College of Thelema: Thelemic Education

@mark0987 said

"93,

"1 - Do Thelemites believe the Gods in Resh etc are actually Gods? Or are they seen as ascended masters / guides etc? When thinking about Nuit and Hadit, again are they seen as actual Gods or just a way we can perceptualise concepts of infinity and Universal consciousness? Could they be called whatever we like?"

I would say it depends on the Thelemite. I go through different phases in what I understand these 'beings' to be myself. An arechetype, an imagined form which has personal symbolic meaning and therefore effects you in a certain way. Actual conscious beings, or a myraid of other personal theories. In my opinion in practice it doesn't matter and over time any conclusions you draw at date x will be different upon date y, and then if you are as scattered as I am at times, you may revert back to the conclusions drawn at x!..................
........

93, 93/93."

I cut the quote down to save scrolling fingers!

A great reply with some interesting stuff, thank you. The link was very interesting as were your comments about not taking anyone's ideas or experiences too much to heart - like rumors you hear about people, it's an analogy that will stay with me.

Your experiences and thoughts on Crowley and other Thelemites were very insightful for me and have really put my mind at ease. I suppose the take home message from all three replies is to work for myself and not get hung up on what other people think, say or do. Kind of the point of Thelema eh?

@Patrick Ossoski said

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

@UK93 said

"1 - Do Thelemites believe the Gods in Resh etc are actually Gods? Or are they seen as ascended masters / guides etc? When thinking about Nuit and Hadit, again are they seen as actual Gods or just a way we can perceptualise concepts of infinity and Universal consciousness? Could they be called whatever we like?"

Firstly:
Thelemites are a rather large group. You shouldn't look for answers in (non-existent) consensus among self-proclaimed Thelemites, rather you should study and meditate on the holy texts and the prophet's teachings. (Blessed be he!) Ultimately, you should draw your own conclusions. It's undesirable with regards as many of these concepts to say "it is so and not so." But for a start, simple answers can be given to pave the way to further understanding.

On Resh, the most useful perspective is that it is directed to one's Holy Guardian Angel or whatever you call your Lord. By identifying with many god-forms one can learn to see beyond the outer images and into the Unity which is described in the adoration.

Secondly:
It's not a common idea that the Gods of Resh are Masters etc, no. On the other hand, there's no issue in taking them as actual Gods, or (more or less) whatever. Just keep in mind the One Idea, the Holy Guardian Angel, above all.

As for Nuit and Hadit, they are basically the components of existence itself, which comes from the relationship between the two. It's immaterial how you describe them.

As for calling them whatever we like, sure, but with a certain reverence and respect. (Not because they are personal separate gods who might take offense, but because they represent core sacred ideas, our own sacredness.)

"2 - Where does all the talk of Baphomet come from? I hear more reference to Baphomet in Thelema than any other system, and my understanding is that he/she isn't a kind and loving entity. Is this a misconception?"

The main useful source on Baphomet for us is the holy book Liber A'ash.

The many references you may hear about Baphomet in θέλημα may not be because of his actual importance, but because of the ignorance of many people. Baphomet looks like a "dark" and "satanic" figure to the ignorant (most of them wouldn't be able to tell actual dark and satanic if it hit them on their noses), and the prophet and his teachings suffer a similar treatment. Far away be both of them from what those ignorant people claim.

With regards to your question about Baphomet's character, I say kind no, loving yes, and refer you to the mentioned holy book.

"3 - Similar to the above, there seem to be a lot of Thelemites who are into 'Satanism' etc, and this issue isn't one with the concept of Satanism (eg you have to believe in Christianity to be a Satanist) more one with the the fact some people seem to associate their Thelema with evil/dark magic and the like. A minority to be sure, but a larger minority in Thelema than elsewhere I think."

I understand what you're saying about these many self-proclaimed Thelemites, but what is the question here? There are many immature and ignorant people out there.

Note also that "Satanism" can have several distinct meanings. I suggest you just ignore the matter unless you have a strong interest in it.

"4 - Is Crowley really the be all and end all? I believe in not believing anything 'just because' but I do get the feeling a lot of people live or die by what he wrote with no room for movement."

I do not know what you mean by "be and end all." If you mean, vaguely, that Thelemites hold him in high status, that's generally correct. What that status means can vary between people.

I can't speak for anyone else. I live and would die by and for what was revealed to him. There's no greater possibility of movement than this.

"I can understand the 'CHaos Magic' approach to worshipping whatever works for you - how rigid is it in Thelema?"

See my first answer above. I believe that about covers it, but I'll also append a portion of a verse from that most holy of books, Liber Legis:

"The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me. I am the visible object of worship [...]" (III:22)

These are my humble opinions. Feel free to clarify anything.

