Thelemic Materialism (Thelemic Philosophy)
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So we both agree that there is a non material world of imagination and ideas."
Depends on what you mean. Concepts and ideas are real things and we can't poke them with a stick, so they're obviously "non material" in one sense.
But on the other hand, we know that these concepts and ideas emerge from electrical activity in physical brains and are stored in physical brains. Further, we have no reason to suppose that these things do -- or even could -- exist apart from material brains. So they're not "non material" in the sense of being utterly separate from material.
As ever, it depends on the meaning of the words being used. Which is exactly why it's so unproductive to try to reduce everything to fortune cookie sayings.
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So are we back to your tautology, that only the material is material?
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So are we back to your tautology, that only the material is material?"
Look, buddy, if you're interested in having a serious, grown up conversation, you have to stop talking in riddles and fortune cookies.
You asked me if we both think that a non-material world exists, and I explained that it depends on what you mean by that. If your implication is that there is some world other than the material one -- in the sense of being an entirely separate world that doesn't depend on the material world -- then there is insufficient evidence to think that this is the case.
Nothing about what I've said there is a "tautology," and the only way to pretend that it is is to reduce these complicated and nuanced ideas to misleading fortune-cookie summaries and try to talk about your fortune cookies instead of the actual conversation.
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I never said anything of the sort.
All I'm saying is that we both agree that imaginary goblins are real.
All we need for evidence is that it is detectable to at least one person.
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@Los said
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@Legis said
"I think it would be good to try to get to the most concise statement of the idea. Something like:"That which exists is detectable.""
Well, the problem here is that what we're talking about is complicated enough that trying to condense it into fortune-cookie type sayings is inevitably going to lead to misunderstandings.
If we're talking about what humans are justified in accepting as existent -- speaking in practical terms, in the context of useful knowledge -- then I would say that "Someone is justified in accepting as existent that which is detectable, once the person in question has sufficient evidence for thinking the thing in question has been detected."
In that case, maybe we could use your fortune cookie statement as a brief summary of that concept.
But if we're talking about "exist" in the sense of being some real ontological object -- in the sense that it's possible for something to exist in another dimension, such that no human could ever possibly detect it -- then no, your fortune cookie statement wouldn't be sufficient.
In such a case -- where we're talking about, let's say, some being that inhabits another dimension that no human has ever detected and that no human, no matter what any human ever does, could ever possibly detect that being, ever -- I would argue that such a being, "existent" though it may be in some sense, is, from the perspective of humans, completely and totally indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist and that humans are more than justified as treating it as something that doesn't exist.
I don't think it particularly helps the conversation to try to boil these complex ideas into sentences of monosyllabic words."
That's kind of your problem, Los.
You tend to act as if it's so simple.
In the end, however, you can't state it simply and feel the need to make disclaimers about other dimensions and detectability (and we haven't gotten yet to what's "sufficiently" detectable).
@Los said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So are we back to your tautology, that only the material is material?"Look, buddy, if you're interested in having a serious, grown up conversation, you have to stop talking in riddles and fortune cookies.
"Av is already jumping ahead to your standards for "detectablity."
This is how the conversation you are attempting to avoid goes:
"Only that which is detectable may be said to be real."
"Can things that are not matter or energy be detected?"
"No. There is insufficient evidence for anything that is not detectable as matter or energy."
"So, only matter and/or energy are able to be detected?"
"Yes."
*"So only matter and/or energy may be said to be 'real.'" *
"Yes."
"But only matter and/or energy are detectable by that standard."
"Yes."
"So only that which is detectable (matter and/or energy) may be said to be real (matter and/or energy)."=* "Only matter and energy may be said to be matter and energy."*
= "Only the material is material."
Closed logical loop.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"I never said anything of the sort.
All I'm saying is that we both agree that imaginary goblins are real."
Sure, but they're real acts of make believe, not real honest-to-goodness beings in the sense that my dog is an honest-to-goodness being.
