College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

Liber AL tells us compassion is a vice, but it is also a "vice of kings". Kings, by their very nature, do what they wilt, so why are we debating this issue? If you are a king and a star as Liber AL exhorts you to be, exercise your right to partake in any vice you choose. If part of your Will is to be compassionate, do so.

Hello Brother,

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Welcome! I hope you find some useful information and good company within these forums.

Love is the law, love under will.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"Wouldn't want to claim to be some kind of leader too early in the game...! Shyah! That would be like ...so freakin' lame... "

n00b! f34r my l337 skillz! I attack the darkness!

...I feel dirty.

"Go, Thou Prophet of Gor unto thy people...!
Proclaim unto them, oh Gorian Prince, thy message that they too may trip balls.
Proclaim that they too may have seizures in their temporal lobes...!
They are a hard and obstinate people, your people.
They will say, "But what profit? What profit if we too trip off our balls and see strange sights and experience the lightening in the brain? What benefit?"
To this, ye shall answer, "That ye may know it for FACT!"
Then shall the people in their obstinance say to you, "Know what for FACT...?"
To this shall ye say, "That all mystical experience involves the physical functioning of the brain on a chemical level."
And they shall say to thee, "No shit. This we know."

Or perhaps they shall say to thee the words of negation, "Nuh-uh...!"
And if this is so, you shall not fear. You shall not turn aside.
Thou shalt say, "Yuh-HUH..!" to them in thy Glorious Wrath..!
"Yuh-HUH..! Fools! Trip thine own balls and see...!"
And if they shall again say unto thee,
"Nuh-uh...! Thou art a druggy burnout, proclaiming thy folly from a fried and crispy mind...!"
Then shalt thou say to them, "Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"
Never cease in this denial...!
"Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"
Thou knowest the manner.
In this manner, continue forever, for no other proofs of thy attainment shall ever be required of thee,
except the volume and strength of this your denial...!
"Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...! Nuh-UH...!"

Until they weary of the Prophet of Gor and go their wicked way unto the beautiful and wanton avataresses of Second Life, who will talk dirty to them whilst they touch themselves."

Can I get a hallelujah! Yay verily and whatnot. I want to print this out and turn it to pamphlet form to distribute on the street corner in front of the local Mega Book Store like the rest of the weekend sidewalk prophets!

But that ain't my gig.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX (and mighty amusement),
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

@Frater_AVV said

"Nope. That was kinda the last thing I can think to say to Froclown before saying the following:

Good luck with your new Second Life A.'.A.'. Order in the online Community of Gor...! May many Gorians come to know the health, joy, beauty, patience, endurance, determination, and balance that you embody...!"

Gotcha.

In addition to the above, I'll throw in the following:

Godspeed.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"I have to say, your game does sound better than Froclowns."

Thank you... I think?

"PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:08 am Post subject:
Quote:
LIBER LXI VEL CAUSAE
A.·.A.·.

. . .

"4. Every man must overcome his own obstacles, expose his own illusions. Yet others may assist him to do both, and they may enable him altogether to avoid many of the false paths, leading no whither, which tempt the weary feet of the uninitiated pilgrim. They can further insure that he is duly tried and tested, for there are many who think themselves to be Masters who have not even begun to tread the Way of Service that leads thereto..."

Somewhere along the way, you're going to have to decide whether you want and/or need that kind of aid on this Journey or not.

But if you yourself refuse it from these people, you don't get to offer it in their name."

I'm not sure if this was directed toward me or not [...]

EDIT: Turns out not.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"If people can be members of the A.'.A.'. over the phone or through the mail, why is it absurd to use second life? (yes I am aware that occasionally initiations must be done in person) these probably can't be done in virtual space, not yet anyway.

But how hard is it to post your records online or hand them via note cards in SL, and then say ok you qualify for initiation, you need to come to this Address at this time, where you will be tested?"

Sigh. In addition to what Frater AVV so eloquently posted, I see it as absurd for a few reasons:

a) You are not a member of A.'.A.'.;

b) As a direct correlation to a) you are in no wise in a position to admit anyone into A.'.A.'.;

c) Second Life is, for all intents and purposes, a game!

Before you can lead anyone for any reason, you need to first temper your ego with a healthy dose of self-doubt. Allow me to demonstrate with a foray into the autobiographical.

