Thelemic Materialism (Thelemic Philosophy)
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@Los said
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I'm done with you for now. Feel free to write again when you've improved your abilities to read and remember."Really? You're done with me just right when I present you with a logical refutation which remains unanswered? Lol shocking.
As for my poor memory - well proof is recorded here - <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11328&start=550">viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11328&start=550</a><!-- l --> as the world can see you dont address posts that befuddle you and you find any attempt to avoid third value questions.
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@Legis said
"I have many stories.
I did share one with you - a less personal one.
When I shared that story with you, you didn't just call it "a bunch of improbable things happening" and nothing more.
Instead, you yourself seemed to find the story so improbable that you began retelling the story and changing the facts from my report so that they were more probabilistically explainable."
Is this your ghost story about someone you knew who was all worked up about religion and had talked herself into thinking an invisible creepy-crawly was "possessing" her? And then some coincidence happened where you thought she was in "trouble" and you called her up and it turned out that she had relapsed and talked herself into thinking the creepy crawly had returned on the same night that you were worried about her and had a scary dream?
Oh, em, gee!
If you recall, I didn't find the events of that story terribly improbable to begin with. It's not even that impressive a coincidence. Everyone's had wildly improbable coincidences.
I recall that I summarized your little story on that thread in explaining how it's not at all unusual for someone so severely mentally distressed to experience relapses and it's also not unusual for that person's friends to worry about that person, even well after she seems "cured." That the two events (your dream/worry and her relapse) happened on the same night is coincidental, but certainly not absurdly so and definitely not out of the realm of what we would expect to happen.
On that other thread, I was explaining this to you, and in doing so, I think I left out some detail of the original ghost story or overlooked something that was unimportant to the point I was making -- but was important to you and your emotional connection to the story -- so you freaked out and threw an hysterical conniption (and were probably muttering "Begone, slaver! My mind won't wear your chains" under your breath as you pounded out an indignant response on your keyboard).
On this thread, I've almost certainly left out a bunch of details of your ghost story as well, because I really don't remember it well, but I do remember that the main point was basically....wow, these two things happened on the same night...oh em gee, amazing! But it's not amazing.
I mean, even if I grant that your story is absolutely unbelievable and unexplainable by anything that anyone knows, it wouldn't demonstrate a thing. It wouldn't demonstrate, even slightly, that there really are "demons" floating around who just happen to possess people with unhealthy psychological attachment to wacky religious ideas.
"The little "guess the two words" experiment you agreed to do with Simon was entirely based on improbability. What would it have proven to you if he had guessed the correct two words despite the improbability?
Would it have suggested "an unknown causal factor whose effects are detectable to the degree that they violate probability"?
Yes, of course it would have! This was implicit in the design of the experiment you yourself created as a test!"
But if that guy had managed to guess the words, that wouldn't just have been some improbable happenstance occurring in the flow of everyday life. It would have been a measurable data point, obtained after we had taken precautions to rule out other (natural) means of that guy guessing the words.
If that same guy came up to me in daily life and said something offhand like, "Boy, you look happy today, Los. Looks like you're havin' a fine one!" and -- let's say for the sake of the ghost story -- I had just won money on a horse whose name is "Havin' a Fine One," some might say, "Oh em gee! Improbable coincidence! There are psychic powers!!!"
But of course, such an event wouldn't demonstrate anything because it's just more of the usual coincidences that happen to people all the time. I can recall dozens of weird coincidences that happen to me all the time in everyday life. Ever call someone and have it go to voicemail and then when you get off the phone you discover you have a voicemail from that person and when you compare notes with that person later it turns out that you were calling each other at the exact same time? Oh em gee! What are the odds?? Must be psychic powers, yo!
But the experiment we did on the other thread wasn't some random piece of happenstance. It was something very specific and steps had been taken to remove anything that could contribute to making the guess more likely (the words were chosen at random from a book, making it unlikely that the participant could guess what words that someone with my writing style might be likely to choose consciously).
Human brains are impressed by coincidence because we have pattern-recognizing functions hardwired into them. We're always looking for connections between events and broader causes, even when there are none.
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@ldfriend56 said
"I present you with a logical refutation"
You've presented nothing of the sort. You present tedious walls-of-words -- usually multiple-posted in response to the same point whenever your mind sees fit to vomit up, at intermittent intervals, whatever associations you feel like -- and you consistently misread and misinterpret points in ways that make each one of your sentences just incorrect enough that responding to the entire wall-of-words would be a serious chore.
