@Jim Eshelman said
"
@dr. ski wampas said
"If you do not agree, then that is perfectly fine. I would just like to know if you have any objective evidence, or any real reason why anybody would believe you when you say that you have had a real spiritual experience, other than to take you at your word when you say that you have experienced it?"
Off-topic to this thread."
Does that mean I can start a thread just for discussing the question, and it won't be deleted?
@Al-Shariyf said
"I would assert that it actually does have some meaning for you. It has so much meaning for you that you, of your own free will and accord, take time out of your day to come onto this forum and consistently present your case against the existence of what you've built up in your mind as "God". "
I'm not presenting any case. And I am not about to. If you want to believe in what you believe in, then you will probably believe it without actively seeking out information that will eventually invalidate those beliefs. Instead you would probably engage in activities which reinforce those beliefs, and avoid things and conversations that challenge them. That is ok if it works for you, but do not erroneously attribute the same sort of zealousness to a person who does not believe in anything in particular.
[Fair response allowed. The OT rant following is deleted. After giving much leeway, one more OT post and account will be deleted without further warning. - Admin]
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I can't tell someone what to believe. There is just no hard physical or scientific evidence. That is not so much my opinion, as it is the way things are.
I am not trying to be combative by stating the plain truth either. The evidence that you would say you have, is not subject to empirical testing. You would say that all I need to do to prove it to myself, is to have a similar experience. I am not asking how I can have my own similar experience. I have already had plenty of my own. What I am saying, is that there is no objective evidence that any of our mystical experiences amounts to any more than fantasy. There is nothing wrong with indulging in fantasy from time to time.
If you do not agree, then that is perfectly fine. I would just like to know if you have any objective evidence, or any real reason why anybody would believe you when you say that you have had a real spiritual experience, other than to take you at your word when you say that you have experienced it?
It doesn't really have any special meaning to me. And TBH it never really has, not even when I was exploring the idea of magic and spirituality, or psi or whatever you want to call it.
Whenever used in a conversation, I just assume that the other person means some variation of any one of the dictionary definitions.
@zeph said
"Nobody proves God to you, but you can prove it to yourself if you're willing to undertake the necessary training and practices to make it so. Scientific illuminism, in a nutshell."
You can sure convince yourself, but this is not proof of anything. Plenty of people the world over have already convinced themselves a god exists, without scientific illuminism.
"one wouldn't expect a shoe maker to comprehend stellar dynamics"
Just like I don't expect a lawyer to be able to comprehend physics. Nor to be able to expound upon that particular topic to lay people.
"without the necessary use of specialized language –"
I find it to be convoluted language. If it's just a matter of words, then we can easily understand that what people in the past once understood as god, is not actually a magical and capricious being who lives in the sky somewhere. If we are not actually referring to a deity then I don't really see a need to keep using the word as people once did, to refer to things we are as yet ignorant of (like what happened before the big bang, what is consciousness, etc.), or in the way that pantheists use it (i.e. everything is god).
" but when it comes to metaphysics people expect all the answers to everything right now in terms they understand. Blame the exoteric religions, perhaps, for discouraging independent consideration of the Divine.)"
Metaphysics has had thousands of years to bear fruit. Religions don't build rockets, and computers. Medical science has it beat when it comes to health care.
Some exoteric religions do promote a consideration of the divine. Buddhism for example. But I'm not sure what that had to do with the conversation.
"You want proof that there are seeds within an orange, but unless you're willing to peel the thing and dig through the pulp you're just going to see an orange ball, and apparently in your case rail against those who have gotten their fingers sticky."
Do you really think that skeptical people, and people with an atheistic leaning, don't ever expose themselves to a variety of strange experiences? You would be exceedingly narrow minded to assume that atheists don't do yoga, or meditate. Just because somebody doesn't share the same conclusion that you do about an experience, does not mean that it does not work for them, or that they have never had a strange experience.
The difference between us is that we draw different conclusions. At one time I might have drawn other conclusions, but eventually I started to wonder if maybe it was even possible to see a ghost, or to cast a spell. Not according to the latest findings in physical sciences, no.
"You seem to be an astonishingly angry man. I'm sorry."
You seem to think you can judge the character of a person based on a few paragraphs typed in haste. Or is this an attempt at remote viewing? 
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"
Drug addict, certainly. Con artist? I'd like to see some evidence. Certainly a scientifically-minded individual such as yourself has evidence to support these "beliefs" that you hold, no?"
Did he or did he not solicit money from people who were convinced he was a prophet of some sort? I am quite sure he did. Since no evidence exists that he was a prophet and since his writings fail to conclusively prove once and for all that consciousness exists without a body ( as he claimed they do) I think most people can probably be their own judge.
