@Avshalom Binyamin said
"Ego expansion is, I think, a common side effect of spiritual experiences."
Funny that you say that, because had I not experienced it directly I would have suspected ego-death. It's my understanding that ego-death is, in fact, precisely what Buddhists seek in severing themselves from the Samsara cycle of re-birth.
Would Thelemites argue that re-birth is desirable? Or at least preferable to the alternative?
@Jim Eshelman said
"
Or, to take that a different way: One of the most common errors that people make is that they think of "themselves" as something different from "everybody else." Think of Hadit as a single point within infinite space: That point isn't separate from infinite space, it's simply one distinguished location (or point of view) within the space. Similarly, none of us (no point) is separate from all of us (infinite space). Our True Will is a particularized expression, through a distinguished point, of a pattern that is infinitely larger than the most sublime idea of ourselves (let alone the idea of what we usually think of as ourselves).
"
Many years ago... approximately a decade ago actually, I had an experience that I believe Buddhists call a "satori" experience during a meditative state.
It felt as if the equation that makes up reality was being simplified... not unlike an algebra problem being simplified to it's lowest common denominator (forgive me if that makes no sense, math is not my strong suite). Once it had reached this "simplest term", it was represented by a sound, an image, and a sensation. It was accompanied with a single unit of knowledge that seemed to explain, quite literally, everything, with a solution so simple and obvious that it seemed impossible to miss... stupid to miss even, and impossible to forget.
There was a sensation of being both incredibly, infinitely expansive and large, yet infinitesimally tiny.
The moment was perhaps the briefest and longest of my life, but the moment it was over, the everything began to rapidly unfold once again as I desperately grabbed for the slipping and expanding pieces.
Despite this experience, over the years I've found myself becoming increasingly individualistic... or to use a term I'm just beginning to understand, far more "Hadit" than "Nuit."
Is this something that should concern me? What steps should I take to even this balance?
@Takamba said
"
You haven't told me how long your supervised (probation) status is to be.
"
It began in November 2010... it will be finished by November this year. I was fined approximately $2500.
@Takamba said
"
I hope you find something you can learn."
I'm definitely finding all of this educational.
I'm also hoping, that unless you all find this particular subject to be particularly relevant to my "early education", we can veer away from the topic of my legal issues because, as I said before, it's a very small part of my life... and one that's going to be quite resolved relatively soon.
@Takamba said
"A couple of things to say: When it comes to Liber OZ, specifically that very popular phrase that it is "man's right" to "kill those who would thwart these rights" I pondered deeply and reached the conclusion that only ideas, laws, and the gods have any power equivalent to being able to "thwart these rights." Individuals do not have such power, and so are exempt from this alleged death penalty. Only by agreement did you get cited with criminal behavior (you could have flown, lived on the lam, fought it out tooth and nail, but you didn't). You are agreeing to a certain level of conformity with your neighbors."
THAT makes excellent sense. Much more sense than the interpretation that seems to suggest one has the right to "off" the legislative branch of the government, lol. I mean, that doesn't quite seem right 
Okay, well this gives me a much clearer understanding of what you've been getting at... that and a valuable insight into interpreting Liber Oz. Much gratitude. And on a side note, I love your dap to the Beastie Boys... I'm going to deeply miss Adam "MCA" Yauch.
In any case, since my run-in with the law in October of 2010, I've actually been 100% sober... although the occasional intoxication has never impeded my ability to achieve the things I sought after. So while I comfortable with the sobriety of my current lifestyle, I'm not sure it has any direct value in my development.
Circumstantially, that may be an entirely different story.
In any case, I can definitely appreciate the value of a life fraught with struggle... I certainly wouldn't want to live an "easy" life, so in that regard I'm certainly getting what deserve.
I've always felt that comfort leads to stagnation... that one should live life like a flowing river rather than like a scummy, stationary pond.
Thank you for your insight.
