The Essence of Thelema
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Hello All,
I'd like to talk about what people consider the "essence" of Thelema, as it seems to be a topic of interest lately around the forum. It seems to railroad other threads, from time to time, so I'd like to open the topic for discussion here:
For some, Thelema is no more than a practical philosophy aimed at a more personal approach -- that is, finding and discovering the True Will.
For others, it is something that involves the collective community in an anthropological way. That the law of Thelema is "a New Law for Mankind" -- and the breadth reaches into more of a socio-political perspective of human motivations and actions -- as a culture: "I summon, therefore, by the power and authority entrusted to me, every great spirit and mind now on this planed incarnate to take effective hold of this transcendent force, and apply it to the advancement of the welfare of the human race."
Yet, for others, the emphasis of Thelema is more of a religion which includes the supernatural -- something beyond human and far more intelligent -- that proves "there is a Person thinking and acting in a praeterhuman manner, either without a body of flesh, or with the power of communicating telepathically with men and inscrutably directing their actions."
Can Thelema be one without the other? Are all of these points mutually exclusive? Why or why not?
I'd like to hear from all perspectives...
Particularly a rebuttal or an agreement with this statement, as it relates to the core text of Thelema (the BOL):
*Of course I wrote them, ink on paper, in the material sense; but they are not My words, unless Aiwaz be taken to be no more than my subconscious self, or some part of it: in that case, my conscious self being ignorant of the Truth in the Book and hostile to most of the ethics and philosophy of the Book, Aiwaz is a severely suppressed part of me. Such a theory would further imply that I am, unknown to myself, possessed of all sorts of praeternatural knowledge and power. The law of Parsimony of Thought (Sir W. Hamilton) appears in rebuttal. Aiwaz calls Himself "the minister of Hoor-parr- Kraat," the twin of Heru-Ra-Ha. This is the dual form of Horus, child of Isis and Osiris. If so, the theorist must suggest a reason for this explosive yet ceremonially controlled manifestation, and furnish and explanation of the dovetailing of Events in subsequent years with His word written and published. In any case, whatever "Aiwaz" is, "Aiwaz" is an Intelligence possessed of power and knowledge absolutely beyond human experience; and therefore Aiwaz is a Being worthy, as the current use of the word allows, of the title of a God, yea verily and amen, of a God. Man has no such fact recorded, by proof established in surety beyond cavil of critic, as this Book, to witness the existence of and Intelligence praeterhuman and articulate, purposefully interfering in the philosophy, religion, ethics, economics and politics of the Planet. *
I believe that Crowley was passionate and truly believed what he wrote here, since he repeated it so many times. It seems that he believed that wars actually broke out because this book was published!
Let's not get into what parts of his beliefs are credible -- we can start another thread about what parts GOOOD, what parts BAAAAD. What we can agree on, is that Crowley believed in some pretty outrageous phenomena...
I'm interested in what people think the "essence" is, or what Thelema stands for -- as the religious and philosophical system founded by Crowley.
In any event, I think an aspect of Crowley's True Will was to prove this with the BOL:
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This has been the One Fundamental Question of Religion. We know of invisible powers, and to spare! But is there any Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure? For the first time in history, yes! Aiwaz has given us proof: the most important gate toward Knowledge suings wide.I, Aleister Crowley, declare upon my honour as a gentleman that I hold this revelation a million times more important than the discovery of the Wheel, or even of the Laws of Physics or Mathematics. Fire and Tools made Man master of his planet: Writing developed his mind; but his Soul was a guess until the Book of the Law proved this.
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Is the above important to Thelema? Why or why not?And based on all of this, I'd love to hear from everybody's personal perspective(s):
Is the charge associated with Thelema to advance the human race important to you?
Could the True Will be considered collective and not just individual?
Is it possible for Thelema to operate "objectively" and shape world events?
Is there really an "Intelligence or Individuality (of the same general type as ours) independent of our human brain-structure?"
Do you prefer tops or bottoms?
Thanks all for listening. I appreciate your time and look forward to your perspectives. I know I left out many important ideas, so feel free to add...
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Transcendental loving service unto Nuit
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Since Thelema means “will,” I would hope we can all agree that whatever Thelema is, the concept “will” has to be at least very important and probably central to it.
