College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

@Veronica said

"Bacon and egg smilies are a great way to get lines of communication going...
In between mouthfuls of course,

I am very interested in sound and music too,
I love singing and drumming!
Welcome."

Well . . . thank you Veronica

Dear Forum,

Greetings . . . Again!

Forgive my absence, I have somehow neglected this forum
I look forward to catching up here and have a new focus on sound/music and alchemy

em hotep
Ankhhape

Isn't this all mainly concerning the view that Thelema is a Theurgic philosophy, the goal being to become at 'One' with the Universe and what Crowley was getting at in reference to the Qliphoth is that through their pathworking hidden knowledge and abilities are attained making it possible to separate from the Universe?

Thanks JWG

What exactly would be your question?

Could somebody explain to me this 'Battle of Evermore' thing? Other than a Led Zep tune what does it refer to?

Thank You,
Ankhhape

@Frater LR said

"
"Why can't you divide the creation from the source? Why can't you become a creator and no longer a creation?"

My initial thoughts:

It depends on what level you want to use the terms. The concept you are questioning, IF it is to be related to Kether and Source, is a very abstract question of ultimate origins. The answer sounds something like...

Because the source of Creative Imagination itself is one and the same as the source and core of every atom of Creation.

You just can't get away from it. If I create The World's Best Comfy Chair, it is only because my genetics and my environment have worked together to spawn the desire, the intelligence, the imagination, the tools, and the will to do so.

That which manifests all things has manifested more manifestation through me, its manifestation.

Now, if you're speaking more commonly of "creator" as a person able to "create," then, yeah, I'd say we are all creators. But if you keep that "I did it/I can do it by myself" mentality as you progress up the Tree in your experience, the idea is that one finds that less and less actually originates with anything one normally considers one's "self," and unpleasant corrections in philosophy tend to occur.

...which is why I refer to the RHP as the "Real Headache Path" and the LHP as the "Larger Headache Path.""

Thank you Frater LR, now that I have looked a bit closer into all of this I realize what you are saying and correct me if once again I have it wrong . . . ultimately what we are trying to do here (the Great Work) is to know our Higher-Self, our Creator-Self per se?

If this is true could you briefly explain the Self-Deification theory that LHP's aspire to?

em hotep atlantis,

I am kidding of course, I am far from an expert on Qliphoth.
I also tend to agree a lot with Karllson's ideas.

@atlantis said

"Reading this I realize the need that people check out what people who have seriously investigated the qliphoth has to say and then if they are interested go about and investigate it themselves.
The only two books I can recommend is Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic by Thomas Karlsson and Nightside of Eden by Kenneth Grant, both in the Left Hand Path tradition.

Depending on the system of initiation, the goals one has set up and so on, the attitude to the qliphoth and the nightside aswell as the practical details on how one will try to encounter it will be dramatically different. The nightside demons can either be allies or foes."
What about Ankhhape? LOL!!

They're called binaural beats. I have been incorporating them into my musick for a while now with interesting results.

I think Pendragon (nice nick choice by the way) wants to know which books in what order would be most beneficial towards understanding Thelema, as I would also be interested in?

I know it is rather long and tiresome, but I figured I never post so when I do I should POST.

Further info that I saved a while ago that might be of relevance here

Zoharic Klippoth – The oldest texts claim the Qlippoth represent separation and gap. Though in the Merkabah the Klippah is the 'spiritual vehicle', and the later Zohar claims that this separation is necessary for the creation of distinct, individual objects. The separation is just a double edged sword here. Perhaps being a matter of degree.

Talmudic Klippoth – The Talmud claims that the Klippoth are the 'empty shells' of ancient divine powers that still contain isolated sparks giving them a basic limited consciousness. Zombie Gods separated from the living Deity. Later versions extended this to the mindless 'shells' of the dead, elemental remnants and 'thought forms'. Some moralistic teachings also claim these are the bodies of Man after the Fall (physical and/or astral). A broader though darker versions claim that all matter contains such creative 'fallen sparks'. Thus all material bodies vaguely conscious on this reading and Kliphotic and the focus of separation from the 'Godhead'. A foolish ascetic turn, demonizing matter.