@Jim Eshelman said
"With a caveat that I'm not putting words in Takamba's mouth but, rather, springboarding off his post to speak for myself...
"You broke the law, you got caught, there are consequences" probably sounds like a defense of the law. (At least, it probably sounds that way to somebody who eventually will read this <g>.) It isn't. It's just stating facts, circumstances in which you exist.
Given the fact that it is raining on a particular day, should you choose to go out in the rain without an umbrella or hat, and walk several blocks, you will get your head wet.
This is, philosophically, exactly the same as:
Given the fact that you live where the possession of ABC is illegal, carrying ABC on your person will result in your getting arrested."
CRYSTAL CLEAR... and completely understood. If I sounded like I was debating something like that, I apologize.
However Takamba, and I don't want to put words into his mouth, seems to be implying that I should feel that my punishment was just. Is it not possible that I can fully acknowledge the undeniable fact that my actions led to the consequences and yet feel that consequence is not justifiable, and a violation of my human rights?
@Takamba said
"CrazyRockwellXCIII, this is not "a trifling matter" (as you so warmly describe it). And yes, as Jim pointed out - you are the one who introduced the concept of Parole into this conversation. Now you are describing probation - and on top of that, something even less intrusive than probation. Really? Like a visiting social worker? Oh please - don't whine to me about trifles.
"
...who's whining? See my last post, I'm openly acknowledging that I misspoke. I had meant "probation officer." I have to visit him once a month.
@Takamba said
"
Your interpretation of the Law of Thelema, so far as I am able to understand you, is that you believe you should be free from the Wheel of Karma (ie - not suffer punishment as punishment violates your right to liberty - so you say).
"
Oh no, certainly not! I apologize if I gave you that impression. My understanding, and I thought it was pretty clearly spelled out in what I read, is that I have the right to "eat, drink, etc as I will."
Now, quite obviously, I committed a crime. My crime, however, was not against a person. In Constitutional terms, I believe in the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and in that order. In the pursuit of my happiness, I did not impede anybody's rights to life, liberty, or happiness, and therefore, think punishment in this particular circumstance is unjustified.
@Takamba said
"
So as I understand your circumstances, it goes something like this: you received a gift from someone that happens to be illegal to posses. Was this gift given to you against your will? Did you carry this gift from place to place against your will?
"
It was 100% my choice to receive, possess, and carry this gift. I'm failing to see the problem with that... or why these decisions make my arrest justifiable in the cosmic scale of things. Do you mean to say that if something is illegal, it's illegal, and if the standard punishment is over the top I'm still deserving of it because I was aware of the potential consequences?
@Takamba said
"
No it's not double talk.
"
@Takamba said
"
Did you will yourself to prison? In a way, you did (and of course, in a way, you didn't).
"
I said it sounds like double talk. A deeper understanding of your philosophical points may change that perspective for me, but as we all know, I'm new to this. Please don't be offended.
@Takamba said
"
You are not a victim, you are a perpetrator who got caught. So that kind of comparison is rather offensive to victims of actual physical assaults. You committed, willingly, a misdemeanor crime and got caught. So now you have a type of "yoga" you are required to live by. For all you and I know, this is going to help you discover your True Will (not to be confused with your desire to smoke a bowl or go to the bar)."
I certainly didn't mean to offend... I'm simply trying to make a comparison. This is an exercise in logic and philosophy for me, not an excuse to justify myself to strangers. I'm sorry if you dislike my example, but it seems to me like an accessible and easily understood comparison... but I'm DEFINITELY NOT trying to say that getting busted for weed is like getting sexually assaulted, in terms of severity.
Am I to understand, though, that the fact that possession of weed is a misdemeanor crime trumps my human right to "eat/drink/etc as I will"?
Let me also be clear that I don't confuse my desire to enjoy the things I find pleasurable with my True Will.
Thank you for engaging in this dialogue with me. I'd like to continue to hear your thoughts on the matter.
@Jim Eshelman said
"CR, I just want to point out that you were the person who first used "parole," leading to the understandable misunderstanding that followed."