I'm the Head of my own Order, as well as the President of a local community organization and the Praemonstrator of my Order's Outer College. I'm also an Assistant Manager in a research firm in my mundane life. In bed with the girlfriend (WARNING! PERSONAL INFORMATION!!), I take control. All of these are command positions, which led me to question why it is I seek out areas where I'm the boss, the one who people inevitably must answer to, the guy at the top of the food chain (or close enough to the top that I can see the top rung). I don't like being told what to do by anyone for any reason soever. Turns out I'm compensating for a few things here and there, leftover fiddly bits from my childhood, yada yada yada. I'm perfectly aware of this, and I've come to terms with it. This allows me to lead with purpose, without hindrance or restriction from my own personal demons. It allows me to forge a path that others are drawn to. I'm able to integrate the mystical into the mundane, or in other words, to not look like some kind of crazy person by screaming the truths that I've uncovered to anyone who happens to be within earshot. The point is, after examining myself, by "polishing the veils", I was able to let my Self shine through, and people are often caught up in the orbit of my Star.

But I need to remember to keep myself in check against falling victim to a self-aggrandizingly large ego. I recognize that the only power I really have in all of the positions I listed is that granted me by those whom I lead, and they have their own reasons for following me. It just so happens that their reasons coincide with mine. For now, anyway. When that time is over, I'll have earned some amount of rest before someone else gets swept up in the current, but I'll never allow this fact to pollute my purpose by putting myself up on a pedestal.

And I'm not done yet. Far from it! I have a long and arduous journey ahead of me still, but I will continue to forge my path, always remembering not to let the guideposts along the way cloud my vision with ideas of needless superiority.

Come thou forth and follow Me! ...if, ya know, you feel like it.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
V.H. Frater VM,
With Many A Title Associated to His Name (But Who's Counting?)

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"I assumed is NO ONE understands what I'm talking about I must be very advanced indeed."

Or you could be completely wrong.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

@Frater_AVV said

"
"Further, what is the point of doing that list of things you think is so important, many of the greatest thinkers, inventers, and progressive figures in history never married, were not concerned with mundane things like that. Di Vinci seldom slept and spent all his time working an his paintings and contraptions, Edison almost never left his lab, Einstein was always so deep in though his sister had to pick out his clothes, Marx nearly never left his house. A great many others.
"

But would you say, given their example, that they had completely mastered themselves? You seek to instruct others with a title that implies mastery of yourself. The question is not whether or not they did. The question is whether or not you can, for none of them openly aspired to teach with the authority of a Magister Templi of the A.'.A.'. as you do.

Don't you understand yet? You're aspiring not only to equal but to surpass the examples you gave...! In fact, you're trying to get us to say it's okay to claim that you already have...!
*"

I agree with this assessment in its entirety.

Have you mastered yourself and become a Magister Templi, Frowclown, or merely regurgitating the theory behind the grade you claim to have attained to?

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Well for one thing, the answer appears directly in your question: VIRTUAL community, versus a PHYSICAL community.

Burying oneself in an online world surrounded by pixels that are meant to represent people is escapism, or in other words, choosing to ignore the real world in favour of a fabricated one. Of course, I'm using the word 'escapism' insofar as what you're describing is concerned.

"Wooden houses on a physical plot of land" is exactly the opposite. It wasn't the denial of physical reality that the "original plan" for the OTO was proposing, but an ACTUAL and PHYSICAL community of Thelemites based in physical reality.

The bottom line is that these laws, customs, legal systems, et cetera are only truly "enforceable" -- or applicable -- in the real world, and would have absolutely no impact or bearing of any significant consequence in a virtual reality.

You're talking about, for lack of better terms, creating a simulation rooted entirely in cyberspace, to which Frater AVV has demonstrated that no one beyond yourself would take seriously.

You're talking about, for lack of better terms, a game. Hell, I could go ahead and set up something I will call the A.'.A.'. in an online chat room, set up an A.'.A.'. squadron in an online campaign of Battlestar Galactica: Beyond the Red Line (awesome game, by the way) to shoot down Black Brother Cylons. Both are as unreal as what you are proposing.

But hey, who am I to tell you what to do? I think it's a silly notion, but the notion isn't mine, so why should you even care what I -- or anyone else on this forum -- have to say about it? Go out and do it already! Who knows, maybe you'll create a heard of virtual Adepts with really interesting avatars who will one day save us from the inevitability of the Matrix.

It's your call. After all, it's your Will, even if a whole lot of us do not agree with it.

But as you said, you are not seeking our permission, nor our approval. So do what thou wilt.

