Thelema vs. Crowleyism
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I constantly find myself intrigued by Aleister Crowley and a lot of what he had to say and what he tried to create through the system of Thelema but I simultaneously disagree with him on so many points (ex. social darwinism). I mean, I think he was a very misunderstood genius in a lot of ways but I've never quite understood how people could practically worship him? Even calling him a "prophet" makes me a bit squeamish (not necessarily saying he wasn't, it's more just the word). I see him as a very important instigator who synthesized a great many concepts but beyond that I don't know what I think about him.
Someone once told me though that there is a big difference between "Thelema" and "Crowleyism" -- what do you think about that?
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I've never heard of Crowleyism. Crowlianity, on the other hand, I have heard of. Stay away from it. It's filled with demons!
No, seriously, yeah. I feel ya. I think the real question boils down to when you have Thelema in your heart and not just a bunch of ideas you read somewhere. I like Crowley. I'd party with him if he where here now. I wouldn't always agree with him, nor would I always agree with you, but on some points (even those that people accuse him of being a victim of his times) he was absolutely correct and the politically correct liberal mambies will hopefully be shown how it is correct. (I'll let you guess which very controversial points I'm on about and which I might not be on about.)
The main thing I'm trying to say is think for yourself. Fuck Crowley (I would if he was here). Thelema is about you. It's about the people you choose to associate with. Crowley is the prophet (the word means what it means and that's that). I live in the Bible belt (prairieville Nebraska) and have no problem wearing my talismans and calling myself a Thelemite so I don't buy that excuse when I hear it. I love discussing Thelema with others who are or are not Christians in truth. I have coffee with priests of various denominations with no arguments. So I give no truck to any belief that something is impossible or biased on this earth against Thelemites, pagans, or weird people (trust me, I'm weird people).
What you're experiencing is your own bias coming to light. I'd work on that.
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@AllMyWill said
"I've never quite understood how people could practically worship him?"
Who does that? Though, the word "practically" allows for a range of meanings.
"Someone once told me though that there is a big difference between "Thelema" and "Crowleyism" -- what do you think about that?"
It can be difficult to disentangle the two for several reasons. Mostly, it's something one has to work out for oneself.
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"The publications of the A∴A∴ divide themselves into five classes (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libri_of_Aleister_Crowley
Class A consists of books of which may be changed not so much as the style of a letter; that is, they represent the utterance of an Adept entirely beyond the criticism of even the Visible Head of the Organization;
Class B consists of books or essays which are the result of ordinary scholarship, enlightened and earnest;
Class C consists of matter which is to be regarded rather as suggestive than anything else;
Class D consists of the Official Rituals and Instructions;
Class E consists of public announcements and broadsheets.Some publications are composite, and pertain to more than one class. O.T.O. documents are not assigned to any A∴A∴ class.[1]"
AllMyWill,
To be sure, there is a difference between Thelema itself and the A.'.A.'.. One is a Religion proper. The other is a fraternity for exploring mysticism through personal participation and scientific investigation.
Personally, though, I find it helpful to see the different writings of Crowley through his own ranking system. Some things, not all, are given "prophetic utterance" style status. Most, not all, is considered merely personal opinion.
Ultimately, your journey with Thelema is far more about your personal journey toward knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel and has little or nothing at all to do with following the man Crowley in terms of making all his opinions your own.
In my opinion, much that he wrote was an initial attempt at modelling a new and different worldview that contrasts with the popular "peace and equality at all costs" mentality typically used to sedate humanity. You're a soldier. You've probably experienced the stark contrast between the teachings of the main religions that keep society stable and the harsh, practical (and condradicting) reality that peace is kept only through the power of military force where peace fails to motivate an aggressor. Where that reality usually sits as a dark secret in the closet of humanity's mind, Crowley attempted to write about and model the opposite ideal. He spoke from personal opinion, and with about a hundred years to reflect on what he wrote..... well, you can choose to go either way with it on your own. You are free to consider it some kind of ultimate ideal, and you are also free to consider it a dated opinion from an aristocrat who lived during the "Downton Abbey period" of the dying English aristocracy.
I do think we need to allow ourselves to be challenged by it, certainly. I don't think anyone ought to feel constrained to imitate it perfectly - well, unless that's your thing, I guess, but that's up to you.
