College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

@Jim Eshelman said

"First, thanks for the compliments! Glad you liked the book so much.

@ldtab said

"I always thought of it as, in invocation we're brining the Divine within and in evocation we're taking something darker and bringout it outside of us."

Not necessarily dark, though. There are bright spirits that can be evoked as well.

"I'm curious where you'd place the Enochian aspect of Magick."

Enochian is based on hierarchies of names, just like the Hebrew system. Some of the names are Atziluthic, some (e.g., the Seniors) are Briatic, and many are Yetziratic.

"Would you (or the currents of the GD or Thelema) ascribe it to evocation or invocation?"

It depends on what you are contacting. You invoke what is at a higher vibration plane than you are, which usually means Atziluthic and Briatic forces. You evoke what is at a lower vibration plane than you are, which is most of Yetzirah.

"It almost seems like an invocation of the ritual (like opening by watchtower... or in Dee's day, inflaming oneself in prayer, ... or by some modernists, reading key's 1 and 2, then calling the hierarchy to an Enochian 'angel' such as CZONS.)"

The 1st and 2nd Calls are specifically ascribed to Spirit."

Thanks very much!

@JPF said

"
"That is, whatever the potential (and actuality!) of these symbols and ideas in the beginning, it seems to me that their worship now, today, 2,000 years later is black magick. "

Having grown up in a strict Fundamanetalist family, I can attest to this fact. Christianity today has progressed far from the "love thy neighbor" ideal espoused by Jesus and his disciples. The majority of Christians are bound to their "faith" by fear and convention.

"Does this change how any of you see Xianity? You see, I believe to destroy Xianity we must do so from the inside and that will take a radical new interpretation that chops at the knees of the current establishment, paving the way for something more suitable."

I'm not sure any "radical new interpretation" will be sufficient to destroy Christianity. Most Christians, when approached with an intitiated interpretation of the Gospel, respond with the same fear and convention that drove them to a literal interpretation in the first place."

There's a lot of talk in Thelemic circles of "destroying" Christianity or "fighting it." A lot of feelings of Thelemites are very antagonistic to Christianity. I get the vibe... I was raised by a minister.... and my family has had a hard time embracing my own spiritual life as a Buddhist, then pagan, then Scientologist, then finally a Thelemite... in fact they dont know the last 3. Last they heard I was a Buddhist.

But all this talk of "destroying" or "fighting" Christianity... i think is misplaced.

I'm thinking of Liber LXV and I'm going to quote a bit of Chapter II:
Behold! the Abyss of the Great Deep. Therein is a mighty dolphin, lashing his sides with the force of the waves.
There is also an harper of gold, playing infinite tunes.
Then the dolphin delighted therein, and put off his body, and became a bird.
The harper also laid aside his harp, and played infinite tunes upon the Pan-pipe.
Then the bird desired exceedingly this bliss, and laying down its wings became a faun of the forest.
The harper also laid down his Pan-pipe, and with the human voice sang his infinite tunes.
Then the faun was enraptured, and followed far; at last the harper was silent, and the faun became Pan in the midst of the primal forest of Eternity.
Thou canst not charm the dolphin with silence, O my prophet!

To me, and frankly I am aware I'm a dolt, but to me it's telling that to get the dolphin to become pan, you don't start off with the last phase... silence. Rather you start off with something the dolphin likes... then the dolphin changes... and you give it a taste of something the bird likes... and so on, till you reach the end result.

In other words - it sounds like to me, if you want to change Christianity or "end it" you would actually start with talking to said membership in a way they understand and respect and like.

What I see a lot of online in various forums around, is this: "Yo! Christians in this forum are stupid. their god never existed. Jesus was a myth! ha!" It's as bad as the Christian going into a Hindu forum shouting how they can only be saved by the grace of Jesus.

Why not start with talking to the Christian with the proverbial harp... and then progress from there? Why fight it to the last state of silence? You'll never get there.

just my two cents.

@Jim Eshelman said

"
@Foolster said
"I don't see thelema proper catching on, ever. It's too "dungeons and dragons" for the typical laymen.  Also It comes across as anti-thetical to the message or major religions so it only appeals to the few who can dig deep and see the golden path Liber AL is advocating."