Hasidic Klippoth – Here the claim is the more Kabalistic notion that the ancient Sephiroth on the Tree of Life had shells around them to separate them out as unique aspects of Divinity. But the first attempted creation failed when the Tree broke apart and these Sephiroth shattered (or the lower seven did), as they were too rigid, and new more flexible spheres had to form. The broken primal Sephiroth contain a residue of divine power, and are still active in the lower Abyss, but use their power to oppose the new Sephiroth and their unity. They are thus oppositional Kliphotic forces, which also act to ensnare and separate humanity from each other and their source.

Popular Judaism - In more populist Judaic versions the separated Klippoth are just those malign aspects of Nature separate from a perceived benign whole, or the proper relation of its parts, manifesting as thunder storms and car wrecks. Destructive, meaningless aspects that don’t fit a divinely holistic cosmos.

Modern Lurianic Klippoth – This combines the idea of separation with the notion of the LHP being evil. Basically after creation there forms an imbalance on the Tree in which the LHP is the most powerful - because its concerned with manifestation and separation - but the balance is restored by hiving off a portion of the LHP energy in isolated shells, which become the Qlippoth.

Sabbatian Klippoth – According to the inverted teachings of the heretical Kabbalist Nathan of Gaza the Klippoth are primeval forces of the Void (or Primal Space before Creation). Thus to encounter Klippoth is to encounter Chaos and the Abyss, and in some sense the Klippoth were seen as the Guardians of the Void. As such they were disconnected from the ordered Cosmos. They are emissaries from the 'In-Between', that chaotic potential between the dualistic opposites of the ordered Cosmos. Unformed Chaos however is held to be very destructive and so tends to get pushed down into the lower Abyss by the higher forms which rise above it according to Nathan. But the only 'evil' aspect here is merely their potential for chaos and dissolution. This dissolution in itself can be taped however in the dissolution of the personal ego and its reconstruction via the Kliphotic Gates of Knowledge. Nathan of Gaza regarded the Klippoth as potentially liberating, and in his book a Treatise on Dragons, refered to them as Dragons and Serpents. These are evoked or invoked in order to contact the Void. Another way according to some accounts is to reduce matter to Chaos alchemically. It is from Chaos that all Forms are derived, and so all Forms contain a potential Chaos trapped within them. This Chaotic power can be tapped from certain, unstable forms of matter, such as those in decomposition, fermentation, combustion or catalysis. The basis of alchemy. Therefore Kliphotic powers are said to be associated with all these processes. This Doctrine never became popular in mainstream Judaism and was denounced as heresy, but is close enough to a Lovecraftian model to attract many non-Jewish Occultists today.

Zionist Klippoth - It should also be mentioned that there appears to be an obscure Ultra-Orthodox belief that it was not imbalance but balance that created the Klippoth (or over active RHP?). That the first universe was balanced but this lacked strength and so energy leaked and formed isolated cells that became rebel Klippoth. This destroyed the first Tree and so the next was built stronger with a dominant LHP of severity to keep the Klippoth in check. This is held to explain the harsh nature of Jehovah and the World.

The basic Judaic idea then is to posit from observation in the context of a holistic living Cosmos (or more traditionally a Divinity) that some elements are fragmented and separate from it, and therefore out of tune or at odds with the smooth running of universe. The degree of separation and its extent (ranging from a few abyssal elements, through most of mankind, to the whole of the material world) varies between systems and depends on degrees of optimism and pessimism. Various negative phenomena are explained in terms of this theory and its application varies from superstitious beliefs to Kabbalistic theory. It also seems to have a secret positive aspect. In many of these doctrines an inner light is the link to the holistic whole. The degree of inner illumination corresponds to ones connectedness to the whole. Even the disconnected I said to retain a spark as a potential link back to the whole and a residue of consciousness (consciousness being produced by the holism). This light was referred to in Egypt as the Khabs. (hence Crowleys the Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs, meaning the light is internal within the soul, rather than an external aura as the Golden Dawn understood Khabs).