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Yeah, fellow Bible-Belter, I'm still trying to figure all that out.
Some of it has to do with what I want to be when I grow up. There needs to be a certain safe and dogma-neutral face to the world. But there's also a stagnancy in my life with which I'm growing dissatisfied.
Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet kind of place..
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AllMyWill,
Most of the people on this website do believe that Crowley is a prophet from what I can tell, so you might be in the wrong place. I believe the guy was a drug addict, and a con artist.
It all comes down to what you believe. Do you believe that angels interfere in the lives of men, and dictate magic books? That spirits float around in some etheric dimension talking to chubby wizards high on mescaline, and coke, and heroin (and eventually ether later on)? Do you think that Aleister Crowley really received some magical all important message from an angel, while he was high on drugs in the desert of egypt or not?
You have to ask yourself if you really believe it's possible. But you also have to be willing to look at the evidence that Crowley was not a prophet (and there is lots of it). You must decide whether it matters to you or not. If you want to believe he was a prophet, then you will. Do you need it to be true bad enough that you are willing to believe it?
Do spirits and magic spells exist, or are these all just delusions in the mind of a drug addict, and abused child?
Did he say, and write some cool stuff? Yes. But since Crowley died we have learned a lot, and even greater thinkers have come along. Was he a good writer? Meh, he was an "ok" writer. A lot of what he said is pure garbage.
He was just "ok" at painting, and writing. I don't think he played any musical instruments. He never started a successful enterprise, or made millions in the stock market. He could have. He squandered all. He could have been anything he wanted. But he was too high to focus on any one of those things, and so he was only just "ok" at writing, and painting, and poetry, and mountain climbing.
He had a lot of bad ideas. He spent more time in a drunken haze, and on drugs than anything else. He was physically and emotionally abusive to his lovers. He was an absolutely horrid father to his children. He was a swindler, a cheat who could not pay creditors.
Love him, hate him, take him or leave him.
Do I think he was a prophet? No. He is an interesting historical figure, that's about it. He represents why religious indoctrination is terrible for a child. His father forced religion on him. He was the byproduct of absentee parenting in the victorian era.
An enigmatic man child. A tortured soul, but no prophet. Just what is a prophet anyways? That supposes all sorts of questions which you will not find answered here. You will be discouraged from having that conversation. You might find this post is edited or censored so I hope you read it quickly. Either some pimply basement dwelling troll is about to start a flame war for declaring that Crowley is less than divine, or Jim is going to delete the comment entirely (he has before).
If you want to discuss the question of whether Crowley was a prophet or not, you are in the wrong place. These guys all believe he was. In fact, they think they are talking to the same invisible friends that Crowley was, and that he's hanging out in the afterlife giving everyone permission to use his writings and legacy however they please.
I think it's a joke. I often come and read here for my own bemusement. It gives me perspective to know I'm not as crazy as others, but I am also profoundly sad to read comments of people who genuinely believe they have powers, or a Casper the friendly ghost living with them.
AllMyWill, in case you didn't notice this is a forum exclusively for people who think that Crowley was a prophet…. of AIWASS, whatever the hell that means.
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You have no interest in a view point which does not somehow prop up your own. You are a hypocrite. For someone who says he that he disapproves of limiting another ones scope, or point of view, I do say we have found one point of view which you think should be silenced, and censored. A point of view for which you have no tolerance. Good thing you are not in charge of moderating the real world, because we all know what a fascist does when they are in charge of more than a tiny group of people. Lucky for us you are not but the king of a tiny hill of ants.
Well you can ban us, censor us, etc. but until this ceases to be a public forum with open registration more will come. Eventually some other atheist will see the golden trolling opportunity. It's too easy with you people. Why don't you cast a spell of protection to keep us out, if you are so confident in your magical abilities? Yu would never have to ban anyone. But I think you know it's bullshit so you use your mouse and keyboard for this task. That's not very metaphysical or magical if you ask me.
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@dr. ski wampas said
"AllMyWill,
Most of the people on this website do believe that Crowley is a prophet from what I can tell, so you might be in the wrong place."
That's quite a broad generalization you're throwing out there. Care to provide any evidence?
"I believe the guy was a drug addict, and a con artist."