"
None of this matters. Stop relying on "belief". Trust in experience."
You operate based on belief too. Specifically you believe your experiences can prove to you things which most sane people would reject.
"
Citation, please?"
Actually the burden of proof falls generally on the e making a claim. Cite me whatever scientific study you can to corroborate Crowley.
" Why are you so hung up on it? What's going on in your life, Ski, that makes you so afraid of (and thereby ruled by) belief?"
Actually I am doing quite nicely. I can't imagine what you think I am hung up on. How can one be afraid of belief? My life operates on the basis of many beliefs. What is different between us is what informs our beliefs.
"
Only one way to find out."
Yes, by educating yourself and asking what good evidence there is that spirits exist in the first place.
"
This tells me quite a bit about you, Ski, not so much about the topic at hand so we'll just let it pass without further comment."
All it should tell you about me is that I don't believe crowley's claim to be a prophet.
"
He became exactly what he wanted. How many stock brokers, real estate agents, mountain climbers, writers, painters, or poets can actually say that at the end of their life?"
I don't know, how many have you talked with? Are you saying there is shame in making an honest living?
"
Again, lots of judgement, very little evidence. As someone who has rifled through quite a bit of the evidence, this tells me a lot about the way you, Ski, judge other people and very little about the topic at hand. I'm glad it's very unlikely we'll never meet because you're outlook on the way others *should *run their lives seems downright "horrid", as it were."
Yes I am judging his bad ideas t be garbage.whether it was racist and sexist swill, or he was making the claim that sperm has magical properties and can grant healing powers to those who eat it. That was one of his notoriously silly ideas.
No doubt. But who honestly believes that eating pussy can bestow magical powers, or grant wishes? Unless I am mistaken that is wharvcrwley thought. I don't mind what peoe a into, but call it what it is. A kink, a fetish. Certainly There is no evidence it makes you enlightened or grants super natural powers to one.
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"
You've "typed" me based on internet posts and are now allowing that assumption to cloud your vision. You have no idea who I am and making assumptions about it does you no favors. Interact with my words on the page rather than this goblin you manifested in your mind and you'll have much better luck at understanding what I write."
Pot calling the kettle black, eh? I recall our last encounter, Yu thought you had me pegged pretty good. I still see that you think you do.
"
What the hell does this have to do with ANYTHING related to this "
Let that knowledge assist you in judging my sanity. Although of you do believe in ghosts perhaps you are not the best to judge who is or isn't crazy.
@mark0987 said
"Yes, people just believe he is the guy from sgt pepper's cover. That was way before my time. Many people take drugs, so what? Are you trying to make it sound like he was a bad guy- if so, do so for actual bad reasons, not just what he did behind closed doors."
There are plenty of actual good reasons. He was an abusive spouse, and lover. A horrible father, a cheat and swindle and a pompous self indulgent ass. I don't judge him for the drugs, I judge him for all the horrible things he did and said. I just understand drugs play a role in that. I used to love them when I was young, but I wouldn't trust someone I knew was on a hallucinogen to report to me accurately about a non augmented reality.
"
Does sex magick work? Try it and find out for yourself. You might even have some fun whilst doing it, and perhaps release some irritation- which it sounds like you need to."
Been there done that. Boring.
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"
@dr. ski wampas said
"You have no interest in a view point which does not somehow prop up your own. You are a hypocrite."
You do realize that this applies equally well to you, right? With the emendation that you have put exactly zero effort into creating an internet forum at which to specifically discuss the topics of reality that interest you, whereas Temple of Thelema has."
Well if that we're true I wouldn't be here. When was the last time you actively sought out and engaged with a point of view contrary to your own?tyou seem like the type who is resentful of someone who disagrees with you fundamentally, and I can guess you are here because people here prop up and echo your own views.
This place was not created for open discussion, any such open discussion is discouraged and censored. This place is a recruitment tool for a... Well you know, that word that people usually use to describe Mormonism and Scientology, and heaven's gate?
"What you seem so hellbent on not understanding (self-delusion in full force) is that this website, heruraha.net, is the foyer of Temple of Thelema, open to all but still owned and operated by Temple of Thelema. What you are currently doing is akin to walking into the front lobby of Google and berating every other guest, receptionist, security guard, and gift-shop attendant because they won't immediately switch to Bing. Regardless of the merits of your position, you are in the lobby of Google disrupting the peace in a way specifically antagonistic to your host and the rules of conduct posted at the front door. If you are unwilling to take the warning, there is absolutely no reason I can think of why security shouldn't remove you from the premises. Can you? If you want to continue on you Bing-crusade, you have an entire free internet on which to do it. Continuing to attempt it on the Google campus to Google employees in hopes of, I don't know... converting them to your unsupported position? That pretty much fits the definition of insanity to a T."