The Sabbatian differs in looking at the material externalities of the shell rather than the spiritual internalities for the (dis)connecting link, and looking for its positive expansive possibilities rather than its negative isolation. It seems to do this by postulating that a gap must exist externally between the shell and the world, or else it would be connected still. That is there is a material emptiness around the shell as well as a spiritual emptiness within it. Likewise it is only a partial gap as it still interacts with the whole to a certain extent. This means that a Klippoth has an aura of chaos or void around it. Which means encountering a Klippoth is to encounter chaos and being kliphotic is to be within the void. This has obvious magical and transformative possibilities.

Hermetic Qliphoth
(Spelling conforms to conventional spelling of 'Qabalah')
Due to an initial difficulty in accessing authentic Jewish Kabbalah, early Hermetic Qabalah tends to be both eclectic and idiosyncratic, though very creative, with regard the Klippah, who were never mentioned in the more familiar Renaissance Cabala.

Golden Dawn Qliphoth – These isolate powers were termed the Kings of Edom (deposed ancient kings) by MacGregor Mathers and for him represented an initially excessive RHP with consequent imbalance, energy discharge and separation, left over from a previous universe. An interesting inversion of the traditional Lurianic Din / LHP doctrine, perhaps derived from the Zionist beliefs mentioned above, RHP being the pillar of expansion and harmony, the LHP being that of contraction and disharmony. He idiosyncratically combined this with the Hasidic and Talmudic 'Ancient Ones' from a prior cosmos. Thus he founded the basis of modern Hermetic Kabbalah with its synthesis of various traditions.

Demonic Qliphoth – This is usually simply the correspondence of traditional Demonology with the Tree of Life. Usually ten or twelve orders of Demons and their rulers, seven Hells and twenty two lesser Demons. The idea seems to be the theological concept of rebel angels. It also often draws on Mathers interpretation of the Klippah and so probably dates to the Victorian period.

The Inverse Qliphoth – The basic idea put forward by Israel Regardie, and later Bill Heidrick. For Regardie they are simply the opposites of the well known Sephiroth on the Adverse Tree. The 'Evil Twins'. Heidrick elucidates a more detailed Demonic hierarchy of inverted or distorted Sephiroth. Both modes are ruled by Satan, who represents the disunion and oppositional dualism of a distorted Kether, the Sephiroth of Unity. In even more dualistic versions, such as that of Heidrick, the twin rulers are often Satan and Moloch.
The remaining are Belial (Beelzebub) – the Confuser of Wisdom; Lucifuge, Lord of Misunderstanding and Confusion; Astaroth, the Greedy Devourer; Asmodeus, the Mindless Destroyer; Belphegor, Lord of Darkness, Disharmony and Death; Baal*, the Hater and Rejecter; Adrameloch, the Ignorant Weakling; Lilith~, Corrupting Mistress of Freaks; Nehema; Queen of Fear (in the normally secure foundation of Malkuth).

But for Regardie the Qliphothic also includes 'evil matter' and the 'shells of the dead', harking back to matter as that separated and separating, and so the supposed source of dualism. Presumably this ties in with the above in the sense that the Tree of Life is a transcendent structure, or the ideal cosmic unity, while the material world (including the astral realm) is entirely separated off and so Kliphotic, which manifests itself in the Adverse Tree of Matter deep in the lower Abyss.

~Demonic Klippoth are problematic when they corrupt other archetypes such as Baal and Lilith, it may be worth replacing them with Baal Zebub and Lamashtu.

Imbalanced Qliphoth – Dion Fortune argued the Qliphoth were the result of an imbalanced Sephiroth, too much mercy and passivity producing weakness, or too much activity and severity causing cruelty. The misuse of natural magical forces was also Qliphothic. This preserved the old Judaic tradition that the shells represented either a revivification or over energizing of the Sephiroth, such as:
Kether- Futility, Chokhmah– Arbitrariness, Binah- Fatalism, Chesed– Ideology, Gevurah- Bureaucracy, Tipheret- Hollowness, Netzach- Routine, Repetition, Habit, Hod- Rigid Order, Yesod- Zombieism, Robotism, Malkut- Stasis.