And then you complain and stamp your little feet when I mostly ignore you.
I'm talking here about the content of your posts, not you. I've never really seen you contribute anything substantial to any conversation. I was mostly done with you in that other thread after you proudly declared that your post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious reasoning demonstrated your wacky claims about spirits having "healed" you. It's just not worth talking to such a tedious poster who literally refuses to understand how fallacious reasoning cannot demonstrate absurd claims.
Maybe you have presented a "logical refutation" somewhere in the latest wall-of-words, but I can't be bothered to slog through your awful prose to locate it. If you can't make your point clearly and simply, you don't have a point at all. Which you don't.
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Los,
Bottom line.
The fact is that you agree when creating experiments that outrageous improbability is a sufficient reason for accepting immaterially measureable causation. This was the structure of the experiment you and Simon performed. Yes, it failed to produce results.
But, just because you have not satisfied this criterion in your own experience doesn't give you the right to proclaim that I have not.
And that's really all there is to you: "I haven't experienced it, so you can't have either."
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@Uni_Verse said
"oldfriend56 you are my hero <3"
awww
Los is just a bully. He does the same thing all the 'pseudo skeptics' do they use online guerilla tactics and go around the web and do this. They always claim evidence and science blah blah blah, but when you apply the methods they claim to use, their arguments fall apart and they ignore any anti thesis to what they believe.
It truly is just for entertainment purposes
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@Los said
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@ldfriend56 said
"I present you with a logical refutation"Maybe you have presented a "logical refutation" somewhere in the latest wall-of-words, but I can't be bothered to slog through your awful prose to locate it. If you can't make your point clearly and simply, you don't have a point at all. Which you don't."
tsk tsk tsk. practicing deception again. fyi i love the 'wall of words' defense. that's a classic. I am sure context of things you have a hard time grasping might look like a wall of words, indeed and you may need things presented in a sentence or two, perhaps with a picture. Yes I am sure that would change everything.
maybe you should follow me a twitter?
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@Legis said
"The fact is that you agree when creating experiments that outrageous improbability is a sufficient reason for accepting immaterially measureable causation."
But it's not simply the improbability that makes it sufficient evidence. It's the fact that this improbability happens in a context where we took steps to remove, as much as possible, natural means for a correct guess to occur (including creating the situation of a "test" and not just waiting for one of the zillions of everyday coincidences to happen).
"But, just because you have not satisfied this criterion in your own experience doesn't give you the right to proclaim that I have not."
Correct. What gives me the right to proclaim that you have not is the fact that, despite your being asked again and again, you've said nothing that indicates you have actually detected something supernatural.
""I haven't experienced it, so you can't have either.""
Once more, my argument isn't simply based on personal experience. I've never personally "experienced" seeing an electron, but I have more than enough evidence to think that there are electrons.
The issue is evidence and argument. As I've been suggesting, anyone can objectively evaluate how good evidence and argument are in the context of claims, and no one has sufficient evidence to think that any of this supernatural stuff is real (in the sense of existing as anything other than make believe, fantasies, and honest-to-goodness mistakes in concluding what certain experiences were).
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@Los said
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But it's not simply the improbability that makes it sufficient evidence. It's the fact that this improbability happens in a context where we took steps to remove, as much as possible, natural means for a correct guess to occur (including creating the situation of a "test" and not just waiting for one of the zillions of everyday coincidences to happen)."Not all experience happens in laboratory-controlled conditions with confirming witnesses. That doesn't mean I am required to dismiss it for myself. You seem to believe that it does, but it does not. It only means that I have not and can not prove it to* someone else*. I accept and own that fact.
And I'm not trying to prove it to anyone. I'm simply asserting my fundamental human right to accept my own experiential evidence as valid despite the potential of those who were not there to eternally doubt that experiential evidence.
I believe in the power of an individual to experience and know the truth for themselves. I have chosen, take responsibility for, and own that belief. Indeed, it is the basis of Scientific Illuminism.
You just disagree with that possibility, instead seeming to prefer to let others ultimately decide for you what is real.