Drug addict, certainly. Con artist? I'd like to see some evidence. Certainly a scientifically-minded individual such as yourself has evidence to support these "beliefs" that you hold, no?
"It all comes down to what you believe."
Actually this is specifically what it doesn't come down to. Is this really how you run your life? Based on what you believe? No wonder you seem so out of sorts. "Belief" is precisely what Scientific Illuminism intends to combat. Nuit promises "certainty", not belief. You poor dear. You're wandering in a dark cloud of mistaken belief. Seek the Dawn. Let go of these "beliefs" that are restricting your Understanding. The certainty of Experience awaits.
"Do you believe that angels interfere in the lives of men, and dictate magic books? That spirits float around in some etheric dimension talking to chubby wizards high on mescaline, and coke, and heroin (and eventually ether later on)? Do you think that Aleister Crowley really received some magical all important message from an angel, while he was high on drugs in the desert of egypt or not?"
None of this matters. Stop relying on "belief". Trust in experience.
"You have to ask yourself if you really believe it's possible."
This is really bad advice. All revolutionary change occurs when one tries something that he previously "believed" to be impossible. Don't allow current conditions to dictate the future of your story. Write the story you want to live, live it, and then analyze it after the fact to determine what was running it from behind the scenes.
"But you also have to be willing to look at the evidence that Crowley was not a prophet (and there is lots of it)."
Citation, please?
"You must decide whether it matters to you or not. If you want to believe he was a prophet, then you will. Do you need it to be true bad enough that you are willing to believe it?"
The word "prophet" comes from the Greek prophētēs ‘spokesman,’ from pro ‘before’ + phētēs ‘speaker’ (from phēnai ‘speak’). Was Crowley a spokesman? Yes. That requires no belief whatsoever. Why are you so hung up on it? What's going on in your life, Ski, that makes you so afraid of (and thereby ruled by) belief?
"Do spirits and magic spells exist, or are these all just delusions in the mind of a drug addict, and abused child?"
Only one way to find out.
"Did he say, and write some cool stuff? Yes. But since Crowley died we have learned a lot, and even greater thinkers have come along. Was he a good writer? Meh, he was an "ok" writer. A lot of what he said is pure garbage."
This tells me quite a bit about you, Ski, not so much about the topic at hand so we'll just let it pass without further comment.
"He was just "ok" at painting, and writing. I don't think he played any musical instruments. He never started a successful enterprise, or made millions in the stock market. He could have. He squandered all. He could have been anything he wanted. But he was too high to focus on any one of those things, and so he was only just "ok" at writing, and painting, and poetry, and mountain climbing."
He became exactly what he wanted. How many stock brokers, real estate agents, mountain climbers, writers, painters, or poets can actually say that at the end of their life?
"He had a lot of bad ideas. He spent more time in a drunken haze, and on drugs than anything else. He was physically and emotionally abusive to his lovers. He was an absolutely horrid father to his children. He was a swindler, a cheat who could not pay creditors."
Again, lots of judgement, very little evidence. As someone who has rifled through quite a bit of the evidence, this tells me a lot about the way you, Ski, judge other people and very little about the topic at hand. I'm glad it's very unlikely we'll never meet because you're outlook on the way others *should *run their lives seems downright "horrid", as it were.
"Love him, hate him, take him or leave him."
We're trying to. Why do you keep jumping on here to instruct us in how we're doing it wrong because we don't match you in all points? You've shown pretty bluntly that you hold this site in absolute contempt. What keeps bringing you back? What's that hole in your life that you keep desperately trying to fill here at good ol' HeruRaHa.net?
"Do I think he was a prophet? No. He is an interesting historical figure, that's about it. He represents why religious indoctrination is terrible for a child. His father forced religion on him. He was the byproduct of absentee parenting in the victorian era.
An enigmatic man child. A tortured soul, but no prophet. Just what is a prophet anyways? That supposes all sorts of questions which you will not find answered here. You will be discouraged from having that conversation. You might find this post is edited or censored so I hope you read it quickly. Either some pimply basement dwelling troll is about to start a flame war for declaring that Crowley is less than divine, or Jim is going to delete the comment entirely (he has before).
If you want to discuss the question of whether Crowley was a prophet or not, you are in the wrong place. These guys all believe he was. In fact, they think they are talking to the same invisible friends that Crowley was, and that he's hanging out in the afterlife giving everyone permission to use his writings and legacy however they please."