These seem a more RHP demonization than a LHP one. An excess expansion rather than an inversion. It is also a very radical theory as it supposes the Qliphothic Tree is not a broken away relic from a perfect Tree, as in Judaism, but that the Tree itself is still imperfect and this scheme represents it modes of imperfection.

Nightside Qliphoth - Kenneth Grant claimed that Qliphoth are the repressed aspects of what he considers the rational, solar-phallic Sephiroth, that is they are the instinctual, lunar-feminine realms associated with the Faceless One, or Lilith, and the other Qliphoth. They are connected by the Tunnels of Set, the shadowy inversion of the Paths of the Tree. This is the Nightside of the Tree an alternative reality reached though Daath. It is an archaic primeval realm in which dwell the Ancient Ones, who are sometime associated with Lovecraft's Great Old Ones by Grant. It draws heavily, and creatively, on Nathan of Gaza.

Chaotic Qliphoth – Some modern ecological Occultists have associated the Qliphoth with those aspects of Nature, usually made or modified by Man, that have lost their connection with an holistic ecology. Thus most modern technology is in fact Qliphothic.

It is difficult to rationalize these schemas into a coherent whole, a general trend seems to be a psychologising of the cosmos with the Void being a cosmic unconscious. Thus encountering Qliphoth is like encountering isolated complexes and repressed material from the unconscious in these theories. There is also an attempt to define the nature of the Qliphothic Sephiroth in the lower Abyss. With one theory describing them as extreme versions of the true Sephiroth, a kind of neurotic repression of the excluded powers, and another as a lack or inversion of them, like the inverted dream world on the threshold of the deep unconscious. All could be taken as true if we see these as RHP, MP and LHP features, Infinite Excess, Lack and Inversion. And perhaps regard the three abyssal trees in the lower Abyss, budding off discharged imbalances in each of the pillars, each of which holographically generate a whole new Tree (the whole being contained even in Klippothic parts thanks to the spark of unity they retain). The idea of an inverted Tree in the lower Abyss is found in traditional Kabbalah, with little explanation. It also seems to have been accepted by Lurianic Kabbalists, indicating that in their scheme too a discharge of Kliphoth from the LHP was even then conceivable as generating a whole inverted Tree. This scheme would Kabbalistically imply three earlier failures in the Tree. Such an idea has been developed by London based Occultist Abraxis Oscurum in his Four Fold Klippah schema.

The Nightside Tree is quite different it is not just the repressed elements within the Kabbalistic system but the very inversion of the system itself, and so an alternative universe reachable only through Daath in the higher Abyss. Thus the Great Work here enters a meta-level here, not only are we concerned with internal repressions recognized by a patriarchal system but also the external repression that give birth to that patriarchy. Thus when we have balanced the Tree with regard to the forces of the lower Abyss, we must still take on the forces of the higher Abyss and transcend the limits of the traditional Tree into a greater Tree of Life worthy of the name.

Conclusion
All of these insights will contain an essence of truth, a truth that may be inconceivable as a whole, but from looking at them all a better perspective will be achieved.

The key concept of the Klippoth is separation or isolation. In a World seen as holistic this will be seen as evil and the cause of suffering. Such isolate cells will be seen as either cut off from other cells and the world and so lacking in energy (and associated with 'psychic vampirism') or supercharged with static energy like a capacitor, and occasionally discharging, a negative or positive state depending on origin or energy status at that time. On the other hand they are the basis of the individuation and objectification that allows differentiation and diversity.

The latter however are perhaps best seen in terms of the window (heh) that allows energy to flow in and out of the shell (a channel through the gap, or channels, perhaps chakras?). Such shells are thus semi-detached but not completely detached. It is easy to contextualize such relations either as external energy relations or internal psychologies, all things being parallel (as Microcosm-Macrocosm). The human individual is essentially Klipphotic but not fully, the totally Kliphotic is sociopathic. Similarly it can be applied to any closed off system, a Nationalist State could be said to be Kliphotic, as could a dogmatic belief system.