I would take the “essence” of X to be “something without which X could not be in any substantive sense.” For example, in most versions of Christianity, the essence of the faith would be belief in Jesus Christ as personal savior. That’s the one concept that is absolutely essential to being able to call oneself a Christian (again, it’s in the title). You take that out and you’ve got nothing: sure, I guess you could still do the rituals and have the whole Christian community stuff, but all of that stuff is secondary to belief in Christ: those things are supposed to be symbolic of or (theoretically) products of that belief (or they’re supposed to help individuals nurture that belief). That one belief is the whole thing, around which everything else revolves.
In Thelema, that essence is the concept of True Will. That's the one concept that is absolutely essential to being able to call onself a Thelemite. If you take out True Will, you’ve got nothing. Sure, a person could still do the rituals and have a “Thelemic community” where people could get together to dress in black and talk about sh!tty music, but again, all of that stuff is symbolic of or (theoretically) products of discovering and following the True Will (or they’re supposed to help individuals in achieving this central aim). That one concept is the whole thing, around which everything else revolves.
Just look at how Crowley defines Thelema in Liber II:
"Thou must (1) Find out what is thy Will. (2) Do that Will with a) one-pointedness, (b) detachment, (c) peace."
That’s what one must do if one is to be a Thelemite. Would anyone seriously dispute that a person who does those two steps qualifies as someone who practices Thelema, regardless of how he discovers and carries out that Will?
Nowhere, anywhere, does Crowley make any kind of claim that a person needs to believe in supernatural claims or even practice the occult to be a Thelemite. Whenever he’s writing about Thelema, he’s talking about action, morals, behaviour, all stuff related to True Will.
All the gobbledygook Frater639 posted above from Book 4 – about Crowley apparently believing goofy things about spooks – is irrelevant. Was it important to Crowley? Maybe, if we take him at his word. But is it essential to Thelema to believe that spooks cavort about us unseen and that one of these spooks just happened to select an enormous egotist to be the one and only super duper Chosen Prophet of the Aeon whom men must obey?
You’d better hope that being that damn gullible isn’t essential to Thelema….
A person’s still capable of discovering and carrying out his True Will independent of any of Crowley’s cockamamie claims and self-aggrandizing stories.
Does anyone here seriously think that a person discovering his actual nature is necessarily dependent on believing in spooks?
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When that True Nature is not limited to the body, a single identity, or a single life... yes.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"When that True Nature is not limited to the body, a single identity, or a single life... yes."
Right, but remember that Los hasn't got any "proof" (evidence is available, proof he has not found) of life after death (in the case of Thelema, reincarnation) which Crowley spoke plenty about. But then again, Crowley, according to Los, was as often wrong as he was right.
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Los -- thanks for your opinion.
@Los said
"For example, in most versions of Christianity, the essence of the faith would be belief in Jesus Christ as personal savior. "
Well, there is that dogmatic belief, yes. Which would be adhering to the letter and not necessarily the "spirit." Pardon the phrase. There is action and there is lip service. Anybody can say they think Jesus is their personal Savior -- and then go murder someone. I disagree that that is the "essence" of the faith. It is the practice, not the dogma. Agreed?
@Los said
"In Thelema, that essence is the concept of True Will. That's the one concept that is absolutely essential to being able to call onself a Thelemite. If you take out True Will, you’ve got nothing. "
Right. Although it evades any truly finite definition collectively, so it is hopefully left up to who the individual is. This is a blanket statement that can be summed up by: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, etc."
@Los said
"Whenever he’s writing about Thelema, he’s talking about action, morals, behaviour, all stuff related to True Will."
Speaking of the morals of Thelema:
So what about using Thelema to advance the human race? Was this also "goobledygook?" What about Thelema having far-reaching socio-political implications? They seem to have nothing to do with "praeterhuman beings" (except for the fact that Crowley thinks that Aiwaz had knowledge of some of these "future" events, and that he wasn't human), and more to do with the cultural implications of Thelema. Do you think that this particular religion could be as influential and as far-reaching as (say) Christianity?
@Los said
"All the gobbledygook Frater639 posted above from Book 4 – about Crowley apparently believing goofy things about spooks – is irrelevant."
Here we disagree. He mentions it several times. The origins of the Bible are always called into question when refuting its sometimes wild claims. Same goes with every major religion. We use reason based on evidence, right?
