College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

Jim, it appears you have met an obstacle you did not want to.

And no, I don't mean me. LOL.

At all times during this 'discussion' (to which you have avoided at all costs to yourself and beliefs) I have been polite and not used any offensive language. However, I think you may want to reconsider your use of 'crap' etc. in your post.

You are obviously upset as this topic has highlighted uncomfortable issues for you which you are not ready for, or capable of resolving at this time.

However, as you are obviously not ready to deal with those issues, and you are not at the necessary level yet, I will leave you to your 'beliefs'.

@Jim Eshelman said

"Others can will and create obstacles; but you're immune to that unless you're collaborating. It's your universe! - ?"

Are you seriously suggesting that your universe is not shared with others? And that strength of any person(s) will (at any given time) does not vary? And that influence upon will does not exist? That is what your post is saying Jim.

Also, if it's 'your universe' where does everyone else fit in? Are they figments of 'your' imagination and if not how do they lose control over their will while in 'your' universe? Just becoming what you want them to be/do? Your argument suggests that to be true.

"It's the formula of Harpocrates: In your innocent, unpurturbed going in your own way, you are invulnerable to all real harm, and the way opens before you."

That is somewhat naive. A shared consensus of reality requires that opposing wills exist within the same experience, and influence occurs all the time and affects all those in that reality.

You're saying 'you own way' like a newborn babe, or the Fool? So how do babies (and Fools!) get harmed?

How are the two people in the second and third examples (copied below from my post above) 'collaborating' with rape and sexual, mental and physical abuse on them since they were a baby?

"A man is severely sexually, emotionally and physically abused as a child by his father and other family members. He leaves home at 18 and lives on the streets due to poverty. He has a physical disability caused by the abuse as well as being virtually completely lacking in any ability of social interaction or healthy friendship with others, he hardly speaks to anyone and is often taken advantage of due to his mental instability.

A young girl of fourteen is raped and due to religious beliefs of her family and the law in the country where she lives, she has to give birth to child and is forced to bring it up. Three years later she finds out her and her child are both HIV positive. "

"Yes, often we are. But, again, that's because we permit it, as part of our collaborating with it."

Again, what you are saying is a Buddhist idea and is basically Karma.

You can't use a theory that only applies to some contrived or convenient instances of the beliefs you are trying to argue for. In way it's ironic isn't it? You mentioned the 'coincidence' of this subject being posted here at the forum while you are writing your article. And if you believe your theory is correct you must also believe that you have brought this discussion to you at this time as there is something you need to learn from it.

You can't just apply your beliefs to the bits you find easy to explain. Or only to your life experience or a limited range of life experience of others. Otherwise your theory is the belief equivalent of claiming to have a really good relationship - but only with an imaginary friend - which obviously will always conclude with your ideal as it's not a friendship with a real person!

But here is an actual example from a real person - Baby P, with your principles and beliefs you are stating that Baby P collaborated and permitted what happened to him. How did he do that? Why did he do that? It can't be that Baby P feared success and happiness so collaborated in his terrible abuse and death!

"Roll it back... Why did that individual incarnate as a black man in a time and place where this is the case? Until that questioln is answsered, we can't really know what his True Will is. Under the conditions you mentioned, his True Will must include the component of the struggles that he dropped himself right into the middle of."

So, you're saying any problems people have, no matter how horrendous, they 'dropped themselves into'?

You're saying that racism is a collaboration between the black person (or other race) and that the black person (or other race) is actually permitting the racism. That idea would also suggest that people wanted to go into concentration camps - that they collaborated with the Nazis. And that paedophiles victims are collaborating with their abusers - how do you suggest a child 'permits' or 'collaborates' with that?

Another question I have you might be able to help with - if people collaborate and permit crimes against them (as your theory suggests) then why punish people who commit crime? Also, is committing that crime their True Will? Is being a paedophile someone's True Will? If you can't explain that in the context of your theory , how do you explain the harmful, violent and unacceptable things that some people do to others?

I did notice Jim that you avoided the second two examples. But if your argument is solid and you are sure of what you believe you don't have to avoid anything. Indeed, why would you want to?

@Jim Eshelman said

"There is always a shadow aspect to a passionately sought goal. (Always!) Were there not, then one would already have the result: One’s will to its manifestation, in the absence of internal resistance, would already have prevailed.

... Find these; know these; and conquer these as a final act of purification of oneself in preparation for the sacred operation you plan to undertake."

Are you suggesting that there NO obstacles that can be due to the will or intentions of others? If not, could you suggest examples of obstacles that could be due to others? And how using thelemic principles they should be overcome?

Are you suggesting we are not affected in a negative way by the intentions of others?

All of this sounds a bit Buddhist.

I hope you don't take offensive as this is a genuine discussion.

I understand how we personally influence ourselves, and much of what you have written Jim is interesting, relevant and grounded in psychological theory. However, what I hope we can discuss is something of the following examples. For the purposes of the following examples we'll assume the first example is at a level where he is aware of his True Will. The second and third examples are self explanatory.

A man, who is black receives repeated racial discrimination and abuse which affects his life so badly that he feels suicidal. He makes every effort to live his True Will and the path that involves etc. but he finds that the racism means he can't even get through most days with peace in his own home and his ambitions (which because he is a ware of his True Will ARE in accordance with his True Will) are thwarted at every attempt.

A man is severely sexually, emotionally and physically abused as a child by his father and other family members. He leaves home at 18 and lives on the streets due to poverty. He has a physical disability caused by the abuse as well as being virtually completely lacking in any ability of social interaction or healthy friendship with others, he hardly speaks to anyone and is often taken advantage of due to his mental instability.

A young girl of fourteen is raped and due to religious beliefs of her family and the law in the country where she lives, she has to give birth to child and is forced to bring it up. Three years later she finds out her and her child are both HIV positive.

How do you suggest they have caused the obstacles that they would have to overcome, not only to discover their True Will but to also follow that True Will? And how could they have avoided those obstacles?

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Amdis Spica said
"I've been musing much lately on the physical obstacles to True Will. What do those here think of those physical obstacles in their life if they in opposition to your True Will?"

The first question, of course, is: Are they actually in opposition to your True Will? Or do you just think they are?

Variation 1: They are only in opposition to what you want at the moment, and not of your True Will.

Variation 2: You don't understand the available path, and these obstacles are actually "route corrections."

Generally, if there are physical obstructions that persist, this is a clue that something within you isn't fully in accord with True Will. (Nobody is putting those obstructions there but you!)"

I know what you are saying Jim, but surely your reply is saying that it is not possible for an obstacle to exist in opposition to True Will that is NOT part of your True Will? In other words there are no obstacles.

For example, lets just say you KNEW your True Will but there was something in the way, how is that not an obstacle to your True Will?

I've been musing much lately on the physical obstacles to True Will. What do those here think of those physical obstacles in their life if they in opposition to your True Will?

I am not referring to obstacles which are productive, I am referring to those which are fruitless, and yes there are obstacles which are fruitless, whether or not we are the cause of them.

Also, when I say physical obstacles I mean any that relate to physicality however else they exist.