See above.
"I think it's a joke."
Neat.
"I often come and read here for my own bemusement. It gives me perspective to know I'm not as crazy as others, but I am also profoundly sad to read comments of people who genuinely believe they have powers, or a Casper the friendly ghost living with them."
Well now this is just sad. You come to an internet board of people whose opinions and life experience you don't share for the sole purpose of looking down on them to make you feel better about yourself. That's either downright sociopathic or deeply deeply sad.
(ps. kasper was another dull-minded petulant mind who left these boards several months ago spewing the same self-important experience-less judgement as you, often in precisely the same phrasing. Your writing style is so similar that, when you began writing it was hard not to assume that you were simply another avatar of the same regurgitated thought. Turns out that you are actually a different person who has so little originality of thought that you write in an almost identical voice as someone who lives half-way around the globe. You should look him up sometime. He lives in the north of England and posts as david over on LAShTAL. The two of you might be doppelgangers. What would that do to your supernatural theories?
)"AllMyWill, in case you didn't notice this is a forum exclusively for people who think that Crowley was a prophet…. of AIWASS, whatever the hell that means."
Your lack of comprehension speaks volumes.
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@dr. ski wampas said
"You have no interest in a view point which does not somehow prop up your own. You are a hypocrite."
You do realize that this applies equally well to you, right? With the emendation that you have put exactly zero effort into creating an internet forum at which to specifically discuss the topics of reality that interest you, whereas Temple of Thelema has.
What you seem so hellbent on not understanding (self-delusion in full force) is that this website, heruraha.net, is the foyer of Temple of Thelema, open to all but still owned and operated by Temple of Thelema. What you are currently doing is akin to walking into the front lobby of Google and berating every other guest, receptionist, security guard, and gift-shop attendant because they won't immediately switch to Bing. Regardless of the merits of your position, you are in the lobby of Google disrupting the peace in a way specifically antagonistic to your host and the rules of conduct posted at the front door. If you are unwilling to take the warning, there is absolutely no reason I can think of why security shouldn't remove you from the premises. Can you? If you want to continue on you Bing-crusade, you have an entire free internet on which to do it. Continuing to attempt it on the Google campus to Google employees in hopes of, I don't know... converting them to your unsupported position? That pretty much fits the definition of insanity to a T.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@dr. ski wampas said
"You have no interest in a view point which does not somehow prop up your own. You are a hypocrite."You do realize that this applies equally well to you, right? With the emendation that you have put exactly zero effort into creating an internet forum at which to specifically discuss the topics of reality that interest you, whereas Temple of Thelema has."
Well if that we're true I wouldn't be here. When was the last time you actively sought out and engaged with a point of view contrary to your own?tyou seem like the type who is resentful of someone who disagrees with you fundamentally, and I can guess you are here because people here prop up and echo your own views.
This place was not created for open discussion, any such open discussion is discouraged and censored. This place is a recruitment tool for a... Well you know, that word that people usually use to describe Mormonism and Scientology, and heaven's gate?
"What you seem so hellbent on not understanding (self-delusion in full force) is that this website, heruraha.net, is the foyer of Temple of Thelema, open to all but still owned and operated by Temple of Thelema. What you are currently doing is akin to walking into the front lobby of Google and berating every other guest, receptionist, security guard, and gift-shop attendant because they won't immediately switch to Bing. Regardless of the merits of your position, you are in the lobby of Google disrupting the peace in a way specifically antagonistic to your host and the rules of conduct posted at the front door. If you are unwilling to take the warning, there is absolutely no reason I can think of why security shouldn't remove you from the premises. Can you? If you want to continue on you Bing-crusade, you have an entire free internet on which to do it. Continuing to attempt it on the Google campus to Google employees in hopes of, I don't know... converting them to your unsupported position? That pretty much fits the definition of insanity to a T."
This is a forum, not a lobby or a foyer, but an Internet forum, with open registration. (Are you sure you are not the delusional one? You seem to not be able to tell the difference between those words you used to describe this place.) Google hosts forums too and trust me, people do tell them how they feel about them. I the they are open to that because they want to make their product better.