There is an important distinction of what separates in the above accounts, one account claims things (ie matter, material objects, bodies, beings, minds, concepts) emerge from a living chaos and are always separated by chaos (the 'in-between', whether material chaos, as in 'quantum potentia', or conceptual chaos as in indeterminacy or Derrida's 'difference', mental and physical being two aspects of the same 'thing'). Chaos also serves as an energy conduit, or basis of exchange, between things, if it has a 'window'. This chaos is the face of the Klippoth. Therefore the openness or closedness of the thing, or system, emerging from chaos, is determined by the degree of chaos in its boundaries. Thus Klippoth control the 'window', or the permeability of the shell. They thus become identified with the creation of shells.

The rival account is that it is the 'structured matter' that emerges from primal chaotic matter that is the source of separation. Whereas the first account is monastic, mind-matter emerging from living chaos spontaneously, and the psycho-physical vital energy involved being a property of chaos, and the mind-matter emerging from it. The second account is dualistic. Here primal chaotic matter is dead but is vitalized by living spiritual energy which 'enters' zones of it. When structured things emerge from this dead chaos, under the influence of living spirit inside them, their material shell partially, or completely, isolates them from each other, and spirit, and restrict the flow of energy.

Thus matter separates. In this account Klippoth are both primal and structured matter and opposed to the influence of formative spirit. The first account could be called Dionysian, and conforms to the ideas of thinkers like Heraclitus, Nietzsche and Klages. The second account could be called Apollonian, and conforms to classical thought and the thinking of the likes of Plato and the Rationalists. Arguably the first account is possibly true, while the second seems impossibly dualistic.

A theory of extremes is also evident in the accounts. Influenced by the morally dualistic notion that prefers one pillar of the Kabbalistic Tree over the other, usually the RHP, or Tree of Life, over the LHP, or Tree of Knowledge (though sometimes inverted), following biblical sanction or because the LHP represents seperation and so seen as potentially Klipphotic. The negative pillar is regarded as becoming over powerful - as evidenced by the 'immoral' state of the world - and not held in check by the positive pillar, so in the Kliphotic account that incorporates this tradition balance is sought not through strengthening the positive pillar but through a discharge of energy from the negative pillar. But the discharged energy gets encapsulated in its own shells and creates an Adverse Tree in a separate realm called 'the Other' (also called 'the Left', when the LHP is discharged. Note, as each Sephiroth contains all the others a whole Tree is regenerated). This Tree itself however is unbalanced becomes the opposer of the valued pillar on the now balanced Tree. Becoming the basis of the Klippoth and source of suffering. An alternative version has the over dominance of the pillar of severity represented by the over rigidity of an early Tree, which shatters and discharges energy downwards, where new, or old, spheres reform around it, creating an unbalanced Kliphotic Tree, beneath the now regenerated and more flexible upright Tree. Again the unbalanced forces act against the balanced.

Dion Fortune took a simpler, more dynamic version of this in which either pillar can become overcharged, as can any sphere, and a more traditional compensation is sought, but the overcharged sphere becomes a temporary Klippoth. Note, in this theory Klippoth must be transitory and the Tree unstable and imperfect. One reason the Adverse Tree theories may be popular is that after an initial problem the imperfection separates and leaves the Tree a perfect divine structure (even the compensatory theory implies an ongoing imperfection in the Tree). All these theories are more or less equivalent, with Fortune's theory being less morally absolute and more relativistic, but equally dependent on the ideal of constant harmony and moderation. Surely a limited and culturally biased viewpoint, which itself suppresses other possibilities.