Why... your absolutely right. I misspoke. Misunderstandings completely understood now.
@Jim Eshelman said
"Well, that IS what this forum is all about
Lol, sorry, I think I'm funny.
@Jim Eshelman said
"No, but it does indicate a choice for some set of phenomena that would naturally arise out of the context. This could be (for example): quiet compliance with the law; noisy compliance with the law; a covert, secretive lifestyle hiding from the law; setting yourself up for confrontations with the law; taking on the law to challenge it; or moving to another location where there is a more desirable set of conditions. (And, of course, many more.)
It may also imply a need to punish oneself, the need for a lesson in humility, a setup for political activism, a need to be where other suffering and suppressed people need support, a motivation to leave the area, a positioning of oneself to be a witness to that phase of history, or countless other things. In any case, it isn't inconsequential and isn't without choice."
So... either getting busted in this way is a fumble on my behalf, a failure to follow my true will... or it was some sort of horrible booby-trap that I set up for myself whilst floating in the void between life and death in order to teach myself a lesson in... using my turn signal? Or am I looking at this on too small a scale?
Please don't take my tone as one of mockery. I'm taking these concepts seriously... it's just that life is hilarious to me.
I'm familiar with a concept of "limited free-will", the idea of being cast into life with a certain amount of forward momentum and inertia... uni-directional travel through the fourth dimension. Being born male, in Somalia, in poverty (not me, hypothetical). Circumstances of birth can be limiting, but within the three dimensional inner-tube of possible reality (is this making sense?), there's a certain amount of steering involved... choices made that both limit some possibilities and make some new ones available. At least, that's how I've been imagining it.
However, when you speak of choosing the circumstances of one's birth, it seems to imply that the choices I make here and now were in some way... predetermined? Plotted out in advance by some other Crazy Rockwell I do not remember?
And what of those who would impose their will upon me? I certainly don't mean to shirk responsibility for my own life, but why would Liber Oz bother addressing the matter (quite gravely, at that) if the bad things in my life are either (A.) my fault for not following my true will, (B.) some sort of sabotage I set up for myself as a punishment, something to learn from, something to grow from.
This seems to imply that, literally, everything that happens is justified and "right", for lack of a better word.
Are there no circumstances of injustice?
This concept, whether or not I'm fully understanding it, raises some interesting questions about free will.
Spoken word and dance? That sounds like a fascinating combination... you use these two forms in tandem or alternately?
In any case, I'd love to perhaps work out some kind of artistic equal exchange... I'll show you mine if you show me yours... no pun or innuendo intended.
@Uni_Verse said
"I could communicate with you via AIM, but only through text (as I mentioned earlier, I do not have a sound/video capturing device)."
Uni, that would be absolutely perfect. I'll return your PM so that we can work out a time and exchange screen-names.
THANK YOU!
@Takamba said
" I suspect there's plenty you aren't telling me."
Well my friend, of course there's plenty I'm not telling you... although I wouldn't so much say "not telling you" as "publicly proclaiming on a message board."
Then again, if you're interested, and because it seems to have become relevant in a philosophical context, I'm willing to share this in the interest of disclosure for the sake of receiving insight.
@Takamba said
"Stems? When did possession of stems become a felony? It has to be a felony for it to be parole (early supervised release from a state or federal penitentiary). "
It becomes a felony when you have... I want to say it was 30 grams? I am NOT, however, on parole, and I was NOT convicted of a felony. There is no incarceration involved in my situation. I received "supervised supervision" (a gentler form of probation), and am not on "parole". The stems were an unpurchased gift, and would probably have made a fine tea for guests visiting my home. I'm a gracious and generous host.
I was sober when I was pulled over for a minor traffic infraction by an officer who dislikes me... BECAUSE about 6 years prior he illegally detained me, illegally searched me, came up with a gram, and was embarrassed when the judge threw out the case for violating my 5th Amendment rights and chastised him in front of his peers.