Love is the law, love under will."

Thank you for the very thorough and considered answer - you have given me a lot to think about and I need to go away and look at some of the things you have mentioned.

Your comments on Resh are particularly helpful as are the directions on where to read further about Baphomet.

I think the general consensus seems to be 'ignore the people who think they're Satanists' or 'ignore the people who think Thelemites are Satanists'!

Thank you for the replies - they are much appreciated. I might not have articulated myself as well as I would have liked, so here goes for my replies:

Jim

@Jim Eshelman said

"I'm not sure it's even relevant to "the practice of Thelema." However, you might mean something different by that phrase than I do, so I'll withhold judgment.

After all, the last two things you mentioned pre-exist Thelema - they aren't "Thelema" per se - and the first one is a specific practice of A.'.A.'. and some schools that derive inspiration and teaching from it.

Now, if you'd said you were undertaking the study of Thelemic magick, it's not a bad start.

I'll answer where I can, and try to help you clarify your questions for the rest."

Yes, I think I meant Thelemic Magick, the more I learn and read the more I understand. I see lots of similarities with other systems - for example Sun Adoration seems to be fairly common. My mistake.

"(1) Yes. (2) No. (3) Both yes and no. (4) Does the question event matter?"

To me, yes it really does matter. I believe in a higher power / God / Being, and for me it doesn't have a name as yet. Perhaps this will come but in the meantime I struggle when people tell me God is called 'x' and looks like 'y'. If they say that it's their interpretation and I'm allowed my own, well, that's altogether different.

"(1) What would the difference be, if any? (2) What would it matter? (3) What would it matter to you?"

I feel that for me worship of an ascended master is different to that of a God. I'm not even sure if they exist. I'm just after clarity here really - it seems like there may not be any.

"Same question as above, right? (At this point, to avoid a lot of repetition, I think my best shot is to suggest you read the first three chapters of my book Pearls of Wisdom.)"

Pretty much the same question but I really intended to ask can 'God' in the context of Thelema mean what I think it means to me personally or is it more rigid such as in Christianity. Repetition. Sorry. I do intend to buy your book (if it was on Kindle I'd buy it now!).

" This has little or nothing to do with Thelema per se. The primary connection is through O.T.O., which identifies itself as a Templar-themed organization. Baphomet is the name of a gods worshipped by the Templars, and it's only slim connection to Thelema at all is that Aleister Crowley took it has his magical name as a X° of O.T.O.

You might look into the 30° of Freemasonry and collateral writings for further information on this adopted theme of Templar-esque freemasonry such as O.T.O."

Interesting, thank you.

"On a person-by-person basis, I have long questioned whether the self-identified Satanists are actually Thelemites. But, if we let them label themselves as they will, then that's all about them, not about Thelema.

It's an issue of true ecumenicalism. In Pearls of Wisdom, the first chapter, I wrote, "...many think that Thelema is Satanic; and that misstatement is not always easy to dislodge because Thelema is not anti-Satanic: It makes space for (and even encourages) any path that leads one to God.""

Just the answer I was hoping for!

"Personally, I can't see why you would bother coming around if something like that (under some name or form or representation or something else of some kind) wasn't your goal. But that's you and not me. Again, Pearls is probably what you're looking for to answer the questions you have thought to ask and the ones you haven't thought to ask."

I think I've answered this above - a Diety isn't the issue, it's being told to believe something dogmatically I have an issue with and I was wondering how Thelema sits with this. I'm confident I have my answer now though

And yes, I seem to have somewhat missed the point of:

'All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt'

I tend to overthink things, just consider it as one of my endearing quirks

Hello. I've made a few posts here before when starting out with Thelema but since then things have dropped off for me and I'd really like some help and input with it if you can help?

Firstly, I believe in Hermetics. It's fully resonated with me and I'm completely 'bought in' to the basic principles of Hermeticism and Magic - Kybalion, Bardon etc. My issue is with a few specific points of Thelema.

Secondly, I realise probably all of my issues will have been answered before BUT when reading through multiple threads it's very easy to become confused and that is one of the things which has put me off. I'm posting this to try and find one place for my questions and misconceptions to hopefully find answers.

When I started learning about Thelema I really liked it. I practiced Resh and LBRP, and enjoyed the start of the journey towards my HGA. 'Is that not enough to practice Thelema?' I hear you ask - and the answer is no I'm afraid. A few things stick with me and I could really use some clarity:

1 - Do Thelemites believe the Gods in Resh etc are actually Gods? Or are they seen as ascended masters / guides etc? When thinking about Nuit and Hadit, again are they seen as actual Gods or just a way we can perceptualise concepts of infinity and Universal consciousness? Could they be called whatever we like?