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@Legis said
"This is how the conversation you are attempting to avoid goes"
See? You have a script in your head about how I should be arguing. The fact that I don't argue this way -- that is, the fact that I don't agree with many of the statements you're trying to put in my mouth -- infuriates you because you can't pull out your canned responses.
Here, let's look at your script:
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[Imaginary Los:]"Only that which is detectable may be said to be real."
[Imaginary Legis:]"Can things that are not matter or energy be detected?"
[Imaginary Los:]"No. There is insufficient evidence for anything that is not detectable as matter or energy."
[Imaginary Legis:]"So, only matter and/or energy are able to be detected?"
[Imaginary Los:]"Yes.""I would broadly agree with the first statement you attribute to me ("Only that which is detectable may be said to be real"...that is, humans can only validly claim to think that something is real if they have reason to think that it is detectable and has been detected by someone).
I would not at all answer your first question above with the second line you attribute to me. In answer to your question, "Can things that are not matter or energy be detected?" I would say, "I don't have any reason to think that anybody has ever detected anything that's not matter or energy, so your question doesn't make sense."
Before you can ask me about the properties of things that aren't ultimately reducible to matter or energy, we have to establish what in the world we're talking about. I'm not aware of any such thing that actually exists and can be shown to be not reducible to matter or energy. Are you?
In other words, I'm not starting from the dogmatic, axiomatic position that only matter/energy is detectable. I'm starting from the position that before someone can accept that something exists, that person has to have reason to think that it is detectable and has been detected by someone. So far, the only things that humans have ever detected appear to be physical/material (i.e. matter/energy in some combination).
I'm not declaring that there are absolutely no things that are not matter/energy, nor am I declaring that it is impossible to detect something that isn't matter/energy...I'm just pointing out that nobody has ever detected anything that isn't matter/energy, as far as we can tell. In fact, I'm not even sure what you have in mind when you talk about something that's not matter/energy in some combination...if you could give a specific example of what you're talking about, it would be easier to have a conversation because, right now, I'm not quite sure it even makes sense.
Again, this is a big problem for you: you're so focused on the script in your head -- and trying to fault me for deviating from the way you think the conversation should go (i.e. in a direction that you think you can "win") that you're overlooking the actual positions I'm advancing.
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@Los said
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
" Sure, but they're real acts of make believe, not real honest-to-goodness beings in the sense that my dog is an honest-to-goodness being."
"Yes, they're real in different ways.
An idea is much more real than a dog in the sense that it can have a much greater impact on the world. A dog is more real in the sense that it has more hair.
And our personal identity is just an idea (it's imagined, our consciousness is not a physical entity, like our bodies). So it's fair to say that a goblin is as real as "you" or "me".
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@Los said
"In other words, I'm not starting from the dogmatic, axiomatic position that only matter/energy is detectable. I'm starting from the position that before someone can accept that something exists, that person has to have reason to think that it is detectable and has been detected by someone. So far, the only things that humans have ever detected appear to be physical/material (i.e. matter/energy in some combination)."
"The only things that humans have ever detected appear to be physical/material (i.e. matter/energy in some combination)."
That's false. I "detect" all kinds of things that you refuse to accept as something "humans have ever detected."
To be correct, it would have to say, "...the only things that I [Los] accept that humans have ever detected..."
It begs the question of what*** you personally accept as "detected,"*** the standards of which I have attempted to illustrate in the above imaginary conversation since you refuse to own up to what is patently obvious.
Just because you don't want to be confined to the very logical conclusions of your own argument does not mean that others cannot correctly do so.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"An idea is much more real than a dog in the sense that it can have a much greater impact on the world. A dog is more real in the sense that it has more hair."
Maybe, but I wouldn't say that an idea itself can have an impact on the world...it's the processes of spreading those ideas and it's the actions that people take on the basis of those ideas that impact the world...the idea itself isn't an agent of any of that impact.
"And our personal identity is just an idea (it's imagined, our consciousness is not a physical entity, like our bodies). So it's fair to say that a goblin is as real as "you" or "me"."