Beyond these incidents, my record is 100% spotless.
@Takamba said
"Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but [(*edited) probation] is a harsh penalty for stems."
No forgiveness necessary. Not only was it harsh, but it seems to me it was a clear violation of my human rights.
@Takamba said
"The state isn't likely to waste money on paroling someone who has less than a five year total sentence, so chances are you committed a severe violation of the law of the land of your chosen birth."
Once again, and I want to hammer this home, I did not receive a jail sentence, nor am I on parole.
Lol, well... we're getting a bit metaphysical here, but let me say that we can't all choose to be born in Amsterdam... and even if we could I doubt I'd "choose" the location of my birth based upon something as trite as reasonable, humane, drug laws.
Furthermore, I contend that although I'm willing to entertain the idea that I "chose" to be born here, I would argue that doesn't necessarily imply that I agree with every piece of BS legislation imposed upon the people here. Being born in Jim Crow's America, for example, would not imply complicity and subservience to racial segregation. Perhaps I "chose" to be born here specifically because improvements could be made.
@Takamba said
"Did you will yourself to prison? In a way, you did (and of course, in a way, you didn't).
In any case, by whatever means, you did not do what is called "True Will" unless going to prison is what you want to call your True Will. Who knows?"
No offense, but that sounds like a lot of double-talk to me.
Suppose you replaced "going to prison" with "getting raped." Would you tell a violated person that, due to the outcome, they did not do their "True Will"? I'm not being facetious, this is a serious question.
As far as "who knows", if anyone I would think it would be me. Unless I'm misunderstanding some basic concepts here (which is totally possible), I'm pretty sure I have a pretty good idea as to what my True Will is, what exactly I'm meant to manifest.
Just to be clear, I don't want to come across as being contentious here. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to discuss Thelemic ideas and philosophy. Thank you for the response, and nice to meet you!
*edit
This is all a very small part of my life. I originally brought this up as a joke, the idea of explaining to my PO that I have an inalienable human right to "eat/drink as I will." I'm not having any problems dealing with this minor legal issue, and it will all be over come November... so unless there are some points brought up here that are particularly relevant to Thelema, I'd like to move the conversation away from this trifling matter.
@Takamba said
"I'm only going to address a portion of the above. If you are imprisoned (on parole), this suggests you violated the Law of Will to get yourself to that point and you will have to endure its consequences until you learn better."
Lol, oh did I?
Could you elaborate for me then, exactly what is the "Law of Will"? I've made it clear that I'm not well versed in Thelemic philosophy but I am, and I don't think mistakenly, under the impression that "Do what thou wilt" is the entirety of the law.
It seems to me that being put on "supervised supervision" (diet probation, probation "lite" if you will) for the offense of possessing a bag of stems is hardly a situation I should learn from. I've certainly not imposed my will over another individual's... if anything my human rights are being violated by the will of those who would claim to know what's best for me.
It's a given that I will have to "endure the consequences" of my position, but it certainly doesn't feel like justice.
Do these more specific details pertaining to the nature of my situation change your assessment, or would you still say that I've "violated the Law of Will" and need to "learn better"?
Jim, MUCH GRATITUDE for the relevant link and technical insight. This is definitely the kind of information I'm seeking.
Another specific question: what exactly marks the Aeon of Horus? Am I to take Crowleys word for it that the rules have changed? Does this "change" imply that in the previous Aeon man was NOT responsible for himself... if not, then to whom was man responsible?
How does this effect my relationship with my parole officer? Seriously. How shall I reconcile the fact that I have the right to consume as I please (to the point of being permitted to destroy those who would thwart my will) and the reality of living in a society that seeks to put limits on my personal pleasure?
I'd like to once again put out that I would like to have a live conversation with somebody, ideally several somebodies... after 5pm central in some sort of a AIM, Skype, or other live chat format.