If one wishes to follow the religion known as Thelema, they must confront these claims made by its founder -- making it VERY RELEVANT. The cognitive dissonance that may ensue from believing the tenets of a madman/prophet (whichever one he is to you or both), when not thinking he is a very credible source, would **definitely put one in a compromising situation in one's own psychology **AND when speaking about the religion's credibility.
Same goes for any religion. You judge a tree by its fruit. Or in this case, you should probably look at your friend who drank the kool-aid before you do...
Do you find Thelema to be beneficial enough to recommend? If so, do you usually offer warnings as to what the interested party should believe when investigating the ideas for themselves?
@Los said
"Does anyone here seriously think that a person discovering his actual nature is necessarily dependent on believing in spooks?"
Absolutely not. There are no laws on that. In fact, I would say the more labels, the worse off that person is...
Meat and potatoes:
So, I think we've separated Thelema as religion and Thelema as the sentence laid out in Liber II. It seems you're only concerned with the aspects of Thelema as related to that sentence? Just it being a system of self-awareness and stopping at the individual, correct?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"When that True Nature is not limited to the body, a single identity, or a single life... yes."
EXACTLY.
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@Uni_Verse said
"Transcendental loving service unto Nuit"
I like this "essence" for sure. But I also like that kissing Hadit part, too.
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@kasper81 said
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essence"word
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Thelema is Greek for “will”, but then we have to ask what exactly is will? The real essence is the knowledge of what this word means, what it implies, and all it stands for, both in a sense for the individual, and also it can just as well apply to “will” in general, and to the “will” of Mankind.
I feel many miss the real clue to life that stares at them every day, a fact so obvious we confuse the forest for the trees. Reality, experience itself, is founded on perspective, and this perspective can always be symbolized as the “center”. Like a sun, everything seems to revolve around us, we are always figuratively at the Heart of the universe. We are also always alone within our perceptions, all our experiences are ours alone, again at least metaphorically, we experience reality this way; there is a reason for this. Yes, we can reason it away, as just a “fact of life”, that “of course we do, we have two eyes and no one else is in our heads”, yet “somehow” everything came into existence to allow this circumstance. This points very easily to the philosophy of Thelema, that of the individual, and personal responsibility, and our own choices, our Wills. This point of it, of the individual is important, such as discovering the True Will, but there is more I believe.
I believe another related aspect, and important part to Thelema, is that there is ALSO the “Will” of Mankind. We are a part of a larger structure, a larger whole, which itself has a Will, and we serve a function perhaps we may never see from our limited point of view. Future growth is dependent upon our awakening to a real interconnection with everything else, with everyone else. A real awakening to this fact, and a shot in the arm for this stage of unity among society, would be a real “proof” of an intimate connection, a reality of a “God”, a greater design and intelligence that ALL this is for. If mankind were to come into the knowledge, real knowledge that there is something more, it would drastically change our views on not only ourselves, but all of life. How many selfish aspects in society, crimes, and evils are caused by this fear, this hatred, intolerance, and rejection of life having any meaning? There is too much “I have to get mine, and screw everyone else” going on. Too many individuals afraid of life, seeking shelter, worried about the whole thing going up in flames, a pointless chaos. It’s a rat race. No one cares.
If we came to know that this greater whole that revolves every day around is is a part of us, that this larger globe, is alive, and loving, and seeking to instruct us how would this affect our attitudes? Everything around you is a living and intelligent part of you, and you are a part of it. If EVERYONE acted in accordance with the “illusion” we saw everyday, as being the captain at the helm, at the center of life, and solely responsible for whatever is within their power, and YET, at the same time, saw others as co-equals, this would be true enlightenment. If we acted as “Kings” and “Queens” of our center, and acknowledged this same paradoxical position of all others, then we have TRUE equality, and democracy. We must ALL act “as if” we were alone responsible, and yet at the same time behave as if all others were as well, yet secretly we alone the world rested upon. This is the secret I feel was given us, right from birth, the moment we opened our eyes. We simply needed to truly “look” at what this “illusion” of experience really is saying between the lines.
Thelema is the realizing of Will in All.
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"Do you prefer tops or bottoms"
I would prefer the middle, but I am very willing to take turns and share.
The essence of Thelema for me is that I can be myself and say something like that if I desire.
Everything unto Nuit.
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@Frater 639 said
"Los -- thanks for your opinion.
