College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

That is a very good recommendation Jim.
I also recommend checking out the **current **litterature released from people in the Order you are looking into.

Great!
Anyway. Anyone interested in how one can look at the Qliphoth from an initiatory thelemic perspective can read back some posts in the thread.

What would you say are the most important specifically *thelemic *books (aside from the wonderful but for some people, especially those with no practical knowledge on the Qliphoth, a bit difficult to read books by Grant) on issues relating to the qliphothic initiation?

I would of couse say Liber AL, Book of Lies and Liber 231.

It is an interesting topic you are raising, but it maybe it could get a little bit more on topic?

Tears in relation to the Angel is very usual.
It is a "good" sign. You are getting more and more ready for the gnosis.

Hi!

With meaning I try to indicate something in an "existential" sense of the word.
Just to clarify.

Well if someone does not want do dig down into the shitty parts of themselves and reality that is fine.
Some have the Will to do so: there is gnosis to be found in that which is terrifying, those truths that disgusts us or shatters our world completely - that which we don´t want to see, that which breaks down the ego. Actually, in a sense it could be described as a journey where one seeks truth - not truth in any philosophical sense - whatever it would mean. It is the abandoning and giving up of everything. The egos perceptions on what one supposed to find, those shiny light pictures that the sephirothic ego builds up about what gnosis is will be shattered.
Indeed, this is where *meaning *(which is a kind of ego-masturbation within the mind) has to be overcome.

This undercurrent within both western and eastern esoterisism is not new, it is old.
To each his own..

I think it seems that Bertiaux does not have that interpretation of the Qliphoth, but rather something in line with Luria et al. At least that is what I have deducted from people I have met within the OTOA.

The idea of the highest aspect of the Qliphoth as "pre-dating" the Sephiroth.

"The point is that all magical working is essentially involves klipot until the ego is completely transecended. The irony is that many would-be magicians seek initiation into the very sphere they already operate in and it is unikely that very few make it out of that domain."

Sure, the Qliphoth is great in breaking down the Sephirothic ego-complex. That is one of the main results of using the first levels of the Qliphoth. After the ego is done with one proceeds with other mysteries, such as those related to the infinite life, kaivalya and so on.
I agree with that many magicians get stuck in their initiation. That is why it is good to work with a real *initiatory *Order that knows how to handle the alchemical process.

"The LHP is to be found in tantra, but is represents a very small part of the vast corpus of tantric material in classical Indian philosophy."

Tantra is not limited to "classical Indian philosophy" whatever that might mean. I am not so knowledgeable about indian tantra. My focus has been different buddhist variants of left hand path tantra.
But as far as I have understood, the vamachara tantras are quite many (whatever that has to do with anything).
Today the word Left Hand Path in the west is used as a meta-tradition, where tantra is one part. Sadly, the word has a problematic history of misconceptions surrounding it. Blavatsky, LaVey, Crowley and some others have added their share of misconceptions. But others, such as Grant and Karlsson have pointed the word back to its real current.

@AEternitas1 said

"This nonsense about left hand path and right hand path and all that is a bit immature in my opinion. The magician rises straight up, straying neither right nor left. He stands with his feet in the deepest abyss and his head in the highest Heavens."

Well, certainly not all magicians do. There are those which when they feel the hellfire under their feet try to banish it. The reason why I talk about the Left Hand Path (which is a classic concept of tantra) is that it points to the possibility of not only working with the Right hand. Grant makes it quite clear that Crowley worked with the Left Hand Path, even though he seldom wrote about the dark mysteries. Liber 333 and 231 are quite qliphothic though!

@TheSilent1 said

"
I don't see how what I do is either right or left, it is merely a method. My point was simply that there is no evidence to support the spirits of the goetia as being qliphotic, and I also gave a formula by which to deal with them. The simple fact that I have given something a purpose does not mean that I have subdued it, you are implying that:

1. the spirit has a will of it's own [which may or may not be true/if true then it's will would certainly be in line with god of it's sphere]
2. that I have somehow through force or what not I have made it go against it's will which is NOT THELEMA! [which tells me you don't even see the elegance of the system that I have outlined]

If you feel the need to color techniques as black or white or right or left, well that is your limited paradigm. Honestly, I can't see how you can possibly see the light from the muck of the sewers, but to each their own.
"

This seems to become a discussion of vocabularly. Something I quite uninterested in. Yes, through mine and alot of my friends research in goetic magic I think it is quite clear that these entities (as I mainly prefer to call them) have will and some of them are interested in aiding the adept in the initiatory work. I can only make a very simple evaluation of what you describe and notice they they seem to be quite close to what I see from people that work with the goetic entities in a way that could be more beneficial from an initiatory perspective: where the central theme is the building up of alliances with them so that they can guide the adept into the Qliphothic mysteries.

I see nothing "wrong" in approaching the spirits of the goetia from the perspective that they can help with mundane things.
I also see nothing "wrong" in the concept of shutting out and banishing the darkness. I just note that there is a possibility of doing something else. This is generally called the Left Hand Path. There is no moral or idea of higher/better, lower/not good in this. Just like I would call a chair a chair and a table a table or talk about a "thai" or "mexican" kind of food. This makes discussions easier generally. Of course there are nuances. We live in a global world after all filled of individuals. Some people like to label what they do as "Thelema", for different reasons. I mainly agree with Crowleys relation to words that he describes in Liber 333.

Goetic spirits are great guides of reality. They can teach the adept how to come in contact with not only the Sephirothic "Holy Guardian Angel" but also its Qliphothic counterpart; the Black Sun and the Dark Angel - which Kenneth Grant and Thomas Karlsson talks about.

