they and why? And specifically, Why? "
In a strict strict strict sense? Probably the answer is No, with the exception of things that are immediate spin-offs to CCXX, such as Crowley's commentaries on CCXX, The Equinox of the Gods, and a handful of things written by the Prophet on the matter (such as - probably, without my stopping to reexamine them at the moment - all the Class E documents).
PS - I'm answering the question asked. It's not a question that matters to me personally or in my work. I'm more interested in what things are serviceable to Thelema, and the art is in making more or less anything serviceable to Thelema.
"If Æons are Thelemic, why?"
Only one aeon is Thelemic in the strict sense <vbg>.
The idea of aeons per se is Thelemic because it's a doctrinal idea that arose from the Prophet of Thelema.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"immediate spin-offs to CCXX, such as Crowley's commentaries on CCXX, The Equinox of the Gods, and a handful of things written by the Prophet on the matter (such as - probably, without my stopping to reexamine them at the moment - all the Class E documents)."
Awesome, thank you, that was completely my question.
Unknown exceptions aside, we have all Class E documents, the account of the reception (makes a lot of since as it's requested in AL, thanks for pointing that out), Liber AL itself, and it's commentaries (I'm assuming this includes Tunis, Djeridensis, the new and old comments).I like this grouping and will probably adopt it, though maybe the Class E documents one at a time as I reread them for this purpose. I find this topic most interesting from a comparative religion standpoint or in terms of the historicity of our particular movement, it's not something I'm using to further my Great Work, though I do think it helps to be able to be clear during promulgation.
Jim, can you describe the relationship of Class A documents to this 'strict' definition of Thelemic texts?
And maybe classify the A∴A∴ itself in these 'strict' Thelemic terms? -
@Solve et Coagula said
"Jim, can you describe the relationship of Class A documents to this 'strict' definition of Thelemic texts?
And maybe classify the A∴A∴ itself in these 'strict' Thelemic terms?"No.
As I said above, I'm simply answering the question asked. I'm not admitting the usefulness of the question. (It obviously has some use to YOU, or you wouldn't be pursuing it.) I don't consider my answer valid or useful in any sense except that it's useful (as a mechanical response) within the universe of your specific narrow question. And I am most specifically - very intentionally - not answering the question about the Class A documents. You my not quote me out of the context of this specific thread, with the specific development this thread has had.
As I said above, I'm more interested in what things are serviceable to Thelema, and the art is in making more or less anything serviceable to Thelema. In this sense, I consider the Christian Bible (all translations at all points in time) to be Thelemic.
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I was reading Crowley the other day (I forget where or what exactly) but he was castigating a commentator for his use of 'Thelemist' instead of 'Thelemite', or Thelemitan. It made me wonder whether I've been using the term 'Thelemic' when I should have been referring to all things 'Thelemitan'... and felt rather uncomfortable about it for a moment or two...