This leads to the other interesting feature of some of these accounts where it is claimed the Klippoth are the suppressed mirror images of a Sephiroth. That is far from being balanced and harmonious the Tree is in fact imperfect and partial, with its own repressed shadow side. In fact as we've seen it could be claimed that even if the Tree really was harmonious it would still be repressing its opposite 'disharmony' and this would be its shadow side. More common however is the claim that the Tree is patriarchal and rationalistic, and so the shadow side is matriarchal and instinctual. Most typical of all though is the claim that the Sephiroth themselves are not perfectly balanced in opposing pairs, but that further repressed opposites are present, usually seen as undesirable or unnatural in a moral context, within a shadow Tree. This can be seen as the product of a Tree emerging from a Chaos that contains everything, including contradictions, and so there will always be some repressed aspect of it in an ordered universe. These repressed shadows are regarded as the Klippoth. This makes the shadow Tree a representation of the Unconscious Mind of Mankind, with all its repressed material, vices, fears and raw instincts. An interesting theory but far removed from the traditional notion of Klippoth. Some thus refer to all of these as Nega-Sephiroth rather than Klippoth.

A final consideration is the notion that Klippoth are hostile alienated Forces of Nature. This seems to be based on an over optimistic vision of Nature as a human friendly system. However natural disasters are every bit a part of a holistic Nature as happy accidents. What may be included in this category however are those mechanical human inventions that while equally forces of nature are alien to the ecosystem, or disconnected from it, devouring resources and pouring out waste products. Again the idea is of an isolated, closed system relative to the ecosystem.

Thus it appears there are several forms of Klippoth. Which actually corresponds to the tradition of their being four classes of Klippoth with Nogah being the topmost. In fact everything individualised is essentially Klippothic, though as has been stated most are only semi-detached and have 'windows' that filter the energy flow. These are the Nogah Klippoth and include human beings. The more open these are the easier they obtain energy, the more Kliphotic the easier they tire and close off, often resorting to 'psychic vampirism' to recharge. The 'Dark Brothers' as Crowley called them are almost entirely closed off and sociopathic (the closure's effect on their new social psychology) they have little energy and act as 'vampires' almost exclusively. They have no future however as their chance of post mortal survival within the cosmos has been lost.

This fate is shared by anything that looses its connection with the world and becomes isolated. The windowless Klippoth might be best described as Klipot, Klifot or Kelipot (a symbolic lack of h's). These are the forces that control and create (effectively are) the shells, they are also rightly called the Coiled Serpentine Klippot (that which grabs it tail and is closed). Though some also use the term Dragon for this. Uncoiled Serpents are the Nogah Klippoth.

We might also include the inverse or Nega-Sephiroth as a form of Serpentine Klippoth repressed opposite forms to the rigid, manifest forms. These classical Klippoth might better be referred to as the Klifot in contradistinction to the Klipot (the rigid closed forms of the primary Sephiroth). Kelipot might define any closed system. These of course are only suggestions though.

Those Forces of Chaos, and the Inbetween that we recognize as Klippoth may be best referred to as Kalipoth. These are the Draconic Klippoth (the winged serpents of contradiction). They are related to the primal Tiamatic Forces. They are also the repressed lunar forces of the Night Side.
We thus have hypothetical Nogah Klippoth, Klipot, Klifot and Kalipoth forms.

Use of Qliphothic Magick
No manuals of Qliphothic Magick exist, as far as is known, other than those of modern speculation, such as the following.

By its very nature Qliphothic Magick will often be 'Black Magick'. The most obvious form is a closing off of something to preserve and build up power, the source of this energy being sort vampirifically. Why anyone should want to do this given the connected access to infinite seas of energy is uncertain, it may represent the desperate countermeasures of a being that knows it is about to disintegrate, or simply a perfection of the natural state of the sociopath. On the hand this kind of isolation also surrounds the magician with an aura of chaos giving them powerful magical potential. To a certain extent all magickians need to seal themselves off in chaos to some extent. This may be the origin of the chariot working. Similarly Qliphothic entities bring chaos and energy and so are sort after magical allies.

A more positive aspect of Qliphothic Magick is demon healing, knowing where the pools of isolate energy are and reconnected them. This can also be a self working, the discovery of isolated complexes in our psyche, and other dark repressed material, and its reintegration.

Here are a few concepts I skimmed from various resources, do any of these concepts fit in with the Thelemic view?

Description of Energy Parasitism
The Qliphoth are negative or entropic beings in the universe, and are the opposite of the Sephiroth.

