Thelema without jargon
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I have mixed feelings about it.
I find myself "translating" Thelema to my friends who aren't familiar with it, so I imagine that the motivation for writing is would be similar.
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@Uni_Verse said
"Pardon me while I sound off for a moment (nothing against OP):
I would prefer people start educating themselves instead of having things dumbed down.These statements may be similar to Thelemic principles, they are not equal."
Yeah, but you can't always go off into a lecture with casual friends etc. My take of these were that they were just real general points, a simplified view of a Thelemites views.
Of course no Thelemite is going to just follow these alone, blindly etc. Its a simplified summation of the general idea, to use in casual conversations.
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I like it! Simple doesn't mean less effective. I think it can be more effective at times...
If we're talking about relating Thelema to others, I think sometimes it requires an intellectual approach, sometimes a jovial approach, sometimes a martial approach, sometimes a passionate approach, etc. The formula of the R.C. applies.
It really all depends on the needs of the person. And my general rule of thumb is, if they are searching for something like Thelema, you'll know immediately.
I think sometimes Thelemites think that all people should want to subscribe to Thelema, for some odd reason...
Anyway, before I break off into too much of a tangent -- I think its best to develop all approaches when it comes to speaking about Thelema. A philosopher will want philosophy, a teacher will want teachings, an artist will want art, etc.
That being said, I like the warning of this passage:
My Son, there are afflictions many and woes many, that come of the errors of men in respect of the will; but there is none greater than this, the interference of the busy-body. For they make pretence to know a man's thought better than he doth himself, and to direct his will with more wisdom than he, and to make plans for his happiness. And of all these the worst is he that sacrificeth himself for the weal of his fellows. He that is so foolish as not to follow his own will, how shall be be so wise as to pursue that of another? If mine horse balk at a fence, should some varlet come behind him, and strike at his hoofs? Nay, Son, pursue thy path in peace, that thy brother beholding thee may take courage from thy bearing, and comfort from his confidence that thou wilt not hinder him by thy superfluity of compassion. Let me not begin to tell thee of the mischiefs that I have seen, whose root was in kindness, whose flower was in self-sacrifice, and whose fruit in catastrophe. Verily I think there should be no end hereof. Strike, rob, slay thy neighbour, but comfort him not unless he ask it of thee, and if he ask it, be wary.
In the end, I think it is living the example of happiness that works the best...and the best teachers lead by example. It is so easy to fall into dogma. I feel inspired every time I say that and it makes me want to shut up.
Is that possible?
But seriously, there is a magnetic aura to happiness that seems to heal and inspire -- and that root is love.
Anyway, I liked the list -- it seemed honest and open. It might not be suited to everyone, but it is definitely colloquial and charming.
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IAO131 is a member of this forum, and I have always enjoyed his writing and insights.
I especially like this well thought out piece. Thanks for sharing it here as I hadn't checked his blog in a while. -
@kasper81 said
"I think it's mental clutter. A waste of time. I never even read it."
Uh, then how do you know it's a waste of time?
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@Frater 639 said
"....thou wilt not hinder him by thy superfluity of compassion. Let me not begin to tell thee of the mischiefs that I have seen, whose root was in kindness, whose flower was in self-sacrifice, and whose fruit in catastrophe. Verily I think there should be no end hereof. Strike, rob, slay thy neighbour, but comfort him not unless he ask it of thee, and if he ask it, be wary.*
In the end, I think it is living the example of happiness that works the best...and the best teachers lead by example.... there is a magnetic aura to happiness that seems to heal and inspire -- and that root is love."
Great points!
I think the list is an excellent thing to aspire to, on many points, and as inspiration, it works. (And for me, a simple trip to visit my Southern Baptist kinfolk in Mississippi usually shows how *well *these things work.)
My main objection is that with things like this, it is very easy to disingenuously sidestep the "harsher" Chapter 2 & 3 parts, and those are the parts that are the most difficult to integrate. (Don't get me wrong - I'm a classic "Chapter 1" sort by nature, though in the past few years of my training I understand the reason why that's not the only chapter in the book.) Without confronting those and working through them, there's a real danger of this falling into same trap as any other religious platitudes: I "accept" and "love" and "enjoy" you, except when you offend me or don't do what I want, and then I will to try to get rid of you, all the while claiming that I'm simply responding appropriately to your negativity. "Principles" can either strengthen one's honesty and ability to critically self-reflection, or provide a really attractive chart for self-delusion....and so much that depends on the character that comes to the teachings or principles in the first place.
