Thelema and islam.
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Greetings people,
You see, I noticed for a while To Mega Therion included Muhammad as a saint of Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica ; as a beginner in the philosophy of Thelema, I heard that Crowley had some links with islamic mysticism, especially sufism.
Nevertheless, what is the thelemic conception of islam ? I suppose that you can accept the Liber Legis and the Quran admitting their respective qualities ; but is it really compatible ? I imagine you can see Allah as a part of the human mind and a reflection of the Universal Being. At least, that's my opinion.Beyond that point in the islamic way of seing religion, isn't Thelema a bidaa (innovation) ? I know that the Beast was cultivated and knew islam enough, but how can you be muslim and thelemite at the same time ?
For instance, what is Thelema's point of view about references in the Quran about hellish states of mind ? Isn't it similar with what Crowley feared in his childhood, with a God of wrath and punishment ?I would be glad using Thelema's philosophy with some islamic works and practices... But it must be spiritualy relevant.
Thank you for your friendly answers
(And I apologize if I made some grammar mistakes, english isn't my mother tongue) -
Compatible?
There is no god but God. On the face of it, that is the difficult part. For there do seem to be other gods in Thelema, and some would argue that this is absolutely true.
But words can be tricky. From a Sufi perspective, I can see how one could say that everything that exists is an aspect, a face of the one God.
But is every Muslim mind ready to use the word "god" for various faces of God? I doubt it.
Are you? Because the three faces of The Book of the Law may be seen as three faces of the one God even though it calls these faces "gods."
As for the rest, it is jihad. And while most here believe it to refer to an internal spiritual jihad, there is always that debate.
Forgive me. I am not that familiar with Islam, but I have tried to consider the basic relation of Thelema to it. Perhaps, at least, my poor start will begin further discussion.
Please excuse the dogs.
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Compatible?
I wouldn't find any religion compatible with any other religion. Comparable? Of course. Capable of tolerant co-existence? Sure. But religion shouldn't be so flip as software, which one can choose per convenience.
There is no law beyond Do what thou Wilt.
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law.I find that only possible to achieve when one has 100% conviction of themselves. In other words, I'm not sure one would have 100% conviction of themselves if they were questioning if another direction would be "compatible" with the one they where on.
As far as any dogmatic stance that perhaps Liber Legis would indicate for us on your question, and any words of the founder of Thelema which might help us answer your question, I direct you to Liber Legis III:49-54 [emphasis added]
I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men.
Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!
With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.
I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.
With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.
Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your crapulous creeds.(before I continue, let me remind some who may think otherwise that "crapulous" does not mean "shitty" or any similar thought, it means something akin to "over full with the garbage of gluttony." So any incompatibility Thelema has with any other "creed" is due to Thelema's ultimate simplicity.)
About the verse concerning Mohammed (Islam) Crowley wrote: Mohammed's point of view is wrong too; but he needs not so sharp a correction as "Jesus." It is his face - his outward semblance - that is to be covered with His wings. The tenets of Islam, correctly interpreted, are not far from our Way of Life and Light and Love and Liberty. This applies especially to the secret tenets. The external creed is mere nonsense suited to the intelligence of the peoples among whom it was promulgated; but even so, Islam is magnificent in practice. Its code is that of a man of courage and honour and self-respect; contrasting admirably with the cringing cowardice of the damnation-dodging Christians with their unmanly and dishonest acceptance of vicarious sacrifice, and their currish conception of themselves as "born in sin," "miserable sinners" with "no health in us."
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It's been a long time since I took any religion's literal dogma as anything but shadows and grasping attempts at expressing experiential truth.
Dogma. Doctrine.
I guess I spit on all crapulous creeds.
Nevertheless, experientially, one's HGA will become absolutely dominant over all other expressions of "gods" and their doctrines in one's life, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit speaks as the visible symbol of the HGA.
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By the way, the subject of Thelema & Islam has been discussed in a couple of other threads in recent years. The current questions are distinctive and interesting, and are pulling interesting responses; and, if you are more generally interested in more on the topic, search around for the earlier threads.
A useful Google search might be: site:heruraha.net Islam
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Well, after a full day dealing with that issue, I have to agree with the two first posts that were amazed about a possible compatibility : it is simply not realistic. Islam does have a few qualities Crowley noticed and were pretty close to the philosophy of Thelema ; nevertheless, the simple concept of Allah as an entity under a Supreme God is problematic.
I am not an expert in islamic culture, but I know that a great importance is given to the moto "La illa il Allah" ("There is no god but Allah"). It implies that there is nothing greater than Allah ; at least, that's my understanding of it.
I suppose Crowley were close to islam for a few reasons : it is a pretty conservative religion (the concept of bidaa were involved in a late post) and sufism has a few common points with Thelema. But it is a pretty superficial interpretation of those two religious cultures.I practiced in the past zhikr ("remembrance"), a sufi meditation using repetitions of a single formule to achieve a special state of mind... I found that really fascinating, and I would have been glad to use this method with a thelemic mantra (for instance the Aka dua).
The following link is rather relevant, for people interested :
helema.tribe.net/thread/dce420d9-daca-4b3f-80cf-2dc62feedcd1
I do not really like the political/social discussion in it, but it shows the importance of keeping critical mind on every topic : it includes Thelema as long as To Mega Therion and islam.That was my long post of the day
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Well, just to hit one point. It wouldn't be "Allah as an entity under a Supreme God." Allah would still be the word/name for the Supreme God.
