Allan Bennett regarded Mysticism as higher than magick?
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Allan Bennett I seem to remember told Crowley that Thelema wouldn't get anywhere because of it's complexity and recommended the purer form of Buddhism.
If it takes lifetimes for someone to reach 9=2 and they are still subject to reincarnation, that magick is a very slow system then why not simply use 'are there any limits to my awareness?' or 'who is watching the breath?' and stay there - just get off this wheel and go into non duality quickly - the rest follows. The magickal system seems to be ' Yes it's hell but after enough training you're going to love this wheel'
Was this Bennett's point? And was he wrong?
I'm obviously going through a crisis of faith - but when you don't feel the world and you have anything to offer each other one does start to get the Bodhidarma 'stare at a wall for 20 years feeling' as being LESS painful than 40 more confusing incarnations where simply more karma gets added up. Not to mention it is a lot more Taoist and natural to realise one is the gates of heaven than storming the gates of heaven by straining every faculty to its utmost for decades.
It just seems simple to me why Bennett said this.
What are the disadvantages of going directly into non-duality? What are the true advantages of the Thelemic system over the non dual system? -
I think I'm detecting a bit of confusion of terms here in that Thelema, as such, isn't a magical system so much as a philosophy of life or, to some, a religion based on that philosophy. It is possible to practice magick (of a conscious, soul-evolving nature) within that particular framework, but it isn't required. It is equally possible for one to practice mysticism (of a conscious, soul-evolving nature).
My dates could be a bit fuzzy, but I believe Bennett was critiquing Crowley's attachment to the magical system both had learned in the Golden Dawn.
Looked at from that viewpoint (which I believe is the viewpoint that influenced the dual-natured approach of A.'.A.'.) one can approach the gates on the 20-year or 40-incarnation path with equal validity as a Thelemite.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"I think I'm detecting a bit of confusion of terms here in that Thelema, as such, isn't a magical system so much as a philosophy of life or, to some, a religion based on that philosophy. It is possible to practice magick (of a conscious, soul-evolving nature) within that particular framework, but it isn't required. It is equally possible for one to practice mysticism (of a conscious, soul-evolving nature).
My dates could be a bit fuzzy, but I believe Bennett was critiquing Crowley's attachment to the magical system both had learned in the Golden Dawn.
Looked at from that viewpoint (which I believe is the viewpoint that influenced the dual-natured approach of A.'.A.'.) one can approach the gates on the 20-year or 40-incarnation path with equal validity as a Thelemite."
I'm sorry I should really NOT have written Thelema there. I should have said the Great Work or more pointedly the most complete system of the GW- the A A system.
Totally my fault.My issue was simply which was more effective and time consuming and which one would be more suited to me.
I'm guessing the solely mystical path has massive pitfalls / traps, and the A A is geared towards avoiding those very traps.
My confusion is I've often heard the Magician is living very much in the world - but would I be wrong to say that that depends very much on the nature of the will of the magician - not a hard and fast rule? Alan Bennett was a n adept but still was drawn to isolation to a great degree. In my case I'm not particularly attracted to making any mark on malkuth since I have more of a more hermitude nature along the lines of Bennett. But then I guess David Shoemaker for instance is also an introvert by nature. It's stupid but I keep thinking Introverts =mysticism . Probably because of Crowley's and others extroverted characters ! And I keep forgetting that mysticism is the dual path of the AA along with magick.
It's mainly Jim's warning about non-duality being a mistake if dived into too early that has made me a little more confused since I love non duality meditation and was hoping it wouldn't contradict with the AA system - since I'm drawn to it so strongly.
Thanks for replying! -
@Anchorite said
"My confusion is I've often heard the Magician is living very much in the world - but would I be wrong to say that that depends very much on the nature of the will of the magician - not a hard and fast rule?"
I would say that letting go of the notion that anything is a hard and fast rule is generally a good approach. Do what thou wilt.