Specifically, when it comes to questioning the ultimate nature of Reality, I reject a belief in "objectivity" achieved by "consensus" as ultimately an agreed-upon bias. What is it but majority rule? And what is majority rule but many individuals determining the meaning of "objectivity" for themselves individually and outvoting those who disagree? Who gets to vote? What have they experienced? Are they closed-minded about experiences that they have not yet had? In this matter, objectivity by consensus? I think not. That's just majority-rule bias.
You seem to think I'm embarrassed by my statement. I'll repeat it:
"Begone, Slavior! My mind won't wear your chains. I am a free man."
@Legis said
"Just because you have not satisfied this criterion in your own experience doesn't give you the right to proclaim that I have not."
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There is insufficient evidence for imaginary germ goblins.
No one has good reason to believe in germs.
Handwashing is a silly superstition.
Semmelweis' research is baloney, and not accepted by the scientific community.
All consistent with Los' "logic" in 1850.
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@Crowley said
"All phenomena of which we are aware take place in our own minds, and therefore the only thing we have to look at is the mind; which is a more constant quantity over all the species of humanity than is generally supposed. What appear to be radical differences, irreconcilable by argument, are usually found to be due to the obstinacy of habit produced by generations of systematic sectarian training. "
OBSTINACY OF HABIT PRODUCED BY GENERATIONS OF SYSTEMATIC SECTARIAN TRAINING.
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Whether something is "correct/incorrect" is roughly translatable to "in accordance with confirmation bias/opposed to confirmation bias." Correct/incorrect is about as fallacious as good/evil.
This is the root of post hoc ergo propter hoc - one thing does not cause another, nor is there sufficient evidence to prove it. And the consciousness problem will be forever entwined with it, because the material world does not exist without some form of subjective bias and limitation (as far as we know - and knowing is a function of the mind).
True objectivity is false and does not exist, other than in theory. Anyone that truly understands the Book of the Law understands this.
Anything whatsoever that exists, and I DO MEAN EVERYTHING (Nuit), is filtered through the senses, and is inherently subjective (Hadit), as Crowley states above. No one can disagree with that statement logically.
Are our senses inherently biased? It isn't just a yes/no answer (the answer is yes, btw). Senses form qualitative (subjective) measurements - which are a matter of scale. Then we can count numbers and find PROBABILITY and CORRELATIONS - but never the CAUSE. Sorry 'bout that. Learn the Latin before we use it.
To what degree are the senses biased to a POV? Is the POV capable of change? This is what magick is all about and these are the "real" questions when it comes to being able to "cause change to occur in accordance with will." These two questions are very related to two of the four "magical weapons." Hate to bring up magick, but where are we again?
What is seriously entertaining is that one could claim to understand Thelema, and talk about materialism, yet only see things through one lens that panders to their "correct" bias. That's why I view these conversations as extremely elementary - these points are so insignificant - and they are usually realized as insignificant early on from an initiatic POV...
What is this topic about? Thelemic materialism? Otherwise, why is it on a Thelemic forum and not a DeVry University website for their Philosophy 101 class?
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@Legis said
"Not all experience happens in laboratory-controlled conditions with confirming witnesses. That doesn't mean I am required to dismiss it for myself. You seem to believe that it does, but it does not. It only means that I have not and can not prove it to* someone else*."
You also can't demonstrate it to yourself, either. That's the point: you just decided for no good reason that these events were caused by something supernatural. If I'm remembering your ghost story more or less correctly, nothing about those events suggests that anything supernatural was going on.
"I'm simply asserting my fundamental human right to accept my own experiential evidence as valid"
Of course your experience was valid. It happened to you. It's the conclusion that you're forming on the basis of that experience that I'm questioning.
And of course you have every right to leap to an unjustified conclusion. But you at least ought to be aware why many others will point and laugh if you say these conclusions out loud.
"You [...] prefer to let others ultimately decide for you what is real. [...] "objectivity" achieved by "consensus" * ultimately an agreed-upon bias. What is it but majority rule?"
No, you misunderstand my position. When I say "objective conclusion," I'm not talking about consensus. I'm talking about a conclusion formed by validly applying reason to evidence and leaving aside preference (such as your preference to think that your experience was something supernatural or your preference for thinking that consciousness is at the root of all).