2 - Where does all the talk of Baphomet come from? I hear more reference to Baphomet in Thelema than any other system, and my understanding is that he/she isn't a kind and loving entity. Is this a misconception?

3 - Similar to the above, there seem to be a lot of Thelemites who are into 'Satanism' etc, and this issue isn't one with the concept of Satanism (eg you have to believe in Christianity to be a Satanist) more one with the the fact some people seem to associate their Thelema with evil/dark magic and the like. A minority to be sure, but a larger minority in Thelema than elsewhere I think.

4 - Is Crowley really the be all and end all? I believe in not believing anything 'just because' but I do get the feeling a lot of people live or die by what he wrote with no room for movement.

I think the main thing for me though is the concept of worshiping a God or Deity. I can understand the 'CHaos Magic' approach to worshipping whatever works for you - how rigid is it in Thelema?

Please let me know what you thing, thanks to anyone who can help shed some light.

I had this exact question myself

I have cats and a dog, generally speaking as soon as I start any kind of ritual they sit down and look disinterested... I know it's not like a cat to do that

I think the calm atmosphere generated rubs off on the animals actually although I haven't done any invocations or evocations yet so we'll have to wait and see how that goes.

I actually think Thelema as a whole could be seen as a compassion practice. Granted, I'm still fairly new to it all but if the point of a practice is to develop a specific skill or mindset then Thelema has done a good job on the compassion side for me personally.

Thanks for the welcome

Perhaps the stuff on Crowley is meant to be a barrier of some sort to those who aren't serious about developing their will? If you can't be bothered to do a little internet research then how can you be bothered to develop yourself as a person?

Just a thought, but then I've not had my morning coffee yet!

Being new to Thelema this is a subject quite close to my heart, and I deal with it in exactly the same way I deal with most conflict - smile and nod.

In my younger days (I'm only in my 30s but hey, work with me here) I used to get angry when someone said something I considered to be uninformed or daft, I'd confront them and try to convince them of the error of their ways. I bet you can guess how many times this worked? Conflict leads to more conflict in my experience, never mind the fact we should all be tolerant of everyone's worldview so long as it isn't causing harm.

These days if someone says something like 'Crowley sacrificed children!' I smile, say 'ok' and don't react. This generally leads to questions being asked and gives the opportunity to point them gently in the direction of finding answers for themselves or better yet examining the realities of their own belief systems. Catholic Mass being a good example of an Occult Ceremony...

There are also ways of framing Thelema without using words like 'Occult', we can all think of examples where our practices are almost identical to Yoga / Meditaiton / Buddhism / Christianity etc, I tend to talk to people about those things first before mentioning Thelema. Sadly the press has had a field day with the OTO and the whole 'sex cult' thing seems to have stuck.

Generally though I think actions speak louder than words and leading by example will convince more people of the right in your beliefs than any argument ever will.

Great picture - the more you look at it the more it makes you think

Thoughts on this from a Newbie:

Firstly, thanks for a great site Jim

Normally I do most of my reading on Kindle because it's easy and portable - I can't actually remember the last time I bought a 'real' book. That said I prefer reading books the old fashioned way but time, space and my impatient nature usually get the better of me.

BUT with this book I'm more than happy to buy the physical version (on Friday, payday, hooray!) for a couple of reasons. The most important reason is the generosity of this site in the information it gives away and the fact that every post I've read of Jim's has been considered and very helpful. I appreciate people doing stuff for the greater good like this so I'm more than willing to help by buying a book that has obviously had a lot of effort put into it.

Secondly, a hard copy is a lot better for learning the Occult etc from - I'm not sure why but for reference purposes they always just seem more useful.

So.... Friday here we come!

93 everyone

I'm new to the board but have been lurking around for a while and getting some really good information as I start to explore Thelema. I'm not new to the occult (well, I've been learning for about 2 years so I guess I am still new) but I always avoided Thelema due to a lot of the things I have read and heard about Alistair Crowley. After hearing Dr David Shoemaker on 'The Higherside Chats' I realised most of what I have read is just plain wrong and decided to look deeper in Thelema.

I now understand the irony of having stayed away from it for so long because it fits almost exactly with my own world views and philosophy, and most of the nonsense written about Crowley is the exact opposite of the truth he was trying to get across.

So, here I am, a month or so into my basic practice and I finally feel like I'm starting to understand a little about Thelema.

I'm in the UK and not come across any Thelemites personally but I know you must be out there somewhere!

Looking forward to joining in the discussions here