It's only D&D because of some elements of its contemporary culture. That, of course, would have to change, i.e., a different element of Thelemic culture (currently more quiet) needs to be its mainstream face.

And it is the very fact that it is antithetical to the message of historic major religions is the whole point. It represents a quantum leap in social perspective. That quantum leap is the important issue in the long run, not its religious forms.

I do think, though, that the mainstreaming of Thelema into human society over the next few centuries will not necessarily include any mention of either Aleister Crowley or The Book of the Law. It is the underlying ideas that are inseminating mass consciousness. For decades, they've been emerging with increasing prominence, and are active elements of the cultural wars currently occurring (both the quiet ones and the noisy ones).

"I was speaking of creating something more tangential and dresses itself in the guise of Islam, Judaism and xianity, while being more explicit in the precepts laid out in AL, armed with the fire of gnosis."

I have said for decades that if Christianity caught on to the archetypal change and placed the emphasis primarily on the Christ Child as the path of new promise, they could buy an extra few centuries for themselves as the dominant paradigm."

I want to thank the original poster for starting this talk. A lot of my own concerns and frustrations that I was worried to address to a Thelemic crowd were brought up. I'm a relatively new Thelemite. I've followed the GD systems of magick prior, and have been a member of a variety of religions. I only mention that to give a bit of background and where i'm coming from.

I'll be honest, I feel like I think Foolster is saying (Forgive me if I misrepresent), that Thelema (as he put it) is too "Dungeons and Dragons" but as I would say - it's fringe. I consider myself a Thelemite, but I'm comfortable with being Fringe. I'm pretty "average" except when it comes to spirituality. But one thing I see time and time again, is pockets of Thelemites who want to express Thelema to the mass of humanity. To get more people interested in it... and I just can't see how that's possible. Foolster is hitting it on the head... even if all the rituals were done away... the robes removed... ritual tools and "wepaons" taken away... and we made it very conforming to where people are at today (I say this as I think few people today give any interest in the Egyptian Mythos)... even then you have to interpret everything. People will read The Book of the Law and fixate on some real bloody, agressive and harsh words and freak out. These same people are revolted by modern religion for it's same use of harshness in the Bible, Quran, etc.

Even if you get past all the ritual trappings, you have the Holy Books of Thelema that offer yet another "us vs. them" mentality - which is expressed in Thelema quite often (and very clearly in The Book of the Law, chapter III) Then if you can get someone past the Holy Books and help them understand them not on their face value but on some deeper meaning... you run into Crowley's own character. His love of offending and shocking people... throwing out casual comments of "child sacrifice" and whatnot to incite people. While he never meant real child sacrifice... it's enough to block most from going further... they'll just think "what nutters are these?" If you could get someone past that... then you have the common conception that Drugs, narcotics, and other taboo's are embraced in Thelema. Crowley advises Jane Wolfe (in her diaries) to try a bit of Cocain to help her concentrate.... Beyond that, we see Crowley advising some of his female students to take up prostitution at local cat houses in italy.

The very fact the prostitute, drugs, etc. are embraced - will turn off most of the rest of humanity. At the same time it will attract the criminal elements of society. While the term whore has some positive interpretation in a spiritualized sense in thelema, in the real sense it refers to a person living in fear... living with STD's... being abused... being treated violently... and not being a happy well adjusted person. Who here would say "I want my kid to grow up addicted to heroin and be a hooker." Probably none of us...

Get past all that... and you have the beauty of Thelema.

But how many people will do that? well out of the world's population... evidently about 4,000 people. that's us.

Someone here mentioned that Christianity had time to "cook" and Grow... and Thelema hasn't had enough time... I don't believe it. There have been countless religions that are less then 60 years old, who are over 10x larger then Thelema. I'll name one: Scientology. No matter one's views on it... it started well after Crowley took control of the OTO, and has 10x the membership body. There are new religions every day... and they grow fast. One thing they have in common is this:
No embrace of self destructive behavior (or so it will appear to the new converts)
Self Improvement is often bantered about
Love of others

Whether new religions succeed at those 3 points above isn't the point - what's the point is, that is what people are looking for. That's what I'm looking for. That's why I'm interested in Thelema... but I had to look over a lot of crap to get where I am. I sat in countless discussions with "normal" thelemites, to get over many of my fears. But I don't consider myself "normal" or a normal representation of humanity. The normal person wouldn't get past the Holy Books...