@Los said
"For example, in most versions of Christianity, the essence of the faith would be belief in Jesus Christ as personal savior. "
Well, there is that dogmatic belief, yes. Which would be adhering to the letter and not necessarily the "spirit." Pardon the phrase. There is action and there is lip service. Anybody can say they think Jesus is their personal Savior -- and then go murder someone. I disagree that that is the "essence" of the faith. It is the practice, not the dogma. Agreed?"
I can't help but think you're missing the point. I'm not talking about "belief" versus "action."
You asked about the "essence" of a system, which implies that you're asking for the concept that is logically central to it. In most forms of Christianity, the central concept is belief in Christ. A person can't lack that belief and still be a Christian, at least in the eyes of the vast majority of Christian denominations (and in my eyes too).
The comparison is that in Thelema, Will is similarly that essential concept. The central concept of Thelema is discovering and carrying out the True Will. A person who does not do that can't be called a Thelemite.
That's what makes it essential, as in can't do without it.
@Frater 639 said
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@Los said
"In Thelema, that essence is the concept of True Will. That's the one concept that is absolutely essential to being able to call onself a Thelemite. If you take out True Will, you’ve got nothing. "
Right. Although it evades any truly finite definition collectively, so it is hopefully left up to who the individual is. This is a blanket statement that can be summed up by: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, etc.""
Just so we're clear, the concept True Will has a very clear definition (an individual's natural inclinations in conjunction with the actual environment in which he finds himself). Now, what that True Will will actually be for each individual is obviously going to be very different for each person and determinable only by that person.
@Frater 639 said
"So what about using Thelema to advance the human race? Was this also "goobledygook?" What about Thelema having far-reaching socio-political implications?"
Yep. Gobbledygook. You ever try reading Crowley's batsh!t political ideas? "The Scientific Solution to the Problem of Government" reads like the blueprints to use the framework of Thelema to impose a totalitarian horrorshow on the world. No thank you.
"Do you think that this particular religion could be as influential and as far-reaching as (say) Christianity?"
I don't think of Thelema as a religion. I think people can base religions around the concept of Thelema, as the OTO has done, and as I gather Jim's group is doing or trying to do, but since you can have Thelema without the religious trappings, the religious trappings aren't essential to what Thelema is...they're extra bells and whistles (and pretty darn silly ones at that, if you ask me).
Do I think a Thelema-inspired religion could be as influential as Christianity? Probably not. The Book of the Law itself predicts that Thelemites will be small in number and "against the people," and I'd wager that's a pretty safe bet.
For the most part, I find fantasies about utopias and worldwide Thelema-like "religions" to be pie-in-the-sky daydreams that mostly distract from a given individual's True Will.
@Frater 639 said
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@Los said
"All the gobbledygook Frater639 posted above from Book 4 – about Crowley apparently believing goofy things about spooks – is irrelevant."
Here we disagree. He mentions it several times."
I didn't say it wasn't important to Crowley. I said it wasn't essential to what Thelema is. As you yourself say at the end of your post, discovering and fulfilling the True Will has no necessary connection to the belief in spooks, so this belief -- important as it may have been to Crowley -- can't be called essential to Thelema.
You can't sensibly counter that point by saying, "But Crowley mentions it many times!" That doesn't address my point. You could try to have a go at demonstrating that goblin-beliefs are essential to Thelema -- that a person couldn't be a Thelemite without holding such beliefs -- but you would fail at demonstrating that because it's not true.
"The origins of the Bible are always called into question when refuting its sometimes wild claims. Same goes with every major religion. We use reason based on evidence, right?"
Except here's where the comparison of Thelema to "major religions" goes off the rails: Thelema doesn't depend on claims about Spacemen. The basics of the Law of Thelema -- Do what thou wilt -- are an accurate description of reality, which any person can confirm by an independent study of reality itself.
Nobody should accept a claim simply because "It says so in the Book of the Law!" We should accept claims in the Book of the Law because they accord with what we can discover about reality.
What you're trying to do, by implication, is drag Thelema down into the sludge of spaceman religions, where people have to believe stuff because an ooky-spooky supposedly said it. That's obviously a ridiculous position, for a lot of reasons.
"If one wishes to follow the religion known as Thelema, they must confront these claims made by its founder -- making it VERY RELEVANT."
Well, I'm not sure I agree that every Thelemite has to do this...I'm sure there are some Thelemites who simply don't care, and that's fine.