For example, when I examine how I'm feeling and determine that I'm hungry, I can objectively determine that I'm hungry. "Objective," in this context, doesn't mean "majority rule." I don't need other people to vote for me to know that I'm objectively hungry: I just look at the evidence and apply reason to it validly, leaving aside any of my preferences. It doesn't matter how I might feel about my being hungry or whether I want to be hungry: when the evidence suggests I am, then I can objectively determine that I am.
In contrast, when you leap to supernatural conclusions, you're not being objective at all because nothing about the evidence leads to those conclusions, and the thing that's driving those conclusions is your preference for the ooky-spooky. If you objectively examined the evidence, you wouldn't be having this problem.
Hint: the proper practice of Thelema is learning how to objectively look at your True Self. Training your mind to look at all issues objectively is part of the training.
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[Sigh...] More reconstructed, mischaracterized, Straw Man nonsense from the "objective" one.
I tell you what, I'm gonna pass on today. Maybe later.
Be sure to objectively characterize me as "childishly stamping off."
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@Frater 639 said
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True objectivity is false and does not exist, other than in theory. Anyone that truly understands the Book of the Law understands this."
Hmmm, I would not say that 'true objectivity' does not exist, but rather 'pure' objectivity is generally unavailable. Although it may be unavailable, it would not necessarily mean that it's not a worthwhile ideal or target to reach for. Mathematics gives us enough objectivity to accomplish what we need and is distinguishable by poetry.
Objectivity only means anything in relationship to subjectivity.
Just like we never get pure 'yang' isolated in one environment and pure 'yin' isolated in another, there is a constant dance between objective and subjective and it depends upon how much weight is being applied to each.
Because, like you mention, all reality gets filtered through our nervous system, we are really just studying our own nervous systems in relationship to physical sciences. However, inside of this data set - there will be shared information (one data set shard for all) mixed with and layered through subjective information (personal ideas, feelings, POV, etc)
This is how I find the issues in science and philosophy around consciousness to be so fascinating, because consciousness is literally pure subjectivity and in principle, hidden from the objective sciences.
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Anything whatsoever that exists, and I DO MEAN EVERYTHING (Nuit), is filtered through the senses, and is inherently subjective (Hadit), as Crowley states above. No one can disagree with that statement logically. "and some information that gets filtered through the senses is shared information that gets filtered through ALL senses given the same circumstances.
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Are our senses inherently biased? It isn't just a yes/no answer (the answer is yes, btw). Senses form qualitative (subjective) measurements - which are a matter of scale. Then we can count numbers and find PROBABILITY and CORRELATIONS - but never the CAUSE. Sorry 'bout that. Learn the Latin before we use it.
To what degree are the senses biased to a POV? Is the POV capable of change? This is what magick is all about and these are the "real" questions when it comes to being able to "cause change to occur in accordance with will." These two questions are very related to two of the four "magical weapons." Hate to bring up magick, but where are we again?
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I agree with this here. Yes our POV can change and even states of what appear to be pure objective consciousness are available at higher states of awareness.
All sentient beings throughout the universe must share ONE thing in common, indeed they MUST share one thing in common and this 'sorting' is the only thing we can say is truly objective. All sentient beings have 'shared' information they hold as 'true' (think of truth here to mean 'physical existence'), personal information which filters the shared information (our 'inner life', feelings and ideas) and most importantly MYSTERY or the third value where the boundaries between shared and personal are vague and one is faced with information that is truly unknown.
So one could say that the objective universe is comprised of points of view that sort data by TRUE, FALSE, and MYSTERY relative to their POV.
True, False, and Mystery are eternal and objective
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@ldfriend56 said
"Hmmm, I would not say that 'true objectivity' does not exist, but rather 'pure' objectivity is generally unavailable. Although it may be unavailable, it would not necessarily mean that it's not a worthwhile ideal or target to reach for. Mathematics gives us enough objectivity to accomplish what we need and is distinguishable by poetry."
Ok. I understand what you mean here. I'm using this definition from Wikipedia, when I refer to objectivity:
@wikipedia said
"Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings. A proposition is generally considered objectively true (to have objective truth) when its truth conditions are met and are "mind-independent"—that is, existing freely or independently from a mind (from the thoughts, feelings, ideas, etc. of a sentient subject)."
I think "pure" objectivity is just as spooky-ooky (or whatever) as goblins. We can theorize that something exists without perception, but that's about it. And, as you pointed out, we Kant tell for sure without involving subjectivity.