When I was a GD magickian, I used to be nervous about going to OTO events... why? because the OTO and other thelemic groups are one of the few spiritual groups around that have to stress in writing, "Please do not bring any illegal narcotics/drugs with you..." or "please refrain from getting high before the event." I mean, come on.... wtf. That's a clear sign of a problem. They might as well post, "Please... please, do not harm or otherwise maim guests at our events." that's how that comes across to an outsider who's not drug friendly.

You all are talking about the incerneration of the old aeon... i'm thinking we need to incinerate all the stuff that is keeping Thelema back - All that self destructive stuff - drug addiction for one.

I think the only real way to even consider an idea of growing the principals of Thelema globally is to call it something else, distance it from Crowley and yet teach it's core principals.

Sorry if what I wrote comes off as harsh, it's me trying to get my feelings out. I've felt this way for several years and this post seemed to address some of what I was thinking myself. To end this reply on a positive note... I've read the writings of Soror Meral... she's great. she's exactly what I would want to be like some day. Her views are calm... collected... and dare i say "normal." She's well grounded.

Maybe you're right James... I just can't see it. There's so much that has to change, ou might as well just start over and call it something new.

First, let me say I really like the book. It looks great, very professional.
Second, I was very happy to get it so fast. Perhaps due to the fact I live in southern california... but i had this the next day after it was shipped.
Third, the sample rituals are great... but more so the advice given. One principal that's raised in the book, is to consider what gain you get from failing... totally true. a lot of times a "sickness" is useful to achieve something. or "failing" an interview - to garner something. I really like that you raised that in the book. What really challenged me was your comment that we always have a reason to fail and we should confront that. Makes sense.

Anyway... in regards to the ritual on "The Art of Evocation," I had a question. This concept of Invocation vs. evocation is always something I struggled with understanding. I always thought of it as, in invocation we're brining the Divine within and in evocation we're taking something darker and bringout it outside of us. You say somethign similar ... you bring up an interesting aspect of the invocation and evocation reaching the same energy on a different level (if I understood you right.) Example on pg. 149 you said, "In brief, invocation and evocation are both techniques for attuning self-consciousness to a particular PRINCIPLE, acting on a particular PLANE. Whether Elohim Gibor is invoked or Bartzabal is evoked, the magician is attuning her self-conscious awareness to that common principle we call Mars; but in the former case, she is also raising her awareness to the higher vibrations of Atziluth (or as close therto as she is capable), whereas in the latter, she is actually isolating an aspect of the Yetziratic consciousness which is somewhat lower than that which is then typical of her own level of consciousness."

I'm curious where you'd place the Enochian aspect of Magick. Would you (or the currents of the GD or Thelema) ascribe it to evocation or invocation? Some GD authors such as Pat Zalewiski ascribe Enochian Entities to realms below Briah. Others like G. James place Evocation in the title of their work "The Enochian Evocation of Dr. John Dee." Yet they don't seem to make the clear distinction often seen in evocation - i.e. no drawn physical circle, no triangle of art to bind the entity with... So it seems like a grey area... an evocation without the clear distinctions of evocation. It almost seems like an invocation of the ritual (like opening by watchtower... or in Dee's day, inflaming oneself in prayer, ... or by some modernists, reading key's 1 and 2, then calling the hierarchy to an Enochian 'angel' such as CZONS.)

So I guess I'm asking - how do you see Enochian magick... as an invocation or evocation... and if the later, do you utilize a physical circle, triangle, etc? If not, why?

Thanks.

@Arsihsis said

"
@Blythe A. Blanche said
"I'm curious to the know everyone's opinion regarding the objetive reality or subjective illusions of gods, spirits, etc."

In An Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magick featured at the beginning of 666's publication of the Goetia he says:

"An Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magick*":1i483fav]The spirits of the Goetia are portions of the human brain. Their seals therefore represent[...]methods of stimulating or regulating those particular spots (through the eye). The names of God are vibrations calculated to establish:
(a) General control of the brain. (Establishment of functions relative to the subtle world.)
(b) Control over the brain in detail. (Rank or type of the Spirit.)
(c) Control of one special portion. (Name of the Spirit.)"