In the sense of having-the-property-of-a-relatively-coherent-identity, a made up creature can indeed have that property, just like a human can. But in other sense of, say, having the ability to go down to the store and buy me a sandwich, a made up creature cannot have that property in the same way that a human can.
What's happening here is that you're trying to conflate a few different uses of the word "real." The word real can denote that which is detectable -- in which we can say imaginary things are real acts of imagination -- but the word has another definition in which it's used to contrast things not created by the imagination with things created by the imagination. We're all familiar with that definition. We all know that a new movie of Aleister Crowley's life with Brad Pitt in the lead isn't really coming out, despite the fact that I'm picturing it right now and it could be said to be a real imaginary thing inside my head.
You can't confuse the two meanings.
Take Darth Vader, as an example. Vader has an identity and a relatively consistent characterization (as long as we ignore those awful prequel movies), so in that sense we could say he's a "person" just like me, but he's an imaginary person, not a real person (using the second sense of "real"). He can't do the kinds of things that real (in the second sense) people can do, like pick up the book that's next to me right now.
And in a similar way, your make believe goblin buddies can't help you find money in the street.
If I picture Darth Vader in my mind, that's a real (first sense) mental image of him. If I go to a movie with him in it, there's really a collection of lights on the screen that form a real moving picture of Darth Vader doing stuff. That moving picture causes my brain to imagine him doing these things and to imagine what he's doing when he's not on screen, and those are all real acts of make believe.
But Vader isn't real (second sense) at all because he's entirely the product of imagination and only exists as imagination. He's not an autonomous being who can stroll up and down the movie theater aisles and go out to the lobby to buy me a soda.
All of this is perfectly obvious, but you insist on confusing yourself and twisting yourself up into mental pretzels, all because you're trying to hold on to this odious idea that if you can play with words in a slippery enough way, you'll somehow justify claims like talking to goblins can make you find money in the street. It's just silly.
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@Legis said
" I "detect" all kinds of things that you refuse to accept as something "humans have ever detected.""
Like what?
"It begs the question of what*** you personally accept as "detected,"*** the standards of which I have attempted to illustrate in the above imaginary conversation since you refuse to own up to what is patently obvious."
I told you already, there are objective standards that are going to vary depending on the exact claim, evidence, and argument that connects the evidence to the claim. But for every set of claim, evidence, and argument, we can objectively determine whether the evidence and argument are sufficient to support the claim. The evaluation has nothing to do with what I, you, or any particular person feels about the claim under discussion...it has everything to do with whether or not the evidence and argument are objectively sufficient.
Now maybe we won't agree on whether the evidence is sufficient -- just like maybe we won't all agree on what the answer is to the calculus problem we all do -- but there still is an objective answer, despite the fact that some people are objectively bad at performing the operations.
Here's a great chance for us to make our discussion more specific. Name one thing that you think you detected that you're pretty sure I won't accept. Explain what evidence leads you to think that it really was the thing you thought it was (and not, say, a figment of your imagination).
We'll look at it objectively together.
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" Maybe, but I wouldn't say that an idea itself can have an impact on the world...it's the processes of spreading those ideas and it's the actions that people take on the basis of those ideas that impact the world...the idea itself isn't an agent of any of that impact."
Sure, you need a hand to lift a glass of water. But where does the hand get the idea?
" In the sense of having-the-property-of-a-relatively-coherent-identity, a made up creature can indeed have that property, just like a human can. But in other sense of, say, having the ability to go down to the store and buy me a sandwich, a made up creature cannot have that property in the same way that a human can."
A human needs a body to do it. An ego can't walk to the store and buy a sandwich. An ego is a made up creature. A made up creature would similarly require a body to walk to the store.