This is a forum, not a lobby or a foyer, but an Internet forum, with open registration. (Are you sure you are not the delusional one? You seem to not be able to tell the difference between those words you used to describe this place.) Google hosts forums too and trust me, people do tell them how they feel about them. I the they are open to that because they want to make their product better.
You are casting stones from a glass house. Get back to me about sanity when you understand reality. I don't believe in ghosts I will tell you that. Perhaps I'm not so much insane as I am bored. But I can see it is insane to think discussion is possible with you people.
Really? I can find hardly anybody who really knows who he is (besides the freaks who worship him.). It's only after lengthy explanation that someone will usually go "ohhhh... that guy?? Well wasn't he a crazy drug addict?" and that is even if they know who I am talking about at all. As far as I can tell he is internationally recognized as 'that guy on the sgt. pepper's cover".
And who would be afraid to eat shit? It just doesn't sound all that pleasant of a thing to do, now does it? Certainly not very appetizing. Contrary to your statement I would just add that it doesn't sound so much like a tool, but rather like something someone might d when they are desperate nd can think of no other we to their goals.
Just what is sex magic? What is it used for, what are its practical applications? Sounds like you are trying to pull a rabbit from your girlfriends twat.
Can we accomplish our goals without it? Crowley once did sex magic to try and get 10,000 dollars. It never materialized. Well I've made 10s of thousands in my lifetime and I never had to eat shit, or menstrual blood like he did. Look how well that worked out for him. Better keep your day job.
You have no interest in a view point which does not somehow prop up your own. You are a hypocrite. For someone who says he that he disapproves of limiting another ones scope, or point of view, I do say we have found one point of view which you think should be silenced, and censored. A point of view for which you have no tolerance. Good thing you are not in charge of moderating the real world, because we all know what a fascist does when they are in charge of more than a tiny group of people. Lucky for us you are not but the king of a tiny hill of ants.
Well you can ban us, censor us, etc. but until this ceases to be a public forum with open registration more will come. Eventually some other atheist will see the golden trolling opportunity. It's too easy with you people. Why don't you cast a spell of protection to keep us out, if you are so confident in your magical abilities? Yu would never have to ban anyone. But I think you know it's bullshit so you use your mouse and keyboard for this task. That's not very metaphysical or magical if you ask me.
AllMyWill,
Most of the people on this website do believe that Crowley is a prophet from what I can tell, so you might be in the wrong place. I believe the guy was a drug addict, and a con artist.
It all comes down to what you believe. Do you believe that angels interfere in the lives of men, and dictate magic books? That spirits float around in some etheric dimension talking to chubby wizards high on mescaline, and coke, and heroin (and eventually ether later on)? Do you think that Aleister Crowley really received some magical all important message from an angel, while he was high on drugs in the desert of egypt or not?
You have to ask yourself if you really believe it's possible. But you also have to be willing to look at the evidence that Crowley was not a prophet (and there is lots of it). You must decide whether it matters to you or not. If you want to believe he was a prophet, then you will. Do you need it to be true bad enough that you are willing to believe it?
Do spirits and magic spells exist, or are these all just delusions in the mind of a drug addict, and abused child?
Did he say, and write some cool stuff? Yes. But since Crowley died we have learned a lot, and even greater thinkers have come along. Was he a good writer? Meh, he was an "ok" writer. A lot of what he said is pure garbage.
He was just "ok" at painting, and writing. I don't think he played any musical instruments. He never started a successful enterprise, or made millions in the stock market. He could have. He squandered all. He could have been anything he wanted. But he was too high to focus on any one of those things, and so he was only just "ok" at writing, and painting, and poetry, and mountain climbing.
He had a lot of bad ideas. He spent more time in a drunken haze, and on drugs than anything else. He was physically and emotionally abusive to his lovers. He was an absolutely horrid father to his children. He was a swindler, a cheat who could not pay creditors.
Love him, hate him, take him or leave him.
Do I think he was a prophet? No. He is an interesting historical figure, that's about it. He represents why religious indoctrination is terrible for a child. His father forced religion on him. He was the byproduct of absentee parenting in the victorian era.
An enigmatic man child. A tortured soul, but no prophet. Just what is a prophet anyways? That supposes all sorts of questions which you will not find answered here. You will be discouraged from having that conversation. You might find this post is edited or censored so I hope you read it quickly. Either some pimply basement dwelling troll is about to start a flame war for declaring that Crowley is less than divine, or Jim is going to delete the comment entirely (he has before).