We seem to be on the same page here:
@ldfriend56 said
"Objectivity only means anything in relationship to subjectivity.
Just like we never get pure 'yang' isolated in one environment and pure 'yin' isolated in another, there is a constant dance between objective and subjective and it depends upon how much weight is being applied to each."
So, relativism, in a way...
@ldfriend56 said
"All sentient beings throughout the universe must share ONE thing in common, indeed they MUST share one thing in common and this 'sorting' is the only thing we can say is truly objective. All sentient beings have 'shared' information they hold as 'true' (think of truth here to mean 'physical existence'), personal information which filters the shared information (our 'inner life', feelings and ideas) and most importantly MYSTERY or the third value where the boundaries between shared and personal are vague and one is faced with information that is truly unknown.So one could say that the objective universe is comprised of points of view that sort data by TRUE, FALSE, and MYSTERY relative to their POV."
Well, I don't want to get caught up in semantics, but I think intersubjectivity is the proper term: where the relations and perspectives are shared. Based on perception, my "truth" (read "assertation of event/evaluation of phenomena involving the senses") is mine, your truth is yours, and our truth is ours. Outside perception nothing exists, and if it does, you cannot prove it.
Of course, that MYSTERY to me is "potential." So, instead of moving it into a three value system, I like to break it down this way:
Truth = subjective phenomenon multiplied by magnitude (degree of belief in subjective phenomenon) minus intersubjective phenomenon multiplied by magnitude.
Basically, this "subjective minus intersubjective" value balances the "inner" and "outer" phenomenon - when things become balanced, there is no difference between "within and without".
See Hobson's AIM model, if you want to see the medical basis used for this formula. Note: Hobson's model and further research (his books) have a lot to do with non-linear states of consciousness, "interior" activity, etc., not just dreaming.
www.willcov.com/bio-consciousness/diagrams/Consciousness%20Model%20-%20Hobsons%20AIM%20Model.htm
Anyway, this is all divided by duration (time) that this "truth" belief value is held.
I'll PM you the actual proof that I've written, if you'd like to see it.
Anyway, these individual "truth" values are either shared or not. The values that are shared between POVs are intersubjective truths (that can also last a given duration). These truths could be considered "objective," but, again, I think the more definitive term would be intersubjective.
Then, going further, the negative side, or value "left over", that are not shared truths, or even individual truths, are "potential" IMHO.
So we have: Potential, Intersubjective, Subjective.
Nuit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Hadit.
Outside/around the head, heart, genitalia.
See Liber V.Just another interpretation, I guess. What do you think? Also, thanks for the link that you left above...
[P.S. I'm going to keep resorting back to Thelema, since that's the title of the thread]
Thanks for the feedback! Let's keep it going - this is FUN!
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@Frater 639 said
"Let's keep it going - this is FUN!
."Okay let's do it
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Ok. I understand what you mean here. I'm using this definition from Wikipedia, when I refer to objectivity:
Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings. A proposition is generally considered objectively true (to have objective truth) when its truth conditions are met and are "mind-independent"—that is, existing freely or independently from a mind (from the thoughts, feelings, ideas, etc. of a sentient subject).
I think "pure" objectivity is just as spooky-ooky (or whatever) as goblins. We can theorize that something exists without perception, but that's about it. And, as you pointed out, we Kant tell for sure without involving subjectivity.
"Objectivity can be understood as 'without bias' how I use the term. I think the Wiki definition is reasonable, especially for journalism and science. "Objective" is also a hot button word, many philosophers don't like the term and quite often college students get irate when it's used. So we can look at objective as 'without bias' and subjective as 'with bias'.
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Well, I don't want to get caught up in semantics, but I think intersubjectivity is the proper term: where the relations and perspectives are shared. Based on perception, my "truth" (read "assertation of event/evaluation of phenomena involving the senses") is mine, your truth is yours, and our truth is ours. Outside perception nothing exists, and if it does, you cannot prove it."Well, it depends upon how it is used. Personally I do not like the term intersubjectivity because the word removes the 'dialectic' which 'objective/subjective' contains - and I love dialectics.
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Of course, that MYSTERY to me is "potential." So, instead of moving it into a three value system, I like to break it down this way:
Truth = subjective phenomenon multiplied by magnitude (degree of belief in subjective phenomenon) minus intersubjective phenomenon multiplied by magnitude.