They have a high initiatory value.

Great stuff!

I have been thinking of making something a bit different, with backsupport for workings that stretch over a period of days.

Use it well! Great that you wanted to share your invention

The difference between working with them from a RHP perspective (which you seem to be doing) is that doing that means that you have already decided that the gnosis of the left emanations is to be stayed away from.
The AbraMelin is a good example of this. The idea that you are supposed to meet and subdue, definately not open up to and be initiatiated by, these forces.

That is quite different than the Left Hand Path. Of course, these demons could be of aid for doing such things as finding a lost wallet as a small favor to you. But that is quite different than meeting these forces in a way where one does not try to sudbue them with for instance the sun of Tiphareth. The adept only climbing the tree of life and not receiving initiation into the tree of knowledge may have the idea that he is superior to these spirits and see them as insignificant. That is however not strange; what is outside of the horizon when you have the experience that the place where you are standing right now is important, what lies beyond the horizon is just not interesting.

I am not saying either is better. I am saying there is more to this particular cake than the first layer.

Ps: In just the same way as you on the street would pass by a secret chief and not notice it, maybe ask her to spare some change for your busticket and afterwards think: "Oh, everything runs so smoothly in my life."

Sure, the secret chief might help you with that, but that says nothing about what she might be able to do for you had you asked and been ready for something else.

If you are not contacting them to make alliances, it can be quite wise to protect yourself in the way that works best. IE: if one is not working with the Left Hand Path.
These demons might seem quite un-initiatory in the beginning when one browse through their descriptions. But even the descriptions sometimes can be quite clear about the initiatory value of some of them, quite plainly. See for instance Paimon, a personal favorite.

A demon which at face value seems to be about getting laid or making people undress is not only able to do such things; they often have a good understanding of sexuality, and can be great mentors in sexual alchemy - an example of the depth of these descriptions.

The Goetic demons can indeed do the described things for the magician - but I think you underestimate their power and their own interests.

For the adept of the Left Hand Path (by which I mean an adept who works with the Left hand aswell - not trying to subordinate it or shunning it) the Goetic entities are possible alliance partners - they can initiate the adept into many aspects of the trees.

1. Sure. That can be one way of looking at it. And it has its merits from a practical viewpoint. Thus: to be able to expand the horizons from the limiting aspects of the Sephiras, the Qliphas is used. The descent into the Qliphas becomes a method of initiation.

2. Indeed. Most of these entities are more closely connected to the Qliphas. Although some also provide initiation on how to use the Sephiras. Those that do not are quite dangerous to work with.

The Qliphoth can mean many different things. It could have its beginnings in for instance:

1. Ain Soph (and thus be beyond a beginning, rather that which everything has its beginning in)
2. Binah
3. Din or Geburah
4. Hod
5. Malkuth

There are many Qabalistical ways of looking at the Qliphoth. Depending on the nature of the Qabalistical system, the view of the Qliphoth differs.
See for instance the book by Thomas Karlsson: "Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic".

Alrah: trancending it.

veritas_in_nox: precisely.

"Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic" by Thomas Karlsson. It is a great book about alot of central issues within Qabalah and also its darker aspects; the Qliphoth and the Tree of Knowledge.
If one is interested in Qabalah or Gnosticism it is a must read. It is informative, historically sound and contains alot of perspectives from different Qabalists.

Information from the publisher:
ajnabound.com

"
Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic is a unique practical introduction to magic. The main thread of the book is the exploration of the Qliphoth and the dark mysteries which have for so long been a repressed part of western esotericism. Instead of ignoring and denying the dark side, the author reveals, step by step, how man can get to know his Shadow and, through this, reach a deeper knowledge of the Self. By exploring and not by repressing the Shadow it can be transformed from a destructive force into a creative power.

The book deals with the problem of evil, the symbolism behind the fall of Lucifer and man’s creation process according to Qabalistic philosophy.

The theories that are presented in this book are also linked to practice. Several examples of rituals, meditations, magical exercises and occult correspondences can be found within. Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic contains more than one hundred demonic sigils and pieces of art that were created specifically for this book. A unique collection of all the sigils from the classic grimoires Lemegeton: The Lesser Key of Solomon and the infamous Grimorium Verum are also included.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Thomas Karlsson has studied and practiced the occult sciences for more than fifteen years and is the founder of the esoteric order Dragon Rouge. He is a doctoral candidate in the History of Religion and holds a M. A. in the History of Ideas. Thomas Karlsson authored the book Uthark—Nightside of the Runes (Ouroboros Produktion, 2002) and gives seminars and lectures on a regular basis."

My point is basically that what Crowley talks about as the LHP (The Black Brothers) have nothing to do with the LHP since breaking ego is central and key to the LHP.

Crowleys word LHP is derived from the misconceptions of Blavatsky. Crowley, being unknowledgeable about Tantra simply continued in this vain.

What do you mean with LHP here?
A Black Brother or the real Left Hand Path?

The definition of the Left Hand Path that Crowley used was his variant of the misunderstanding of the Left Hand Path by Blavatsky. Crowley ties the word to his idea of the "Black Brother": guys and gals that for some reason do not want to lose the ego.

So just from that it is very clear that neither the western nor eastern Left Hand Path traditions can be compared to what Crowley talks about as the Left Hand Path since a core thing within these traditions are learning how to get rid of the ego.

But then again, there are some people who do not have much to do with esoterism that have used the word in a bogus fashion, for instance LaVey and the people that came after him..