@Jim Eshelman said
"(It could as well have said, "professional teachers who won't teach.")"
I´ve known many of them, they are indeed “teachers” because the only people they like for company are mediocrities who “pay” them with their adhesion for to maintain their status. Of course they are greedy, and tend to the exclusiveness. But they are mundane and finally left behind.
Also they are those who will not “fight like brothers”; that is, those petty enough who will make a distinction between the space marks, somehow. Happy Nuit day, btw.
The feeling of otherness was strongly based on the fact that the seeds of thought were emerging from that point like if an invisible hand were disposing them or ordering them or something similar, like if were an intentionality behind. Usually I have difficulty with Dhyana/Samadhi distinction and terminology but definitely it seems much more related to what you describe here as Dhyana. But it was the very threshold, I suppose that if I would had managed to stay unattached to that sensation of otherness, probably I would remain there and ultimately go to the source and melt with “that” in a sort of Samadhi, or at least that´s what seems more plausible.
But ultimately the experience by it´s own simply had help me to grasp a better comprehension of the system and of a lot of concepts, by which ultimately I made a description of the universe in the Pantacle design of the Neophyte grade. Also near after that experience I knew somebody who awakened the “Nephesh demon” in me pushing me out of work, which correspond also to that grade, and apart other similar things related to that grade that as a whole have convinced me that the system serves well and with pretty accuracy as a coordinate system on which situate your own process of initiation, something of what I was not so aware previously, definitely. End with that, sorry for the extension but I think it needed a little context.
So to clarify, having that I explained myself awfully and my poor english didn´t help: by my “abstract experience” I was referring to that, to the absence of images and thought forms, etc. Also, forget about that poem...
Briefly, the so called “vision” happened following an intense period of Yoga practices including meditation simply “killing the mind” or des-identifying me with it (some sort of Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna in fact), and fixing upon a point in my mind I came to identify by practice with Adonai or the Angel, etc. One day, simply for no apparent reason, I came much further than the habitual and found more “nothingness” of mind; then I “felt” some kind of “presence” in the exact point where the seeds of thought were emerging (I have compared it to the stretching of the neck of a bottle, to the extreme point), like if that presence were ordering them or I don´t know. Then came the notion of that and the weird feeling of ”otherness” just made me awake from that point and the thing stopped. It was in fact very quick.
Now to clarify, by then I was no newbie to meditation to not know the difference between “think that you are not thinking”, and actually doing it. After the experience I came to think of it as Briah by that lack of thought forms, and to the “Visión of Adonai” by that “otherness”, and well, came to think that the K&C must imply in some way to “penetrate” that point and go further, making an actual “Knowledge and Conversation” with that “other” thing. Also, as I said in previous posts, I came to read experiences of other people and, despite the fact that theirs generally imply mental visions, or that came by audition, of in some sort of scene, I was able to recognize the same elements of mine, of which that “otherness” was probably the principal.
After that I have had a few related experiencies but not exactly like that, so that´s all basically. Please move this part of the thread if it´s better placed in other thread or something.
Yeah that´s why I think it had some part of Briah in it, because there was nothing of that in it. I made a little poem explaining it in some way, but I´d have to translate it.
I don´t know, Gunther´s description of it as a sort of non-direct experience (more of a process) also doesn´t fit with that in particular. But on the other hand I´ve read descriptions of the Visions of other people and more commonly I have been able to recognize them as the same thing as mine, despite it´s more common widely difference regarding type (some visuals, some auditive, some in some sort of scene thing; mine was purely abstract).
Thanks for clarification. You are right, I´m usually of the cerebral type, though I try my learning to be of an organic type, basing my comprehension of esoteric concepts and of the system on the few experiencies I´ve had with Briah, (the most important, probably a direct “Vision of the Angel” a year ago in a purely abstract way, meditating). Even the concepts beyond the Abyss I try to figure them by my little comprehension of Briah... I mean I try to adjust it to the real thing, despite my more usual derives and mistakes.
Forget that of the "deaths", silly question. Returning to topic, I´ll try to re-formulate it again after what has been said (thanks guys it´s really helpful): So having that this practice is based on avoiding identification with the contents of the mind (thus going forward to a subtler or upper plane), it could be done by anyone no matter it´s grade, so a Philosophus will do it trascending Yetzirah in the same way an Adeptus Exemptus will do it trascending Briah or an Ipsissimus even trascending Atziluth (taking the last grade of each Order by it´s character of frontier with the next). That is, each person will do it according to the subtlety of their spiritual perception and their deeper penetration through the mind... Does that sounds correct?
Understood. I don´t really attach it to Nun in that way, the thing is that I was wondering recently about the distinction between those "deaths" (as their come described by Crowley) and this remembered me that.
Ops... But in this case that could be related to Nun again? I remember the words of Crowley about his Ipsissimus initiation putting it as some sort of "death" (in his "Confessions" I think), similarly as it´s commonly said about the Abyss crossing. What could be said it´s the difference between those two kinds of "deaths", btw?
Great, I was thinking that the Path of Nun attribution of this practice could be a big point for it´s other attribution to the Abyss crossing/Path of Cheth. That leads me to get that 10=1 application of this practice to the Neophyte by it´s "Osirian thing" and Path of Tau, I suppose.
I edited my last messages correcting the attribution to the grades: I said Practicus, being Philosophus.