You are casting stones from a glass house. Get back to me about sanity when you understand reality. I don't believe in ghosts I will tell you that. Perhaps I'm not so much insane as I am bored. But I can see it is insane to think discussion is possible with you people.
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@dr. ski wampas said
"When was the last time you actively sought out and engaged with a point of view contrary to your own?"
Every day of my life, both as a personal drive and as a professional requirement.
"tyou seem like the type who is resentful of someone who disagrees with you fundamentally, and I can guess you are here because people here prop up and echo your own views."
You've "typed" me based on internet posts and are now allowing that assumption to cloud your vision. You have no idea who I am and making assumptions about it does you no favors. Interact with my words on the page rather than this goblin you manifested in your mind and you'll have much better luck at understanding what I write.
"This place was not created for open discussion, any such open discussion is discouraged and censored. This place is a recruitment tool for a... Well you know, that word that people usually use to describe Mormonism and Scientology, and heaven's gate?"
This place was created as "an open classroom of College of Thelema. Primarily, it exists for asking and answering informational questions, for general discussion by people with an interest in the subjects of magick, mysticism, initiation, Qabbalah, and Thelemic philosophy, and for building and expanding a community of colleagues. Though the forum is moderated, wide latitude is given for discussion. The key boundary to this wide latitude is that we expect a respectful level of communication that makes this forum welcoming to new participants. As a participant, you should expect to be treated respectfully and hospitably by the forum as a whole."
The parameters of discussion for this particular forum are pretty clearly laid out there. Do you have problems with reading comprehension?
"Google hosts forums too and trust me, people do tell them how they feel about them. I the they are open to that because they want to make their product better."
That's their choice. I can guarantee you that if you started posting redirect links to Bing or advertisements for Microsoft or attacking other users on those forums for their idiocy in continuing to use Google products when Microsoft is "obviously" superior, you would not last long without similar administrative warnings.
"I don't believe in ghosts I will tell you that."
What the hell does this have to do with ANYTHING related to this thread?
"Wraps I'm not so much insane as I am bored. But I can see it is insane to think discussion is possible with you people."
And then, of course, we end with the "you people" epithet. Pathetic.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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You've "typed" me based on internet posts and are now allowing that assumption to cloud your vision. You have no idea who I am and making assumptions about it does you no favors. Interact with my words on the page rather than this goblin you manifested in your mind and you'll have much better luck at understanding what I write."Pot calling the kettle black, eh? I recall our last encounter, Yu thought you had me pegged pretty good. I still see that you think you do.
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What the hell does this have to do with ANYTHING related to this "Let that knowledge assist you in judging my sanity. Although of you do believe in ghosts perhaps you are not the best to judge who is or isn't crazy.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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Drug addict, certainly. Con artist? I'd like to see some evidence. Certainly a scientifically-minded individual such as yourself has evidence to support these "beliefs" that you hold, no?"Did he or did he not solicit money from people who were convinced he was a prophet of some sort? I am quite sure he did. Since no evidence exists that he was a prophet and since his writings fail to conclusively prove once and for all that consciousness exists without a body ( as he claimed they do) I think most people can probably be their own judge.
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None of this matters. Stop relying on "belief". Trust in experience."You operate based on belief too. Specifically you believe your experiences can prove to you things which most sane people would reject.
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Citation, please?"Actually the burden of proof falls generally on the e making a claim. Cite me whatever scientific study you can to corroborate Crowley.
" Why are you so hung up on it? What's going on in your life, Ski, that makes you so afraid of (and thereby ruled by) belief?"
Actually I am doing quite nicely. I can't imagine what you think I am hung up on. How can one be afraid of belief? My life operates on the basis of many beliefs. What is different between us is what informs our beliefs.
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Only one way to find out."Yes, by educating yourself and asking what good evidence there is that spirits exist in the first place.
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This tells me quite a bit about you, Ski, not so much about the topic at hand so we'll just let it pass without further comment."All it should tell you about me is that I don't believe crowley's claim to be a prophet.
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He became exactly what he wanted. How many stock brokers, real estate agents, mountain climbers, writers, painters, or poets can actually say that at the end of their life?"I don't know, how many have you talked with? Are you saying there is shame in making an honest living?