If you want to discuss the question of whether Crowley was a prophet or not, you are in the wrong place. These guys all believe he was. In fact, they think they are talking to the same invisible friends that Crowley was, and that he's hanging out in the afterlife giving everyone permission to use his writings and legacy however they please.
I think it's a joke. I often come and read here for my own bemusement. It gives me perspective to know I'm not as crazy as others, but I am also profoundly sad to read comments of people who genuinely believe they have powers, or a Casper the friendly ghost living with them.
AllMyWill, in case you didn't notice this is a forum exclusively for people who think that Crowley was a prophet…. of AIWASS, whatever the hell that means.
Isn't there anyone else here who is familiar with Theoretical physicist, and cosmologist Lawrence Krauss? Guess not....
Great article. Short read too.
I read this article today and it has made me think a lot. It can describe my thoughts lately pretty well. I have also been reading his book a universe from nothing. Anyone else a fan of Krauss?
i keep mostly to myself and cant help but feel a little deprived of some kind of information thats out there... it would be nice to encounter a group of people who could atleast hold intelligent conversation.
there are lots of forrums like this, but i dont spend a huge amount of time in them because it always seems like there is some "social" hierarchy in place and alot of the people develope these self glorifying images of themselves and bash others or their opinions and i dont care to spend the time to become established in those "communnities".
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@Kingsolomon said
"I always wanted to know, what could truly happen if you did a ritual using psychedelics"
I always bring ritual to my psychedelics.
I never bring psychedelics to my ritual."
this is the best thing i think anyone has added to the conversation thus far...
to the person who said they had the opposite affect intended by the pentagram ritual, i think that might have something to do with something about you, that goes beyond the external and manifest from whatever you have going on internally, so to speak. i have had wonderful results in doing this before a trip.
i take many psychedelic substances on a myriad of what i feel are meaningful occasions and as a seasoned tripper for many years now have learned the value of finding the right place and time... i'm a musician and the total ecstacy and flow of mind that comes from being able to mix the two is something that keeps me coming back. for me everything i do always comes back to my art, and all the philosophy involved even with every aspect of any topic discussed in places like this, are related and thrown back into my art, and that includes magick.
there are periods where for a whole month or more me and my band will trip on the weekends and converge in our practice space to manifest our minds in what we've come to see as a microcosm of creation. sometimes we use no drugs at all and are incorperating other types of phiosophy into what we do, and thats where magick comes in. this is how i try to find and manifest my will. for me being made in the image of god is about uniting those devided parts of my mind into a whole where the product is creation... i've sort of set up my whole practice around this.
i've had some pretty humbling and seemingly enlightened expirences from a wide relationship to an array of drugs, as well as battled with the worst of substance abuses. everything i've expirienced from intense heroin addiction, to the quiting of smoking cigarettes (which i too, did over night), has given me a piece of the puzzle and a foundation of expirience on which to build and find myself.
to speak about the drug comment... i think that nothing that happens is not meant to happen, and while alot of horrible consequences can come from elicit drug use (and abuse), you deffinately learn alot about yourself and how things work along the way... if you cant change and it does kill you, i belive you will have the oppurtunity to return until you can not make those mistakes ...but if your someone who for some reason or another have already figured out that you've been given infinite oppurtunities to correct those parts of you, and that the longer you spend doing it, the more you are hurting the overall progress of everything, than that expirience has served as a valuable life lesson hopefully having pointed you on the right path... whether you are overcoming addiction, or just trying to break out of an endless cycle of reincarnation.
a similiar example would be someone who goes to the mall to off a bunch of people... he spends the rest of his life in jail, and eventually finds jesus, winning his salvation... sure many people have died and the lives of those involved are absolutely ruined, but the criminal will have been able to face god with a clear consciouse and so that was gods plan all along right? everyone would have died anyway and we feel it's so awful because of the conditioning of our minds thats taken place to sensitize us to certain subjects we see on the news or other media... in reality everyone involved will have been given the oppurtunity to live up to whatever devine principal guided their fate and they will be judged accordingly.
i'm dont sympathise or agree with people becoming disgruntled and shooting other people, but the whole sense of apathy of knowing that the universe is a force working on impersonal principles, and not becoming wrapped up in the result of any one event, is what is implied by the line "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
for me it's like the hindu principle of dharma... what you expirience in your lifetime is the result of what you were going to or already have expirienced (karma) and so the only way to break out of that cycle, is to do what it takes to expirience and face it... whether you were or are going to be a drug addict, a murderer, or a magician.