You continuously refuse to hear what we have to say on the matter, and yet you continuously return to debate your point with us.

If you're really set on doing this thing, do it!

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"Further, what is the point of doing that list of things you think is so important, many of the greatest thinkers, inventers, and progressive figures in history never married, were not concerned with mundane things like that."

The point Frater AVV was attempting to get across to you, Frowclown, to put it succinctly, is to master all aspects of your REAL life instead of ignoring it in favour of escapism.

Some of the greatest thinkers actually engaged the real world instead of hiding from it, which is directly apparent from the amount of influence they actually had upon it.

"and my last point the way you speak of Second Life and cyberspace, I bet is exactly the way people at the transition from Isis to Osiris spoke of the ctiy, People in the cities just want to escape the reality of nature, they hide behind giant walls and play games, with their silly numbers and letters, and their silly metal costumes the prance around in. They don't do real work. Not like us out here who have toil in the REAL WORLD"

I fail to see the parallel between organizing society into cities and the escapism of virtual reality. Also, your depiction of events is arguably quite historically inaccurate. Some evidence suggests that the first "cities" came into being when Neolithic hunter-gatherers opted to settle near agriculturally rich centres over their original nomadic lifestyles, the former having created denser population areas that were conducive to easier ways of life.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Yeah, I understood the point you were attempting to get across perfectly, Frater AVV. I was merely commending you on doing it so bloody well!

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Firstly, I must humbly bow before the might of your Kung-Fu, Frater AVV. You move swiftly through the dance with the ease of one who flows with the current, and I applaud you! I have watched your effortless and graceful motions with an eye of admiration.

You've said more on this topic than I care to elucidate upon any further, so I will leave the conversation in your capable hands.

Keep dancing, brother!

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"well, if I take a college syllabus for a physics class my Proff Brown, and I assign the reading and the class work of that syllabus and I grade the class based on the criteria of that syllabus,

it seems rather silly to me that I would call my class, a study of Dr Brown's physics notes, or some such thing, rather than to just call it physics 101."

That's a bit of a stretch. First of all, what would qualify you to teach Physics 101? You may have taken Professor Brown's Physics 101 class, but does that make you a qualified Professor of Physics? From what I understand of the education system, you would need either a Master's or a PhD in order to teach at a university or college level. Sure, you can distribute the syllabus and "grade" "papers" you "assign" to your "students", but without the proper credentials, you'd be nothing more than what the medical community would call a "quack". Or in layman's terms, a fraud.

"If I open a Piano school, but I denote that I am not the inventer of pianos, must I call it hammer-string-chime-box lessons, because heaven forbid that some one learn to play piano if not from the one TRUE ALL MIGHTY AUTHORITY on pianos"

This is another leap in logic. The piano, being an instrument that can be mastered relatively easily by just about anyone, doesn't require credentials in order to teach. There is more apparent validity if a piano teacher is, say, inducted in the Royal Conservatory of Music, or at the very least, has been teaching for twenty-odd years, but there is no general certification that needs to be acquired in order to teach the instrument. The piano, after all, isn't a science.

"I never claimed that I invented the A.'.A.'. I only claimed that I would distribute the information to the initiate at the right time and in the right order, based on his journal records, and that I would proctor exams, grading them on the A.'.A.'. criteria. "

Fine. But does that give you the right to call your order The A.'.A.'.? As in the example demonstrated above (re: Professor Brown's Physics 101), unless you've, let's say, acquired An A.'.A.'. Master's or PhD, you would not be qualified to call yourself a Professor of the A.'.A.'., and therefore have no claim to the title.

As I said in another post, if you want to form an Order using the source material of the A.'.A.'. and supplement it with additional material of your own device, go for it. I see nothing wrong with that per se, as I've done the same. BUT YOUR ORDER IS NOT THE A.'.A.'., nor is mine. We have our own initiation ceremonies, our own corpus of material in addition to the A.'.A.'. syllabus of the grades, our own Outer College system of fundamental preliminary training, and our own general methodology revolving around our own particular set of ideas. Otherwise, what would be the point of forming the Order in the first place if all we're doing is mimicking the A.'.A.'. word for word, step for step? Our Students could just as easily join the A.'.A.'. itself!

Operate in SERVICE to the A.'.A.'., the Great White Brotherhood, whatever... but you are not the A.'.A.'. Proper.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

There was never a question posed in this thread in regards to what the central tenets of Thelema actually MEANT, only an incorrect statement saying "Crowley starts this "religion" and gives no central tenants (sic)".