But yes, for the most part, Thelemites should study the issue, and -- if they're smart -- they'll decide that there's not enough evidence to accept Crowley's claims about goblins. So yes, in that sense it's "relevant" to a study of Crowley's life, and a study of Crowley's life is useful for getting a handle on contextualizing Thelema, but Crowley's claims about goblins are irrelevant to the practice of Thelema, and the goblin-claims themselves are far from the essence of Thelema, which is what you started by asking about.
@Frater 639 said
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@Los said
"Does anyone here seriously think that a person discovering his actual nature is necessarily dependent on believing in spooks?"
Absolutely not."
So there you go. Then Crowley's spook claims cannot be essential to Thelema.
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@Los said
"Does anyone here seriously think that a person discovering his actual nature is necessarily dependent on believing in spooks?"
@Jim Eshelman said
"When that True Nature is not limited to the body, a single identity, or a single life... yes."
I guess that was supposed to be an answer to my question.
Unfortunately for you, there is no indication that "True Nature" has anything to do with a spook (also known as "consciousness not dependent on a brain"). In fact, there's a lot that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of the brain and that a person simply ceases to be when the brain stops working.
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" In fact, there's a lot that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of the brain and that a person simply ceases to be when the brain stops working"
There is a lot more that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of our heart...
Which is the first organ to develop, the first cells actually, then the brain and then the skin.www.eurostemcell.org/factsheet/heart-our-first-organ
Which I believe is where a lot of differences in opinion come from,
One camp says the brain
One camp says the senses/ skin
And one says the heart.Just thought you all might like to reflect on that fact which IMO has deep metaphysical implications.
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@Los said
"In fact, there's a lot that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of the brain and that a person simply ceases to be when the brain stops working."
So, in your opinion, a person is a symptom of the brain? In your opinion, then, is Will also a symptom of the brain?
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
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@Los said
"In fact, there's a lot that suggests that everything we call a person is a creation of the brain and that a person simply ceases to be when the brain stops working."So, in your opinion, a person is a symptom of the brain?"
I would prefer to say "product of," but yes. Everything that you call "you" appears to be a function of what's between your ears. Another way to say this is that the evidence strongly suggests that minds are what brains do.
"In your opinion, then, is Will also a symptom of the brain?"
It seems overwhelmingly likely that thing we call True Will is equally a product of the brain.
And when the brain goes, you go. Hell, a traumatic enough brain injury could radically alter your personality, completely changing your opinions, beliefs, and everything you hold dear.
I realize it's probably really fun for a person to imagine that he or she is some super powerful spook from Sirius who's lived multiple lifetimes before and that his or her transdimensional alien BFFs have named him or her Visible Outer Head of the Elk Society, or whatever, and that the whole universe runs on pixie dust that can grant wishes if one imagines white light hard enough, but all of that is just a bunch of dafto fantasies.
We're all sacks of meat, and we're not forever. Enjoy every minute you have alive, because this is the only chance you have to do so.
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So the only purpose in discovering will, to you, is to enjoy life more before you die?
Also, will in your view of the universe is a misnomer, since it's a side effect of biology, and can be changed fundamentally by random circumstance. Right?
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@Los said
"You asked about the "essence" of a system,"
No, I didn't.
And I'm not aware that Thelema - by your strict definition - has a formalized practice (you mentioned practice specifically), but I'm open to hear what you think. Also, you're the one that mentioned "essential"...
Just so we're clear -- the "essence" in context is this:
"Essence," in metaphysics, is often synonymous with the soul, and some existentialists argue that individuals gain their souls and spirits after they exist, that they develop their souls and spirits during their lifetimes. For Kierkegaard, however, the emphasis was upon essence as "nature." For him, there is no such thing as "human nature" that determines how a human will behave or what a human will be. First, he or she exists, and then comes attribute. Jean-Paul Sartre's more materialist and skeptical existentialism furthered this existentialist tenet by flatly refuting any metaphysical essence, any soul, and arguing instead that there is merely existence, with attributes as essence.
Thus, in existentialist discourse, essence can refer to physical aspect or attribute to the ongoing being of a person (the character or internally determined goals), or to the infinite inbound within the human (which can be lost, can atrophy, or can be developed into an equal part with the finite), depending upon the type of existentialist discourse.Which I think directly applies to the True Will. Even if the idea of a soul turns you off, the individuality and existence are very important concepts to examine...I don't really care about the labels...we could even say "Star" and "orbit."