Basically, this "subjective minus intersubjective" value balances the "inner" and "outer" phenomenon - when things become balanced, there is no difference between "within and without".
See Hobson's AIM model, if you want to see the medical basis used for this formula. Note: Hobson's model and further research (his books) have a lot to do with non-linear states of consciousness, "interior" activity, etc., not just dreaming.
www.willcov.com/bio-consciousness/diagrams/Consciousness%20Model%20-%20Hobsons%20AIM%20Model.htm
Anyway, this is all divided by duration (time) that this "truth" belief value is held."
Hmmm, for fun I will put my ternary process into Thelema and Liber Al
NUIT = the Objective Material Universe, our 'shared' environment. a Continual counting of '1' to infinity which contains no final number (1,1,1 am I not the ox, and none by the book?). The objective universe is ONE environment for ALL (points, Hadit). We all have access to this ONE environment and the information in this one environment is shared by all. This is the 'world' of the objective sciences who study the ONE environment. Science is nothing more than the worship of NUIT. We can see than an infinite and eternal material universe is also a shared MYSTERY for ALL but yet continually reveals new discovery and understanding that becomes our shared 'objective' understanding of Nuit through the progress of the physical sciences.
HADIT = the individual Subjective (and spiritual!) universe. The world of feelings, visions, dreams, ideals but also delusion, deception.(there is great danger in me). Our private universe is HIDDEN from all other points of view. So while your subjective universe is MYSTERY to me, my subjective universe is TRUTH to me (and me only). Hadit as ONE point brings ART to the SCIENCE of the physical universe (Nuit) and therefore we can understand the relationship of ART and SCIENCE to be a child of the relationship between NUIT and HADIT in our progress as a species.
Using Liber Al as the metaphor here, we can see that the objective universe (Nuit) is nothing more than an infinite number of points (Hadit, sentience) supporting her existence through the progress of the arts and sciences historically speaking.
So we have the 'dialectic' in thelema between Nuit and Hadit, Objective and Subjective, Art and Science, both of which are contained in each of us through all of us.
So what about the third value in Liber Al?
RHK = Mystery, potential manifesting NOW in our historical progress, struggling within the dialectic of Nuit and Hadit, indeed becoming aware of this dialectic as a species. RHK is BOTH Nuit and Hadit, at once. Or, Mystery is BOTH True, AND False, simultaneously.
There may not be 'pure' objectivity - but there is certainly 'pure' mystery.
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I'll PM you the actual proof that I've written, if you'd like to see it."
Please do! I actually work with dialectics as a platform developer for mediation and conflict resolution. I am quite big on them and love all ternary systems that address them (hence my fascination with Liber Al)
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Anyway, these individual "truth" values are either shared or not. The values that are shared between POVs are intersubjective truths (that can also last a given duration). These truths could be considered "objective," but, again, I think the more definitive term would be intersubjective."
yes, that is quite the common preference, but it is just semantics. I just dont like intersubjectivity because there is no balance with 'interobjectivity' and I am a freak on perfect couplings
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Then, going further, the negative side, or value "left over", that are not shared truths, or even individual truths, are "potential" IMHO."
well to me MYSTERY is when there is no distinction between personal and shared, the true and the false, art and science - they are both simultaneous and there 'is no truth here' until Nuit and Hadit can become unraveled and distinguished by us as a species (which according to this model, never ends - a continual Mystery that continually reveals science and inspires art).
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So we have: Potential, Intersubjective, Subjective.
Nuit, Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Hadit.
Outside/around the head, heart, genitalia.
See Liber V.Just another interpretation, I guess. What do you think? "
Well it's ternary and we are referencing similar things, I just have a preference for ternary systems that have the formula of 1 + - 1 = 0, or Yin + Yang = Wu Chi/Tao (or something like this). I like to see the 'dance of the opposites' in a ternary system so we can see that the synthesis, child, or even parent of the coupling. I accept this as a formula of the universe that is shared and objective, just hidden and mysterious until it is discovered.
The Subject and Object dance is still a real phenomenon. But like you said it is semantics, and I know that 'objective' is often a polarized word that many Kant stand seeing. But I think it's because we are holding the ideal of 'objective' (which by nature is almost never reachable) as the actuality so I also understand the problem many have with it.