...and on a similar note:

"The Magical Record of the Beast*":1i483fav]Attainment 'is' Insanity. The whole point is to make it perfect in balance. (10:00pm 26 Dec. 1919)"

729"

However, that wasn't his view of Enochian Entities... (i.e. not aspects of the mind.)

@Aum418 said

"
They are subjective 'entities,' and externalized parts of oneself. There are no such thing as external, objective demons or angels just like there are no djinns and no Zeus and no Vishnu and no Loki and no Cherubim... they are metaphors, at best.

IAO131"

Totally disagree. at best it's both. But external beings - definately in at least many cases.

when you actually get a result of something manifesting so that it casts it's own shadow in your room, moves before your eyes and can be witnessed by another - it's no longer a "subjective aspect of one's self."

Sadly, one of my greatest frustrations with Crowley is his definition of magick as simply "change in conformity with will" -
That would ascribe magick to making a ham sandwhich. It's far greater then psychological blinks of ideas. or changes in personality. While that can be empowering... magick can also heal another outside of your "self", enrich, and make physical transformations. While that may not be the greatest use of Magick - it is certainly possible. But when it's psychologized down, it's just NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programing.)

I agree it's in the mind, if we're saying that all matter, people, beings are of the mind. in some sense yes. But in the sense we are talking about, I think it's both. In some cases it can be subjective mental conditions, but in many cases it is external entities as unique as you or I.

so I ascribe to the answer: BOTH.

@jg93 said

"Does anyone have info on these folks?

www.esotericgoldendawn.com

There seems to be only a single OTO body within 100 miles of me (Wash, DC), so I'm desperately searching for a deep, meaningful (re)initiation onto 'the path.' I'm open to suggestions, thanks for the help.

Jeff"

I can help out with info on EOGD (essoteric order of the Golden Dawn formerly known as HOMSI - Hermetic Order of the Morning Star.)

I was once a member in their mother temple in Southern California. I went up through the grades to Theoricus and left at that point. I'll try to keep my post on point and practical... less emotional as it were.

To start with, if you're a Thelemite or interested in Thelema... you'd prob want to look elsewhere, then EOGD. Some Golden Dawn orders are open to you practicing Thelema on your own outside their system - EOGD is NOT one of these orders. I was clearly told by various "adepts" at EOGD not to own any work of Crowley's (unless co-published by Mathers) and I've seen said Adepts also instruct people to destroy or burn their Thoth Decks they owned.

I think a lot of the hostility towards Thelema came from a key Adept there who evidently had a bad experience with a Thelemic order in his youth... What he told me scared me off Thelema for quite some time... but in looking at it rationally I came to find out, his views on Thelema were very colored and mostly wrong. He believed "Do what Thou Wilt" was a license to do whatever you want, and clearly that idea should have been made more clear in reading Crowley's opinion on the matter.

EOGD does perform astral initations. When I served as an officer there, it worked like this: a physical initation is performed, and during that time, they believe the astral image of the candidate not present is also with the ones that are physically present. It seemed logical at the time, but in the end, I later felt it was a good way to get membership up and that was about all.

If you check their own forum on Yahoo Groups (it's linked off their main website) - there's a lot of people posting that they paid their dues/membership fee's and maybe 3-6 months go by without any acknowledgement, nor are any materials sent to them. This was the case when I was a member many years ago, and perisists to this very day.

Lastly, just look up the Grand Imperator's name (He openly discloses his real name, so I'm not giving up any secret info here) Robert Zink. He has a personal website where he sells many CD's and programs. If you check it out that might be the best way to determine if that order is for you or not. Actually - that website appears to be down...

To be fair, when I did confront Robert Zink about the attitude against Thelema in EOGD - he claimed at that time he "had no problems with Thelemites" yet when I was a member, it was EOGD Policy that "No Thelemite could be a member of the EOGD" for fear of polluting the current. perhaps polluting is a strong word, but given the angst I saw against Thelemites there, I think it's a fitting description of how I saw their feelings.

EOGD also gets involved in a lot of 'turf wars' with David Griffin and vice versa.

They do have some great magicians in their order. I've met some amazing people thre, despite the problems. This could perhaps be said of anything. A great magician might show up in the oddest of places.