But, by your definition -- if you mean essential, then, of course, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, etc." is the most important idea of Thelema, as you seem to agree with. But by that definition, a Christian, Buddhist, etc. could be a Thelemite. Unless one cares to dictate what True Will actually means to that specific individual.
In short, I think the True Will idea is important, but it doesn't say much when studying Thelema as a system or a "practice" -- we'll need to look at practices, if it is to be practiced. Which I'm interested in hearing from you which practices you've found to be essential, as you seem to have a good idea what your True Will is...
Just to be clear -- essence, in the discussion of ideas (which is what we are doing), most definitely can include things that are "outside physics" (metaphysics) -- just try to measure a True Will if you don't understand what I mean. Difficult if it is unique to the individual and sometimes not fully known...it is partly a subjective experience, no?
Also, something that seems to be creating confusion in our discourse:
@Los said
"I don't think of Thelema as a religion."
*Thelema (pron.: /θəˈliːmə/; Koine Greek: [θélima]) is a religion[1] that was developed[2] by the early 20th century British writer and ceremonial magician, Aleister Crowley. He came to believe himself to be the prophet of a new age, the Æon of Horus,[3]
Religion is an organized collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. From their ideas about the cosmos and human nature, they tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.[1]
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Of which, Thelema is only one.Whether you agree with the above definitions or not -- these are the working definitions. A Christian may dispute that all one has to do is believe in the idea of Christos -- or "anointed" -- if we wish to go to Greek definitions for our essential ideas...and the practices are something wholly different...which was my point.
So, going further -- when discussing the "essence" of Thelema -- we must include all concepts, practices, beliefs (including metaphysics), etc. to accurately look at all the ideas surrounding it.
The thread isn't called "The Practice of Thelema." But since you imply a system...how does Thelema work in practice by systematically helping one to find their True Will, in your opinion? You still didn't answer the question of "how is it beneficial to you?"
And do you ever talk about the benefits? Do you try to steer others as to what may be more beneficial in trying to find their unique True Will? You still never answered that question, either -- which I'd like to hear your opinion.
Since the core doctrine is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, etc.," it implies absolutely that the True Will of an individual can include anything that said True Will "wills" to do -- and they can still call themselves a Thelemite, yes? I think you're of the opinion that this is permissible by your words below:
@Los said
"Just so we're clear, the concept True Will has a very clear definition (an individual's natural inclinations in conjunction with the actual environment in which he finds himself). Now, what that True Will will actually be for each individual is obviously going to be very different for each person and determinable only by that person."
Going further, a collection of Thelemites can have core beliefs that they agree on, all according to their True Will, which may create a religious system around these beliefs. Which, in fact, they have -- it is called Thelema. One could even argue that it was the True Will of certain people to create the Christian religion.
Anyway, we need to be crystal clear on this -- the difference between Thelema as religion and Thelema as method. Which I'm interested to hear what "practice" you think is viable. Whether the practice is generally accepted or not...as it is a part of the essence by definition.
Your opinion regarding any one else's True Will is your right to have -- in fact, I encourage it -- especially if it is in line with your True Will to have it. That is beyond reproach, IMHO.
@Los said
"I think people can base religions around the concept of Thelema, as the OTO has done, and as I gather Jim's group is doing or trying to do, but since you can have Thelema without the religious trappings, the religious trappings aren't essential to what Thelema is...they're extra bells and whistles (and pretty darn silly ones at that, if you ask me)."
I don't really care one way or the other how another Thelemite chooses to express their metaphysics, beliefs, perform their practices, etc. (there are certain exceptions that do not apply to this discussion). And if you look at my questions, you'll see I reserve judgment on other people's True Wills. But I share many of your sentiments above. However, promulgation of any system that has helped an individual is a matter of personal taste, and, ultimately, could be a part of that person's True Will.
As far as all opinions surrounding "Do what thou wilt, etc." -- you're right, they are all trappings to someone outside that particular True Will and absolutely superfluous. Like this:
@Los said
"For the most part, I find fantasies about utopias and worldwide Thelema-like "religions" to be pie-in-the-sky daydreams that mostly distract from a given individual's True Will.