Ironically, in ternary logic, we have 1 = true, 2 = false, and 0 = unknown - which coincidentally supports the Nuit Hadit attribution I am applying as well as in order of chapters in liber al
- even cooler (lol projection by myself) in the philosophy of math, the ordering and counting principle of the numbers 1 and 2 also are truly 'objective' manifestations of this principle. I can explain if your interested.I've probably done a rush job of explaining this model, and not the most complete summary, but I can go on here if your interested. It's actually a very neat and nested process, to me of course
- but I love being able to explain it to someone else 'objectively' as a practice. Ha! -
@Los said
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In contrast, when you leap to supernatural conclusions, you're not being objective at all because nothing about the evidence leads to those conclusions, and the thing that's driving those conclusions is your preference for the ooky-spooky. If you objectively examined the evidence, you wouldn't be having this problem."Lol, this is both true and false
Problem is Los is that while this is true in one sense, it's invalid and inconsistent when you're using a bivalent True vs False framework. One can very easily have a profound mystical experience, say they experience leaving the body, floating around the room, and then return to their body. Just like your hunger metaphor, one can assume, objectively, that they left their body and then returned. Any assumptions about what this means can all be possible, and be kept in the 'unknown' category, but objectively, someone can still say that they left their body because they looked down from the top of the ceiling and saw their body lying there. Fyi, I can say this. This would happen to me quite often as a child, and I have clear memories of the experience to this day. It's probably what lead me to explore these kind of things because at a young age, I can certainly say I left my body and returned. I dont know what the 'I' is or how this was possible, but I do know sir that I left my body!
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Hint: the proper practice of Thelema is learning how to objectively look at your True Self. Training your mind to look at all issues objectively is part of the training."
I dont know if this is the proper practice of thelema or not, but I actually AGREE with this and there is an experience of 'pure objectivity' about self and universe that is available. Ironically however, I can say this only from experience!
EDIT: When one can see themselves objectively, this is only because they can also see themselves subjectively at the same time while observing the MYSTERY or third value
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@ldfriend56 said
"One can very easily have a profound mystical experience, say they experience leaving the body, floating around the room, and then return to their body. Just like your hunger metaphor, one can assume, objectively, that they left their body and then returned."
No, the objective conclusion is that the person has had an experience that seemed like he was leaving his body.
This is where the comparison to hunger breaks down: "hunger" is a label for an entirely internal feeling. Paying attention to one's internal feelings is more than sufficient for demonstrating that one is hungry. But "leaving the body and traveling around" isn't (supposed to be) a label for a similar kind of internal feeling or daydream -- the implication of the label is that one really has gone outside of the body and is capable of perceiving things (like, say, things in the next room) that, under a typical understanding of the way stuff works, that person shouldn't be able to perceive by sitting still with his eyes closed.
If all you mean is "I had a dream where it seemed like I left my body," I wouldn't bother questioning that at all. But if what you're saying is that you really did, honestly and truly, leave your body, then just observing your own experience doesn't furnish you with sufficient evidence to make that claim.
If you really left your body, then you would be able to "astral travel" into the house next door where a neutral third party has printed two random words from a book on a piece of paper, read the words, return to your body, and report the words to another neutral third party who stays with your body. You would be able to do this over and over again, to the degree that it would be obvious that this isn't some daydream you had -- it would be crystal clear that you really did leave your body and really were gaining new information that you couldn't have had otherwise.
But nobody can do that. Because "astral travel" seems to be the rough equivalent of having a strong daydream.
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The Ganzfeld experiments have demonstrated exactly this repeatedly.
The current objection among the scientific community is that it challenges the materialistic paradigm they believe in.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"The Ganzfeld experiments have demonstrated exactly this repeatedly."
No, they haven't. They're ill-designed and stupid.
These are the ridiculous "tests" where subjects try to demonstrate psychic powers by babbling until something they say seems like it resembles something in a videotape playing in another room or something. It's utterly ridiculous. By having them try to "see" something with so many variables, open to interpretation, the "experiment" is worthless.
Here's a good revision: put the subjects in a room, and next door are twenty signs numbered one through twenty. Have someone go into the other room and turn all of the signs around except one (so that only one number is visible). Have all the test subjects try to guess that one number.
Do that thousands of times. Call me when you get something that seems like anything more than rolling a d20 for days.....