I love the quote you've included. We see the reality of this all the time in healing work - the way people come to identity with their condition/illness/dysfunction is usually the biggest adversary faced in the work we do. That attachment is like a vampire - it jumps in front of everything you do and steals the energy of that love away for its own sustenance. So we're taught to spend very little time listening to people's "problems" or comforting them. If they want to get rid of it, they'll do the work, and they'll be grateful that your attention is completely on the work. This is no way means being cruel or unfeeling or having a crappy bedside manner...just very aware of the dangers involved in trying to intervene outside your own Kingdom. I agree totally with your remarks on happiness - a person who is genuinely happy can walk into a room and elevate the energy, bring people out of their misery for a moment, and leave them with hope....as long as they are able to cast that Light freely and without attachment to it (because you if you try to get any of it back, you'll find some monster gators on the end of that line!!)
The clearest path for me in de-jargoning Thelema is simply to stress Honesty, first of all with the self. I'm firmly convinced at this point that not everyone out there is meant to tackle this Tradition, at any dosage level. I'd much rather get people training internal arts with me and getting their heads and energy clear, becoming healthy and happy people who are pain-free enough to find whatever it is that will lead them to the discovery of their Genius, before I even think about discussing spiritual theory with them. I can share all the benefits of my Thelemic praxis with them much better that way, without so much time spent on arguing in the head about it.
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@kasper81 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@kasper81 said
"I think it's mental clutter. A waste of time. I never even read it."Uh, then how do you know it's a waste of time?"
sorry
I got half way through and was overcome with nausea
weren't you?"
I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about a person who said he didn't read it, and yet said it was a waste of time.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@kasper81 said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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Uh, then how do you know it's a waste of time?"sorry
I got half way through and was overcome with nausea
weren't you?"
I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about a person who said he didn't read it, and yet said it was a waste of time.
""6. I never forget that being alive and being aware is a mysterious blessing that always deserves gratitude and joy."
Is that the line that bothers you? I'll admit sometimes you just don't want to feel like you should feel good when you just don't.
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@Shadow Self said
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"6. I never forget that being alive and being aware is a mysterious blessing that always deserves gratitude and joy."
Is that the line that bothers you? I'll admit sometimes you just don't want to feel like you should feel good when you just don't."
.Probably. I mean, that sounds about right. "Fitting in" by joining up with the people who "fit in" by making other people feel "bad" about themselves doesn't really make you feel good about yourself - it just makes you think you feel.
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Who cares about the opinions of some cat who calls himself kasper81?
indifferent.
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@kasper81 said
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what was it about this list that moved you to ask us this question? Was there something in this list that surprised you? if so then what and why?"Well, part of me appreciated the idea of the list, in that some of my friends have trouble understanding why I am in to this Thelema stuff, and I find I have to explain it to them, and this seemed like an effort to explain to outsiders.
But part of me felt it oversimplified or left out something important. I am not completely articulate what exactly.I often enjoy the discussions here and I thought this would be a good topic of discussion, which it has been.
93 93/93
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The other day I was watching a lecture discussing a hermeneuticist, Hirsch, who had some interesting thoughts about our ability to.find the meaning in important texts. One of his ideas was that it was important for the reader and the text to have the right "distance" from each other.
Too little challenge in the text, and the reader isn't forced to grow. Too much, and the reader is overwhelmed.
Basically, we all need stuff dumbed down to just the right degree.
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@AliceKnewI said
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But part of me felt it oversimplified or left out something important. I am not completely articulate what exactly.
"I've been considering this myself, as I had a similar feeling. So far, the main thing that I identify is that it doesn't really adequately address the use of power, especially as resistance to the attempted domination of one's Will by other forces. There's a lot about accepting, embracing, etc...but there's nothing that really affirms that pesky last bit of Liber Oz, which has historically been a big part of discussions on Thelema principles. And without that, for me, there's a gap between affirming ideals and being able to translate them into working ethics.
Being able to take that cosmic view and seeing the beauty/joy/humor in all things is important, and something to aspire to - don't get me wrong. But in the day to day, especially in societies where we are bombarded with constant attempts at manipulation and domination, we also need something that challenges us to develop the internal discipline and ethical clarity to deal with that in a way congruent with the Law. Without a realistic discussion of that, these kind of ideals very quickly slide to the level of "loving them in Jesus' name" or something similar.
I've enjoyed the thoughtful discussion on it, too, and it's been a good exercise. Thank you.
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I think the idea of the true will, and doing ones true will is the focus of Thelema. I believe this is an idea that transcends a lot of other ideas, jargon, ritual, and even the book of the law itself. It isn't necessary to make a religion out of it, not for everyone anyway.
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@Shadow Self said
"I think the idea of the true will, and doing ones true will is the focus of Thelema. I believe this is an idea that transcends a lot of other ideas, jargon, ritual, and even the book of the law itself. It isn't necessary to make a religion out of it, not for everyone anyway."
I like these words, yet I want to add that I fee it is required of the individual to make a religion out of him or her self. And that is the simple truth.