@Ash said
" In fact, it might even be better to attend one without knowing what the symbolism means so that you won't get too hung up on the intellectual side of things.
Do you have any specific questions though?
"
I'm rather analytical by nature, so such a suggestion strikes me as counter-intuitive (from my personal perspective), but I'm absolutely willing to give it a shot. I'm certainly looking for opportunities to meet people within the Thelema community.
I can appreciate the strength of symbolism without full intellectual understanding, but wouldn't a symbol be more potent when contemplated with at least some degree of personal meaning?
Specific questions... most absolutely. Like for example, is there any particular chronological order in which I ought to approach Thelemic literature? More particularly, literature I can consume before approaching The Book of the Law?
Perhaps my statement that I'm "looking for someone to hold my hand" is poorly worded... it's the individualistically interpretive nature of Thelema that appeals so deeply to me. I feel I've a capacity for this "school of thought" if you will, but I would very much like to engage in some "live" conversations and get pointed in a direction or two.
All of the responses are GREATLY appreciated. Please keep 'em coming.
@Uni_Verse said
"I have a habit of not properly introducing my self to people.
Packaging! That pays the bills? Free~ stuff plz! 
I am just now getting serious about sharing my own artistic endeavors."
BINGBINGBING!
PM me and we'll work out a method by which I can transfer it to you. What sort of arts are you involved in?
@Edward Mason said
"93,
Close - but its love UNDER will, not over. Important diff."
Oh yes, that's right. Love being powerful, yet potentially self-destructive without the guidance of will, is this correct?
@Edward Mason said
"I used to write about flexible packaging for a living - EVOH and polymeric barrier materials, tie-layers, lamination and such. But I never tried eating 50 boiled eggs. "
No kidding? Our specialty is clean-room packaging, but we also do quite a bit of printing, converting, and lamination. We're getting a 10-color press in a couple of months, which should be nice.
@Dar es Alrah said
"93,
93 93/93."
Do what thou wilt. Love over Will.
Am I correct? I've done some summary research, but I've much to learn.
See my thread in the Thelema forum, I'm hoping to find someone willing to talk to me in a more "immediate" medium.
Howdy. 93's. What's crackin'?
My name is Crazy Rockwell. I put up a thread in your "introduce yourself" forum.
Where to begin?
I've read Liber Oz and I like what I see. I've read the first chapter of The Book of the Law and hardly understand a word of it... although I'm reluctant to ask for interpretation given the "Statement" at the end.
However, what I am looking for is some sort of direct contact with somebody well versed in Thelema to speak with. I had intended to attend the local Chicago OTO (Aum-Ha Lodge) temple's "open to the public" beach barbeque but work on recording my next album took priority.
They have the occasional public ceremony but what I'm really looking for is the opportunity to have some one-on-one conversation with somebody who knows Thelemic philosophy intimately in a more casual setting. I'm fascinated, but at this point I don't think it would be beneficial for me to sit through an impenetrable ritual complete with pageantry and symbolism that would be without meaning for the uninitiated.
I'm wondering if anybody might be available to have a chat with me, answer some questions, and walk me through some of the basics. Ideally, in some sort of "live" format, preferably Skype or something like that.
SO, who's got some time to hold my hand? Any takers?
In my personal experience with message boards, these "introduce yourself" sections don't seem to get much traffic so I'm doing this mostly as a formality.
Howdy. My name is Crazy Rockwell. I'm a poet, a hip-hop artist, and a manufacturer of flexible packaging. If you can guess which one of those occupations pays my bills then I'll send you a free copy of my last album.
I'm a musician, a libertarian, a virgo, and a skeptic. I've had a long time fascination with the occult, studied it broadly but without much depth or personal experience.
That being said, it's not the "occult" nature of Thelema that brings me here, but the philosophy. That may change, we'll have to see.
Once upon a time, I ate 50 hardboiled eggs in one sitting.
I'm here to learn.
Pleasure to meet you all,
93... that's how you folks greet eachother, right?
-CPR