"I think we are in agreement here. But they are still your opinions about what is useful to another's True Will and ultimately are superfluous to them. Hell, it's possible that someone having those types of opinions are distracting from their True Will. Only that particular person can decide. Agreed?
@Los said
"You ever try reading Crowley's batsh!t political ideas? "The Scientific Solution to the Problem of Government" reads like the blueprints to use the framework of Thelema to impose a totalitarian horrorshow on the world. No thank you. "
I consider much of the text in the commentaries to be politically motivated, too. They are what they are. Part of his True Will, I guess...
I agree. Some of his ideas are OUT THERE.
@Los said
"Do I think a Thelema-inspired religion could be as influential as Christianity? Probably not. The Book of the Law itself predicts that Thelemites will be small in number and "against the people," and I'd wager that's a pretty safe bet."
Agreed. WITH EMPHASIS.
@Los said
"You can't sensibly counter that point by saying, "But Crowley mentions it many times!" That doesn't address my point. You could try to have a go at demonstrating that goblin-beliefs are essential to Thelema -- that a person couldn't be a Thelemite without holding such beliefs -- but you would fail at demonstrating that because it's not true."
I've already addressed the difference between essence and essential in the context of my OP. But I encourage you to delve further than this in the essentials of the practices if you wish -- which could include some examples of your discoveries and beliefs. In fact, I'd like to hear them. I respect your skeptical views and think that you might have some really good points here -- if we could just stick to what's useful...
@Los said
"But yes, for the most part, Thelemites should study the issue, and -- if they're smart -- they'll decide that there's not enough evidence to accept Crowley's claims about goblins. So yes, in that sense it's "relevant" to a study of Crowley's life, and a study of Crowley's life is useful for getting a handle on contextualizing Thelema"
Wholly agree.
So, I'm glad I asked these questions. As I ended my first response, it seems I was correct...
@Frater 639 said
"So, I think we've separated Thelema as religion and Thelema as the sentence laid out in Liber II. It seems you're only concerned with the aspects of Thelema as related to that sentence? Just it being a system of self-awareness and stopping at the individual, correct?"
Is this correct, according to your opinion?
However, if Thelema as practice includes finding a person's independent True Will, their True Will could necessarily include NOT just stopping at the individual, or is that too much of a leap in your opinion?
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm interested in your responses.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So the only purpose in discovering will, to you, is to enjoy life more before you die?
Also, will in your view of the universe is a misnomer, since it's a side effect of biology, and can be changed fundamentally by random circumstance. Right?"
You caught him there. When will stops and asks.... "why do I exist?" "Because you are a product of accidental biology." "Then in fact I am naught and do not exist."
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"It seems overwhelmingly likely that thing we call True Will is equally a product of the brain."
I strongly disagree.
True Will is not a product or result of any brain or mind. If a person thinks they are doing their true will, and using their brain to navigate, in reality they are not doing True Will at all.
True will does not require any brain power, does not require one to reason, or contemplate or reflect. True Will comes soley from the heart. It is about believing, and feeling, and loving, relating, and sharing. A person who is in alignment with their true will never questions that, they just continue with courage, strength, compassion,wisdom, and understanding....love is the law. Love under will. That statement has nothing at all to do with brain power.
The heart is an organ that circulates. Keeps things going. If you have heart disease, you will most likely loose your teeth. The very tool to help you consume what you need.
In the year 1932, my grandmother was pregnant with my mother. In her womb my mother was growing and with in six weeks the embryo that was my mother had already perfectly formed in her ovaries the eggs that would become me and my siblings. Everything that my grandmother ate, and felt ( her emotional highs and lows) became part of my mother, which in a way became part of me. Her thoughts, like a gentle breeze, had no effect, but the biochemicals flooding her circulatory system, greatly impact the unborn.
As I understand Thelema, it is about training or retraining that muscle we call the heart, so that an organism is in accordance with the supreme axiom Love is the Law. In the healing community, be it medical doctors, or gurus or others, you can hear the phrases....
I don't know......(what's wrong, how to fix, what to do) I can't....
That's the mind, this brain.....
But you can also hear
I believe, I trust, I am willing, I surrender
That's the heart, And if you listen to the messages of the heart you can heal what ever ails you, you can enjoy any challenge, you can be love under will, which is TrueWill.The mind and brain shackle us.
But it is through the heart that we are freed.