That statement has been subsequently demonstrated as false, and if clarification about what the central Thelemic tenets mean is desired, that desire should be communicated in a sufficient fashion.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

@Law said

"Well I just find it funny that Crowley starts this "religion" and gives no central tenants, and doesnt even explain his symbol. What is the significance of the "union of opposites" ?"

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Actually, there is a central tenet. You know, the whole "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" thing, "There is no law beyond do what thou wilt" and whatnot... those appear to be as central as one can get.

As for the significance of the union of opposites, Aum418 gave you a good starting point.

Love is the law, love under will

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

It's significant because the union of opposites is an important theme within Thelema.

Love it the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"
but my understanding is that the only criteria for 8=3 in the A.'.A.'. is to have experienced the crossing of the great abyss"

Uhh... I'm certain Jim will correct me if I'm mistaken, but I cannot believe that is the ONLY requirement for attaining to 8=3. Certainly, it is one of the primary requirements, but there are undoubtedly other very important ones that go along with it. Such as, for example, all the other grade work and preparation that is to be undertaken before it.

In any event, I don't see what 8=3 and Crossing the Abyss have to do with what I posted.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"I think we should check off "all of the above" and see what they do."

Ha! That might actually be worthwhile, if only to see how they would react.

"One paradox it would have to handle is that, the further into Thelema you go, the more differentiated from other Thelemites your actual beliefs are likely to become."

Indeed, hence the difficulty inherent in having it recognized in the first place. In a way, I would like to push the proverbial envelope by having Thelema granted official religious status to see what my employer would say if, for example, I requested time off with pay in order to go through Ritual VIII.

Kidding aside, though, I recognize why some would not have this on their list of priorities. Crowley himself warned against calling Thelema a religion, but on the other hand, he wrote the Gnostic Mass to satisfy certain individuals' need for the religious aspect. Religious status would have its positives and negatives, as with anything.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M*

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"Now, specific parts and branches of the government probably have internal lists of religions for their own purposes. The military needs to classify its chaplains, the federal civil service needs to define work holidays, and so on. But this is a far cry from the government as a whole recognizing a religion."

Interesting. This is similar to what I've been able to find regarding Canadian law, both on the Federal and Provincial stage. The Provinces have different requirements for incorporating as a religious body. On the Federal level, there are varying regulations governing who may register as a charity for religious purposes... The Canada Revenue Agency (our equivalent of the IRS), as well as the military have different requirements as well. It's quite the legal mess!

"Maybe you've dug into the legal situation more than I have. I looked at it a dozen years ago, and then, as I recall, you could only legally incorporate a specific body - there was no provision for getting the tenets of a faith acknowledged by the state, except in the common-law sense of long-term usage, as with Judaism or Roman Catholicism."

This appears to hold true from what I've been able to find. My guess is that a given body would, by default, be "recognized" on the federal level if it was to fulfill the different requirements and register in all provinces.

In Alberta, for example, an organization may obtain religious status by registering under the Religious Societies' Land Act, which is far more lenient in what it accepts as a "religious society" than, say, Ontario's Religious Organizations' Lands Act, which stipulates that a religious organization must be "organized for the advancement of and for the conduct of worship, services or rites of the Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, Baha'i, Longhouse Indian, Sikh, Unitarian or Zoroastrian faith, or a subdivision or denomination thereof".

I have no idea why Ontario limits it to the aforementioned faith groups.

Then there's the "Memorandum of Requirements for Recognizing a New Denomination", which governs what organizations in Ontario may register as a religious entity for the purpose of conducting marriage ceremonies legally.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Froclown,

If you want to form an Order using the same source material, grade structure, et cetera as the A.'.A.'. and throw in some additional supplemental material, power to you... Do what thou wilt! Your Order may be in service to the universal AA that Crowley wrote about, but it isn't the Ordo A.'.A.'. as such: it's an Order created using the same skeleton.

I'll admit, I did the same, but I know and my students know that our Order is not the A.'.A.'. in any way, shape, or form. As I said, our Order is in service to what we will call the AA, or the Great White Brotherhood, or whatever other name you feel like calling it, but we make no claim to the title of the Astron Argon, because... well... we aren't that body.

"Why not just join the A.'.A.'. itself, in that case?"

Good question. Again, do what thou wilt.

Love is the law, love under will.

Yours in LVX,
-M