How to respond to Crowley-bashers?
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That's half of what I love about you, Jim.
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Crowley has the desired effect, they're just not paying attention to themselves
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Bite them in the neck!
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I don't think Crowley would have really cared at all so if they're trying to attack his character it doesn't really matter. If they're attacking the practices that you want to talk about then you can talk about the practices and Crowley doesn't have to come into it.
I found this really cool essay on him by Phil Hine in Prime Chaos:
"Madness and suicide trailed in his wake. Scandal dogged his footsteps, yet he was not dragged down by the failures of his fellows. His modern-day admirers seek to explain his contradictions and justify his acts of moral outrage. Yet Crowley was interested in neither explanations or justifications. The fact of his existence was enough. With the absorption of a child playing his own game, the rules known only to himself, he wandered the world, immune to disaster and oblivious to the possibility of failure."
The rest of the essay starts on p. 28 (zalbarath666.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/phil-hine-prime-chaos.pdf), I found it really well-written and just fucking cool.
"At no point does he seem to be saying "this isn't the real me." He does not argue his position or distance himself from his life, he presents himself with a matter-of-factness which both attracts and repels."
I think Regardie said he considered Crowley an avatar of Pan. You can't argue with Pan, he is what he is.
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On this general note, a few days ago I got into a conversation with a kindly old gentleman while perusing this forum in a cafe I frequent in godforsaken Agoura Hills. We were chatting about this and that and he asked what I was doing on the computer. At a loss for words, I made a mistake I usually don't make and I told him the truth, phrasing it thus: I am conversing on an internet forum that has to do with the Occult, or more specifically "Scientific Illuminism." I talked about how this included yoga, meditation, personal development, and so forth, and how the word "Occult," merely meant "hidden." At this point his soft, rheumy blue eyes started a bit, and he went back to his own table. Returning with a look of concern, he asked if I had ever read the Bible. I laughed heartily (turning a few heads) and proceeded to explain that my mother had made me write out the Book of Proverbs a number of times in my youth. I proceeded to let off a few bits of Bible History that would have rattled a seminary student. I explained further that I thought all religions and systems of thought had something to teach us, from Hinduism to Rastafarianism to whatever. He didn't quite agree with this, but we proceeded to have a genial conversation anyways, turning to other things.
I have had hour-long conversations with Irish priests in convertibles about the merits of comparative religion, and I've been denounced in public as a Heathen for reading "The Book of Thoth." I react always with candor, bemusement, and on rare occasion, pure, undiluted wrath.
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@kasper81 said
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@AliceKnewI said
"I've been running into pagans/magicians/wiccans who hate Crowley and dismiss all of his work because of some of his personal behavior.How do you respond to this?
"Maybe you should keep it all to yourself"
"and to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds." - AL III:39
"He shall everywhere proclaim openly his connection with the
A.'. A.'. and speak of It and Its principles (even so little as he
understandeth) for that mystery is the enemy of Truth."- The Task of the Probationer of the A.'.A.'.
Shall we hear further from the uninitiated non-lineage proclaimers about what is true and correct? Or shall they stand aside, listen and learn for once?
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@kasper81 said
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yeah but she obviously isn't ready to "give the Law" if it's stressing her out? Once again I own thine as.s"Nope. Alice is giving the Law, she's asking how to deal with people who judge an artist's work based on the personality of the artist. I'd own your arse, but you're all arse and I am not that into slaves of because.
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Right now I'd say something like this: according to the conventional world view where you need to be a conformist person with no soul, but have a house and bank account instead, do what you're told and play nice, chase what the tv tells you to chase and all that crap, Crowley was indeed a bad, bad man.
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I only respond to the one thing that surrounds the reason for his alleged drug addiction to heroin, I decided to do some research on it only to have it stated that as a child it was prescribed to him medically for asthma during a time that the addictive qualities of it may not have been completely understood.
To those who completely and with an all bias opinion of him being Satanic and will press for something in reference to that from me... I usually will reply that we don't nessessarily even believe in the existence of such a being and if he does why would anyone follow a deity whose only purpose is the total destruction of humanity if they maybe referring to the Christian anti archetype.
Most of the time I just let it roll off my shoulders but almost all the time I always qualify that Crowley was a genius. -
And a question about the o.p. I have never met anyone in those circles that have ever bashed Crowley or any spiritual teacher. I believe it is one of the thirteen principles of Wiccan belief written by a Wiccan counsel of some sort sometime back in the seventies..
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I sort of see him as the Freud of Western esotericism. Correct, but politically incorrect. You'll run into plenty shallow flakey feminist 'pagans' and whatnot who don't like him. That's just how it is. I was just arguing with a Christian on youtube (fuck me) about Crowley. He started by saying Crowley wrote the Satanic Bible. Proved that one wrong. Then moved onto allegations of Crowley performing ritual animal and human sacrifice. Also said the Abramelin ritual is 'Satanic' because it's meant to "open the gates of Hell". Oh and his parting argument was that Crowley had a pet dog named "Satan". Haha. It's just funny when if your theology doesn't account for or acknlowedge the existence of Satan, a Christian can and will at times use that in itself to call you or your views Satanic. So, not believing in the devil is devilish. I think we've all heard that "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't exist." Or something like that.
It is pretty well-established that Crowley advocated, at least at one point in his writings, that children be exposed to every sexual act under the Sun, basically. Not having it done to them, but witnessing it. I suspect this was Crowley's idea in order to make sex less taboo and possibly lessen repression in adulthood. Not sure, though. But, people I end up debating, or rather arguing with never cease to use wingnut sources for their information on Crowley. I suggest reading his own works for themselves, and give them a link to Liber Al with the commentaries on Hermetic.com . But, no, that would be too close to the person whose character they're trying to kill. Makes no sense and at best I think engaging with bigoted Christians is only good for entertainment anymore.
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Being new to Thelema this is a subject quite close to my heart, and I deal with it in exactly the same way I deal with most conflict - smile and nod.
In my younger days (I'm only in my 30s but hey, work with me here) I used to get angry when someone said something I considered to be uninformed or daft, I'd confront them and try to convince them of the error of their ways. I bet you can guess how many times this worked? Conflict leads to more conflict in my experience, never mind the fact we should all be tolerant of everyone's worldview so long as it isn't causing harm.
These days if someone says something like 'Crowley sacrificed children!' I smile, say 'ok' and don't react. This generally leads to questions being asked and gives the opportunity to point them gently in the direction of finding answers for themselves or better yet examining the realities of their own belief systems. Catholic Mass being a good example of an Occult Ceremony...
There are also ways of framing Thelema without using words like 'Occult', we can all think of examples where our practices are almost identical to Yoga / Meditaiton / Buddhism / Christianity etc, I tend to talk to people about those things first before mentioning Thelema. Sadly the press has had a field day with the OTO and the whole 'sex cult' thing seems to have stuck.
Generally though I think actions speak louder than words and leading by example will convince more people of the right in your beliefs than any argument ever will.
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One good answer might be to simply state the obvious, "Crowley was/is a misunderstood genius" and then ask them if they have ever actually read anything Crowley wrote and tried to understand it? Usually they won't be able to answer in the affirmative.
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Ask them what is so wrong about Crowley?