" What's happening here is that you're trying to conflate a few different uses of the word "real." The word real can denote that which is detectable -- in which we can say imaginary things are real acts of imagination -- but the word has another definition in which it's used to contrast things not created by the imagination with things created by the imagination. We're all familiar with that definition. We all know that a new movie of Aleister Crowley's life with Brad Pitt in the lead isn't really coming out, despite the fact that I'm picturing it right now and it could be said to be a real imaginary thing inside my head.
You can't confuse the two meanings."
I'm not confused. I think you are:
"My position, on the particular issue that we're discussing, is that the physical world demonstrably exists and that -- at least at the moment -- there is insufficient evidence to think that any worlds beside the physical world exist (that is to say, there is insufficient evidence to think that there are some "spirit" worlds or "astral" worlds)."
"Take Darth Vader, as an example. Vader has an identity and a relatively consistent characterization (as long as we ignore those awful prequel movies), so in that sense we could say he's a "person" just like me, but he's an imaginary person, not a real person (using the second sense of "real"). He can't do the kinds of things that real (in the second sense) people can do, like pick up the book that's next to me right now.
And in a similar way, your make believe goblin buddies can't help you find money in the street.
If I picture Darth Vader in my mind, that's a real (first sense) mental image of him. If I go to a movie with him in it, there's really a collection of lights on the screen that form a real moving picture of Darth Vader doing stuff. That moving picture causes my brain to imagine him doing these things and to imagine what he's doing when he's not on screen, and those are all real acts of make believe.
But Vader isn't real (second sense) at all because he's entirely the product of imagination and only exists as imagination. He's not an autonomous being who can stroll up and down the movie theater aisles and go out to the lobby to buy me a soda."
No, but Vader is detectable by way more people than you or me.
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All of this is perfectly obvious, but you insist on confusing yourself and twisting yourself up into mental pretzels, all because you're trying to hold on to this odious idea that if you can play with words in a slippery enough way, you'll somehow justify claims like talking to goblins can make you find money in the street. It's just silly."But your imaginary ego can help me find money in the street, if you happen to know where the money is, right?
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@Los said
"We'll look at it objectively together."
Righhhhht....
You will "objectively" hold it to your personal standard for "sufficient evidence" that "objectively" denies any cause, effect, or acausal connection that cannot be "detected" or explained in terms of material substance.
Thanks, but I think I'll pass on the offer of your particular brand of objectivity.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Sure, you need a hand to lift a glass of water. But where does the hand get the idea?"
The idea of a glass, the knowledge of the function of glasses, and the knowledge that turning that doo-hickey on the sink makes water come out of the tap are all concepts in the brain. But none of those things cause me to fill up a glass and take a drink. We might say that they are necessary but not sufficient conditions of my filling up a glass and taking a drink.
The thing that causes me to take a drink is my True Will, and the True Will isn't an idea.
"Vader is detectable by way more people than you or me."
And thus he's "real" in the sense of the first definition I gave above, but not "real" in the sense of the second definition. Exactly as I said above.
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@Los said
"All of this is perfectly obvious, but you insist on confusing yourself and twisting yourself up into mental pretzels, all because you're trying to hold on to this odious idea that if you can play with words in a slippery enough way, you'll somehow justify claims like talking to goblins can make you find money in the street. It's just silly."But your imaginary ego can help me find money in the street, if you happen to know where the money is, right?"
I sure can, because I really am external to you and in possession of knowledge that you are not. Your imaginary friends aren't. You're making them up, which is why they can't give you any practical knowledge that you don't already have.
Don't you remember that little experiment we did on the forums a while back where one of the regulars here tried to "remote view" a piece of paper I had on my desk with random words printed on it? He failed miserably, and if we ran that test dozens of more times, he'd fail dozens of more times because this supernatural malarkey is make believe and incapable of giving you practical, confirmable information that you didn't already have or couldn't have already guessed on your own.
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@Legis said
"You will "objectively" hold it to your personal standard for "sufficient evidence""
No, we'll talk it through and determine whether or not the evidence you have was sufficient.
If you're not comfortable using your own experience, we can use someone else's, like Ray Comfort's claim that Jesus Christ spoke to him late at night and turned his life around.