Other Orders:
The order I dont think was mentioned yet, is the Golden Dawn order run by Pat Zalewiski. Pat is a published author, so you can typically find his books in a variety of bookstores, to get an idea for their take on things. While I disagree with Pat in various things, I think (granted I've not been a member, but friends of mine in his order who left others - like Zink's) say that Pat's order is pretty level headed.

another order coming up is R.O.G.D. - I recently contacted them... rogd.org... they openly respect Aliester Crowley (and have Magick Book 4 listed in their recomended reading list). Their website rogd.org doesn't have a lot of info but they do reply to emails in a timely fashion... they also let you taste their teachings without spending any money. They make use of the magickal journal and daily adorations/salutations.... From what I gather, I think they are loosely affiliated with Pat Zalewiski - but I can't be certain. I do like their recomended reading list. They have some great authors in there.

@jg93 said

"Is there a 'mail-order' program similar to the BOTA curriculum? Is it possible to compare/contrast the two? I've pretty much given up on finding anything locally - which is sad considering I live in Washington DC...

Thanks -

Jeff"

I was wondering the same thing... such as, what distingusihes BOTA from FLO... they seem to have similar concepts described on their websites.

@Persephone said

"93, This is an area that isn't written or talked about much, probably because it is entirely personal. I have known some Thelemites who do not believe in reincarnation, my questions are directed to those who do.
Has anyone found that by examining their past lives they have solved a deep-seated problem and then were able to move on in their magical Work much easier? Has anyone hit a dead end and not been able to resolve something that you believe to be karmic?
I don't expect you to write about very personal issues, but in general, does this ring a bell with anyone? For myself, I can say that it took years to solve something, and it was a very profound experience when I did, although some parts were not pleasant. Also I found that it helped very much to have at least one person who will listen objectively and be supportive.
In the last few months I have been reading Dion Fortune, which I mentioned in other posts. I find that she has a lot of good information on these issues, both in her novels and some of her non-fiction books.
93 93/93 Persephone"

I'm not sure if my response falls into your category, but I had some issues of bodily pain resole when I dealt with some past life situations... by that I mean, relived past life events (whether real or imaginary) and saw the source of some bodily pain, and handled the original situation... the specific pain in my current body ceased.

Personally I believe that past lives are very important to handle. I have a personal idea that some garbage that is currently with me is from the past - believing in karma that crosses lifetimes.

@RifRaf said

"I was writing a small piece on this practice and wanted some input before finishing up. Also, I don't think to many people have gone into enough detail concerning the actual practice (except Regardie) and there are still a lot of unanswered questions floating around about this important practice.

How long do you stay, or how long should one stay in the assumed form? I understand that staying in the position until the aspirant "connects" with the God is the desired outcome, and however long this takes should be the perscribed amount of time. However, in section III of "Liber O" we are told to practice assuming Godforms ("This book is very easy to misunderstand...") and usually the beginning student probably isn't going to have a good enough imagination nor will they be fully "equipted" to be taking on elaborate and enduring Invocations in order to bring their consciousness to that needed level while standing there in the form.

How do you unify your body with that of the Gods, i.e. do you step into the form? Do you watch it grow from the heart until it surrounds you? Do you make a mask, or a full body? I've heard of a few different methods and would like to see how others do it."

For me it depends on the opperation. When I was in a GD order, I functioned as an "officer" of the order. In that case the assumption of the Godform was a lot more work. What I did was a) achieve a meditative state b) perform the Middle Pillar ritual - repeating the divine names in each center in number, to the letters of the godform I want to use c.1) create an astral shell of the Godform (utilizing the energy build up from the Middle Pillar ritual) c.2) shape the astral form as though molding clay... c.3) kept the eyes hollow (like a mask or an empty shell) d) step into the form with the sign of the enterer and seal it with the sign of silence. e) try to see your self and the environment wtih the senses of the form. also sometimes a square tile was used in flashing colors, with the God's name written in Coptic on the underside

I had various levels of success with that method... the peak of which was when the Hierophant of the order that I was in, performed a ritual to seal the godform. it felt like shrinkwrap snapping to my skin.

The above takes a long time.

If you're talking about the Adorations of Liber CC... Personally I don't do the above. It would take so much time. I inhale the name, and imagine it filling up my lungs (the name), while trying to visualize the form of the God... and on exhale stating the name of the god... that's it.

It's a different experience.