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Again, lots of judgement, very little evidence. As someone who has rifled through quite a bit of the evidence, this tells me a lot about the way you, Ski, judge other people and very little about the topic at hand. I'm glad it's very unlikely we'll never meet because you're outlook on the way others *should *run their lives seems downright "horrid", as it were."Yes I am judging his bad ideas t be garbage.whether it was racist and sexist swill, or he was making the claim that sperm has magical properties and can grant healing powers to those who eat it. That was one of his notoriously silly ideas.
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@dr. ski wampas said
"Did he or did he not solicit money from people who were convinced he was a prophet of some sort?"
Yes, he did. The question, though, is what sort of prophet were they convinced he was and what was it that convinced them? In order for it to have been a con, he would have had to do the persuading. Do you have evidence of this? Or is it possible that these people from whom he requested money were actually self-sufficient individuals who came to a conclusion based on the evidence in front of them? Also, a con is usually completed by the perpetrator absconding with large sums, never to be heard from again. Can you name one individual in Crowley's life who did not know exactly what happened with the small amounts they were able to provide?
"Since no evidence exists that he was a prophet and since his writings fail to conclusively prove once and for all that consciousness exists without a body ( as he claimed they do) I think most people can probably be their own judge."
Of your lack of rigorous analysis? Certainly. Crowley, while alive, was the spokesman of Thelema. This is the etymological definition of the word Prophet. That is evidence that contradicts your claim. The rest of your sentence seem to be pulled from some other line of thought so I'll let it slide.
"You operate based on belief too. Specifically you believe your experiences can prove to you things which most sane people would reject."
I'd be most interested in hearing what it is that you think I believe. I'd also love to know why the opinions of "most sane people" should trump experience. If what you say is true, then there are a few sane people (and any number of those judged insane by a highly qualified clinical psychologist such as yourself) who would not reject the experience of reality. These sound like the only sensible people you've mentioned so far.
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Citation, please?"Actually the burden of proof falls generally on the e making a claim. Cite me whatever scientific study you can to corroborate Crowley."
I was asking for a citation of "the evidence that Crowley was not a prophet." You made the claim that "there is lots of it". Burden is on you.
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Only one way to find out."Yes, by educating yourself and asking what good evidence there is that spirits exist in the first place."
Uh... no. It's by getting out there and doing the work yourself instead of sitting on your ass and waiting for somebody else to hand it to you on a platter. You are a lazy one. Another trait you share with kasper. You two really are peas in a pod.
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This tells me quite a bit about you, Ski, not so much about the topic at hand so we'll just let it pass without further comment."All it should tell you about me is that I don't believe crowley's claim to be a prophet."
Of all the things it tells me about you, that is only the most obvious and least important. You don't play chess, do you? Or poker, for that matter.
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He became exactly what he wanted. How many stock brokers, real estate agents, mountain climbers, writers, painters, or poets can actually say that at the end of their life?"I don't know, how many have you talked with? Are you saying there is shame in making an honest living?"
Not at all. I'm saying there's shame in not living the life You will to live. And there's even greater shame in judging others' lives based on your individual standards rather than their own.
"Yes I am judging his bad ideas t be garbage.whether it was racist and sexist swill, or he was making the claim that sperm has magical properties and can grant healing powers to those who eat it. That was one of his notoriously silly ideas."
Might be time to lay off the sauce while internet posting. Your writing is growing even more muddled than usual.
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Yeah, man. The title is Prophet of the New Aeon. If you buy into the New Aeon, you've probably read this guy... Did he speak "prophetically" for the emerging transformation of humanity to you or not?
If so, then "Prophet of the New Aeon" he is.
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@dr. ski wampas said
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Did he or did he not solicit money from people who were convinced he was a prophet of some sort? I am quite sure he did. Since no evidence exists that he was a prophet and since his writings fail to conclusively prove once and for all that consciousness exists without a body ( as he claimed they do) I think most people can probably be their own judge.
"I'm suspecting you are operating on the misconception that "prophet" means "future teller."
proph·et
ˈpräfət/
noun
1.
a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.*emphasis added.
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@dr. ski wampas said
"Most of the people on this website do believe that Crowley is a prophet from what I can tell, so you might be in the wrong place. I believe the guy was a drug addict, and a con artist."
All Gods are Truth
All Men are Prophets
All Woman the Goddess