The main way that the Qliphoth receive energy from people in general is through the viral meme that is called Ego. We are all infected with the dissonant meme Ego, and as a result, we are all feeding the Qliphoth. What the Ego does is divert our energy away from ourselves, and the knowledge of ourselves, and towards the Void within us (Kia), which is linked somehow to the Void where the Qliphoth dwell. Instead of energy and expression coming from the Kia, the polarity is reversed. Energy is devoured, but the Void can never be filled.

They are the unnatural force in the Universe which drives people towards death, self-destruction, and suffering, because this is what the Qliphoth craves as food.

Miriadic Explanation of the Qliphoth
Molar Mountre has often explained the Qliphoth to be the forces responsible for the lack of the continuation of human evolution. The reason behind this is that the Qliphoth, who can easily exist in the Great Void due to their "nature", feed off of Entropy.

Scholem's Interpretation of Evil
According to Scholem, the Zohar interprets evil as "the residue of the hidden life's organic processes." Evil is something which has been cast off, but the spark of Life, from God, has fallen upon it, giving it "life". It is a form without force inside it, a hollow shell, and an empty illusion. It is the cast off "skin" of the Sephiroth.

Lurianic Kabbalah The Toroidal Universe
If the ideal shape of the higher dimensional continuum of the universe is the shape of a tube torus, then the Abyss that the Qliphoth seem to come from is the empty middle of the torus. It is the zero point of the dimensional continuum. If the Qliphoth had to cross the center of this dimensional or temporal continuum to get here (it is likely that this crossing happened at the Fracturing in the times of Atlantis), then they came from the Abyss and their momentum was fundamentally backwards to ours. Instead of living off of the energy of Flow as we do, the Qliphoth lived off of the negative energy of Entropy, or when energy is dispersed, due to death, or other means of Entropy.

@noctivagus said

"
@Cliff Oth said
"from my notes:
The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the ToL and further into the ToK. the Qliphoth being veiwed as fruits of the ToK"

The problem with this view is that you make a false duality. You can't devide the creation from the source. As it is said, Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether but in a diffrent order. The great work I belive is not to unite but to realice that there is no division. But this is not as easy as it sounds. "
Why can't you divide the creation from the source? Why can't you become a creator and no longer a creation?

@bethata418 said

"THELEMA

hello my name is Gunner, i am current living in roanoke VA, but this should change within 2-3weeks, i am transfering with my presnet job to north NJ.

so lets see, how did i come to here, posting on a temple of thelema forum? well i was about 12 years old, and i was starting my whole teenage rebellion. at that time i was a big marilyn manson fan, at that young age he represented my rebellion and i read every interveiw by him, tried to dress like him etc. in an interveiw he metioned that his religious beliefs were based off anton levay and aleister crowley, so i bought the satanic bible, 777, book of lies. my 12 year old mind understood the satanic bible but knew it was not the religion i was looking for, with 777 & the book of lies i didnt understand what was written, but i could understand that there was a real system and spirit behind it, unlike anton levays system. so i kept studying these books and bought more and more of aliester crowleys work, about a year after i got on this path i bought the book abrahadabra by rodney orpheus, i guess this was about 1997, and that book really helped me understand thelema, also it was with that book i started to do magick meditation.
then about 2 years ago i started going to see the gnostic mass @ the OTO nearest here, and soon after joined. and i have heard great things about the TOT/COT,so it has basically lead me here.

and on juan's art work, from what i have seen it is great, and i would consider him a great artist.

AGAPE

Gunner
Fr.418"

Greetings Gunner, I am located in Northern NJ . . . perhaps we will bump into one another someday . . . and not know it LOL

An interesting read concerning this lost sacred language is in Mitzi De Whitt's book "Nearly All and Almost Everything" where she mathematically ties together the 22 Shruti, 22 Tree of Life paths and Gurdjieff's Fourfold Works.

I think that Rudolph Steiner had some very insightful things to say about this also. Primordial vibrations manifest in the physical and how they were used to commune with higher divinities.

It is also interesting how Just Intonation tuning is the scale of nature.