@gurugeorge said
"
I wouldn't worry about the Abyss. Just think of it as a next step thing. Note that the Buddha said that Mahasatipatthana was a practice capable of taking you "all the way" (so to speak), and IIRC AC endorses that in the essay on marijuana, where he talks about the "levels" of the practice. So it will have a "level" (of revelation, of success) appropriate to your level if you practice it. (In a way all the practices are Mahasatipatthana, or maybe you could say that Mahasatipatthana was the Buddha's version of a concise encapsulation of the essence of all the practices - obviously so since it applies to everything you do.)"
Well, it makes sense since after all that´s part of the work in the second triad of adapting the work done in the first triad to the "new mind" after K&C ,etc. But I think that, as an specific practice, the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna it´s better placed in a specific place in the whole system, and in that sense I´m inclined to think that is the Philosophus grade work, etc. Even more, in case that Gunther is making here some sort of symbolic use of this practice for explaining the Abyss thing in that context, I think it could be pretty confusing for the aspirant, who needs more concretion, at least in the practice aspects. Apart there´s those other things in his work that confuse me even more about his use or conception of the symbolism, like that of the LVX-NOX arrangement, things that makes me wonder in cases like the present what are he specifically refering to (despite the BIG reverence I have for his work).
I came today by the Holy Season meditations to Atu VII and remember that Gunther put the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna practice in this chapter of his book "The Angel & the Abyss". Now, I don´t know if he put it there "archetypically" or "simbollycally" or something (some other things in his work could possibly indicate that it´s not the case, but well), but despite that this practice could be apparently atributed to the Abyss (by the ego shutting), it´s not much better atributed to the shutting down of Yetzirah and the coming into Briah/Tiphareth K&C, as a practice specifically atributed to the Philosophus by Crowley and others (Jim among others in his "M&M system")?? Or there´s something I could be missing? Could this practice be somehow considered, too, for an upper level (the Abyss crossing)?
I´ll add two more threads related to this one:
This one, in which there´s a wide discussion about the physical distance thing: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11910">viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11910</a><!-- l -->
And this other with several testimonies which could be useful one way or another: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8804">viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8804</a><!-- l -->
...Sorry, I asked primarily because of your work with V&V, but had no idea about the psychological aspect of the book, I thought it was only astrological, discipline of which I have no big idea. Definitely I´ll grab one copy, thanks.
(I put this in "Initiation" because of the Magister Templi context, but if it´s better placed in other section please move it.)
93,
I always see plenty of cases in the Vision and the Voice of some sort of "neurological leaps", in that his brain parts seems to act clearly differentially, like in the "two voices" of the 25 Aethyr, where one voice is the language and the other the meaning of the speech, like in one of those strange Oliver Sacks books cases but in the context of a vision. Apart from that it would be great that a neurological pov paper would be made about this, I wonder if this is a particularity of this serie of visions, or it´s a common thing in other works by Crowley or others. Primarily because if it would be the case (these being a special particularity of this visions and not of anothers) and being his Magister Templi initiation, some sort of relation could be traced between both things (or not necessarily, I don´t know).
Great, thanks again Jim. I thought that maybe the Ceremonies and the like were only prescripted to permanent Temples.
I´ll add for the record that in the thread above, this same question of the Temples and locations for the initiations has been discussed almost at the same time, with more info: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14550&p=98879#p98879">viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14550&p=98879#p98879</a><!-- l -->
I see, thanks for clarification! For my part, I could definitely try. Please just one more thing if it´s possible (I hope I´m not being indiscrete or something): let´s put that one initiate that has reached at least Neophyte or higher, comes to live under this circumstances, in a country without any Temple of the Order. This person could then initiate other people, that is, arrange things for settle a Temple for the Ceremonies, a place for examinations, etc? Or they (tutor and student) must travel to one of the established Temples in other countries?
Please if someone could clarify if some sort of adjustment has been made in any occasion for such cases involving long distances (things like avoid purely formal encounters, examinations by videoconference, etc) it would be great.
Studied Liber 185 under this question I´ve found little thing that could carry absolutely necessary physical presence, IMO. Such things described there as the candidate "being received" by the tutor can pass as simple formalities, in the same way that of the "paying a Guinea" was something sort of symbolic that has been abolished (as I have understood). Same with the "reception" of the robe.
Also, Crowley makes it clear referring to these kind of things (in One Star in Sight) as having purely practical reasons and being flexibles to adaptation, so it´s not clear that these ones in particular could not be adapted when the circumstances requires it.
As for the examinations by videoconference, they are not a strange thing in the academic world today. Special measures for avoiding fraud could be easily made.
In the two first grades I´ve found nothing that could require necessary physical presence, even in examinations (The examination in Journeying on the Spirit Vision could go by videoconference without problem).
The Yoga examinations of the Zelator could more reasonably require direct presence because of some particularities (asana particularities and so on), though it´s not sure that they probably could not be made also by videoconference.
I don´t checked beyond Zelator because these three grades are already no small business.
That would leave the obligatory physical presence for the ceremonies of the Neophyte and Zelator initiations, and probably Zelator examinations in yoga though it´s not sure.
Just some idle thougths about this question, please don´t even take it as "suggestions", even less as a sort of complain. I don´t even know if some kind of similar arrangement is made or has been made for such kind of cases.
Fascinating, it seems to me that when you talk about "the life stream of the universe" (because of something I recall reading from you about Chiah) and "becoming one with The Word" you are referring somehow to Chokmah and the Magus grade? That method of reception has something to do with that? Also, do you remember in what part of Crowley Diaries I could found that? Thanks!