"It's mainly Jim's warning about non-duality being a mistake if dived into too early that has made me a little more confused since I love non duality meditation and was hoping it wouldn't contradict with the AA system - since I'm drawn to it so strongly.
Thanks for replying!"I don't know whether or not this is Jim's belief but, if so, it would be a place where the two of us disagree. I've always read the A.'.A.'.'s insistence on allowing the Probationer to find his own entry point into the Work to be the most sensible teaching in the canon.
- Find the door that opens most readily to your own current place in space-time.
- Practice there until you begin to see developments.
- Then start branching out with the understanding that you must master the entire Grade in order to be an effective guide for those who come after you on the Path.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Anchorite said
"My confusion is I've often heard the Magician is living very much in the world - but would I be wrong to say that that depends very much on the nature of the will of the magician - not a hard and fast rule?"I would say that letting go of the notion that anything is a hard and fast rule is generally a good approach. Do what thou wilt.
"It's mainly Jim's warning about non-duality being a mistake if dived into too early that has made me a little more confused since I love non duality meditation and was hoping it wouldn't contradict with the AA system - since I'm drawn to it so strongly.
Thanks for replying!"I don't know whether or not this is Jim's belief but, if so, it would be a place where the two of us disagree. I've always read the A.'.A.'.'s insistence on allowing the Probationer to find his own entry point into the Work to be the most sensible teaching in the canon.
- Find the door that opens most readily to your own current place in space-time.
- Practice there until you begin to see developments.
- Then start branching out with the understanding that you must master the entire Grade in order to be an effective guide for those who come after you on the Path."
This was a very useful and helpful post.
Thank you. -
@Anchorite said
"Allan Bennett I seem to remember told Crowley that Thelema wouldn't get anywhere because of it's complexity and recommended the purer form of Buddhism.
If it takes lifetimes for someone to reach 9=2 and they are still subject to reincarnation, that magick is a very slow system then why not simply use 'are there any limits to my awareness?' or 'who is watching the breath?' and stay there - just get off this wheel and go into non duality quickly - the rest follows. The magical system seems to be ' Yes it's hell but after enough training you're going to love this wheel'
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Yes AC was a mystic and wanted to realize the Godhead manifest in matter as the Godhead, but he sdaid he couldn't have done that by mysticism alone, he needed magic to help him. In fact he said that magick and yoga are lovers.
“…*t will now be apparent that there is no distinction between Magick and Meditation except of the most arbitrary and accidental kind. It is the co-operation of lovers; which is here a symbol of the fact (emphasis added)[2].
*…my system can be divided into two parts. Apparently diametrically opposed, but at the end converging, the one helping the other until the final method of progress partakes equally of both elements. For convenience I shall call the first method Magick, and the second method Yoga. The opposition between these is very plain for the direction of Magick is wholly outward, that of Yoga wholly inward.[3]
*Relevant article; www.thelemicunion.com/thelemic-yoga-series-part-2-yoga-magick-cooperation-lover
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@Anchorite said
"Thanks a lot for that Gerry !
"No problem.
We've had discussions here before about how Tibetan Buddhism is basically very similar to Thelema. What is mysticism? Someone wants to realize that they have always been and shall be the eternal unmanifest Godhead. This surely involves an exploration of planes more subtle than the physical, right? However there are higher forms of entities on these planes, right? Dealing with that is where mysticism becomes magic doesn't it? Even Christ and Buddha had to deal with entities evoked didn't they in Satan and Mara?
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I completely agree. It's not that I wasn't aware that Mystics fought the same demons but 'in their minds not in a circle' (Attributed- Crowley?) but it was the path of the Arrow so to me it seemed, quicker and this was important, vitally important because for some reason I've lately been feeling time is of the essense.
Probably some sort of ordeal mistaken for true Will.
*Notes in diary - total earth shaking ideas at the time could just be a cosmic 'burping' of no real relevance at all when integrated a few days/weeks later.