Earlier on this thread, I made up an example of someone claiming that aliens took his keys and trying to support it by reporting his daydreams. There's an example of evidence that is objectively insufficient to support a claim. It doesn't matter what you, I, or he thinks about his claim...he's objectively wrong in thinking that he has sufficient evidence, and we can demonstrate it.
In the same way, we can demonstrate that Comfort objectively has insufficient evidence to conclude that he really detected Jesus, and I suspect that if you were willing to explain your evidence and reasoning for whatever it is that you think you detected, we would quickly see that in the same way you objectively have insufficient evidence to make the claims that you do.
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Los,
It will always boil down to the difference between your preference to accept an explanation that relies on astronomical improbabilities versus my preference to accept an explanation that relies on a materially undetectable causal factor.
As I have said before, one may only experience so many occurrences of astronomical improbability before one logically begins to doubt the pure randomness upon which probability relies to be a sufficient explanation.
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@Legis said
"...according to your personal standards... "
This is a weird position you're taking. Are you implying that it is impossible for anyone to ever draw objective conclusions?
What about when your doctor tells you that you have a disease and that you need X treatment? Do you say, "Bah! How dare you apply your personal standards to me! Every person is an unique individual, and I will not be subjected to your subjective standards of 'health!' Begone, slaver! Let fire from heaven cleanse this space, for it is only for the free!! Huzzah!!!"
I mean, do you think it's actually impossible for medical experts to sit down, examine the evidence and conclude, as objectively as possible, that person A has disease Y and needs either treatment Q, R, or S?
If you're right, and if we apply what you say consistently, it would mean that all conclusions of any kind are merely the results of "personal standards" and that nobody has any claim ever to be objectively correct, and thus all conclusions are more or less equivalent, and we might as well be picking conclusions out of a hat.
But if that's true, how do you explain the vast technological progress that we've made by consistently applying evidence-based inquiry? Obviously, the conclusions that people have been drawing about the world around us must be correct enough so as to allow us to manipulate reality in miraculous ways (such as, for obvious example, enabling us to send messages around the world by pressing a few keys on a machine in the comfort of our homes or offices). That would seem to suggest that not all conclusions are created equal and that not all conclusions are merely the result of "personal standards"...there must be some way to evaluate claims as objectively as possible (that is, to remove personal bias from the analysis as much as possible).
I'm sorry to say, Legis, it comes off sounding like you're very selective how you apply these arguments. When someone presents a position you don't want to believe -- presumably because it contradicts the ideas that give you the warm and fuzzies -- you dismiss it as "personal standards" and subjective...but when it comes to practical matters of actual import -- such as your health -- I'll bet you actually do act as if it's possible for someone to come to objective conclusions about your health that aren't just motivated by "personal standards."
It's completely dishonest, and anyone who pays even partway attention can see that this is what you're doing.
As ever, our conversation has been instructive for people who are paying attention.
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@Legis said
"It will always boil down to the difference between your preference to accept an explanation that relies on astronomical improbabilities versus my preference to accept an explanation that relies on a materially undetectable causal factor."
There's no preference about it: if object X is utterly and completely undetectable, one cannot validly conclude it is the cause of anything.
That's objectively the case, regardless of what any single person thinks about it or whatever the X is under discussion.
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@Los said
"What about when your doctor tells you that you have a disease and that you need X treatment? Do you say, "Bah! How dare you apply your personal standards to me! Every person is an unique individual, and I will not be subjected to your subjective standards of 'health!' Begone, slaver! Let fire from heaven cleanse this space, for it is only for the free!! Huzzah!!!""
Imagine this Legis guy talking to his mechanic, if he really and truly wanted to consistently apply his ideas. The mechanic would look under the hood and say, "Whoa, you need a new engine," and Legis would respond, "How dare you apply your 'personal standards' to my unique car! Begone, slaver! My mind refuses to wear your shackles. I am a free man. Come, fire from heaven!!"