Judaism, from which the qabalah originated, has a similar concept in the Shema: "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one."
Now in Western, Hermetic qabalah, you hear all sorts of talk about other "gods" that would make a Jewish qabalist jump out of their skin. The missing piece has to do with these "gods" being related to the qabalah by way of analyzing their function in other religions. From the Jewish perspective, none of these are actual gods; they are all seen as aspects of the Supreme God and are only mistakenly understood as gods by others.
But this goes back to Takamba's distinction of "compatible" versus "comparable," which I bristled at, but he's right on a doctrinal level - the level of "compatibility."
Western qabalah has looked at many religions comparatively and organized their gods, angels, demons, etc. as if they are all just words for the parts of the same one organized thing, variously understood as the "Supreme God" or even as no-God - but all describing the same interrelationships between these experiential aspects of "divine" manifestation.
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Thank you for those more informations Aion
I am currently studying qabbalah, I see I do have many things to learn. But let's admit Allah as the Supreme God of a potential muslim thelemite : I see a contradiction with a very important principle of islam. In fact, the concept of "shirk" ("association") is absolutely forbidden in islam : the only idea of dividing God in three parts as christians do is something that deeply hurts islamic sensibility.Taking that point, how could a muslim deal with pagan gods ? Maybe I'm a bit narrow-minded, but I believe it would lead to a syncretic religious science which has a lot to do with old arabian religion that existed before islam.
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If you were a Muslim who was already struggling with opening your mind to the truths inherent in other religions, this would be a path forward - a way of imagining the similarities.
I'm not concerned with any typically ethnocentrically dogmatic Jew, Christian, Muslim, etcetera, finding Thelema to be a compatible religion. It's not.
" I believe it would lead to a syncretic religious science "
Yes.
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And yet Crowley found the repetition of the unity sutra very useful as he marched through the north African desert while prepping for his own abyss crossing.
Is "compatibility" really a necessary thing? Aren't zen koans an attempt to make epigrams out of contradiction?
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@Diogenos said
"Taking that point, how could a muslim deal with pagan gods ? Maybe I'm a bit narrow-minded, but I believe it would lead to a syncretic religious science which has a lot to do with old arabian religion that existed before islam."
It has been a long time since I read the Qur'an but, as when I've read the bible, this syncretism is what has always interested me. If you know how to sift out the dogma, it's very easy to find the pre-Islamic religion in the text.
The current dogmatic external religion that has established itself based on the text I would say is not compatible with Thelema. Nor will it often admit that parts of its "inspired text" are lifted directly from pre-existing Arabian mythology. However, the mystic truths that threaded through Arabia, were the dominant religion at the time the text was written, made their mark on the text, and were subsequently embraced by Sufi mysticism, I would say are just as important as every other string of ageless wisdom that has threaded its way through history.
The Islamic Allah is nothing more than a re-imagining of the Canaanite El, the Hebrew Elohim, and the Nabatean Allah. This is not unlike how the ancient gods Nut, Behedty, Horus, Harpocrates, and Re-Herakhty have been adjusted and reinvigorated by the new dispensation of Thelema.
Something that hit me just recently and has made its mark on my psyche:
Aleister Crowley was sent into his hotel room in Cairo by Ouarda the Seer on Friday, April 8th 1904 at 12 noon to receive the Book of the Law. As he made that journey into history, the muezzin of the city were calling the faithful to the most important prayer of the week.Whether wearing the mask of Allah or of Horus, the "Lord of the Universe" is One.
And Zero.
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The notion of syncretism in holy scriptures of islam is something I noticed for a while : just consider satanic verses time or a few common points with the Talmud and apocryph christian texts and you will have a interesting parallel.
I could recommand people who are not really fond of arabian history to research a few informations about ancient pagan religion of Arabia : Allah was considered as the supreme God of a pantheon. I found this idea original first time I heard it : "how could a pagan religion build a monotheistic cult ?". But my searches and this thread are showing to me that islam didn't really come out of nowhere in history. -
The shift from polytheism to henotheism to monotheism over the course of human religious history could represent our own progress from experiencing a chaos of conflicting and competing psychological drives to having a sense of purpose and order in organizing and ruling those drives.
Thus in the tales the many gods first become lesser gods ruled by a supreme god and then over time become facets of the One God as well as angels and demons.
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@Aion said
"The shift from polytheism to henotheism to monotheism over the course of human religious history could represent our own progress from experiencing a chaos of conflicting and competing psychological drives to having a sense of purpose and order in organizing and ruling those drives.
Thus in the tales the many gods first become lesser gods ruled by a supreme god and then over time become facets of the One God as well as angels and demons."
Which in time became "I am alone: there is no God where I am."
or
"There is no god but man." -
I was wondering where it would go next - if someone was going to try to say that Thelema was henotheistic. If it is, technically so, it's a more abstract henotheism than that which pitted various gods against one another for dominance. "The Perfect and the Perfect are one Perfect and not two; nay, are none!"
The tricky bit is that Thelema seems set up to allow a person a transition from an external understanding of [God]* to an internal one. It seems to make room for people to be at more than one place on the spectrum of relating to [God].
"The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me. I am the visible object of worship; the others are secret; for the Beast & his Bride are they: and for the winners of the Ordeal x. What is this? Thou shalt know."
It is one of the "secret ones," for the "winners of the Ordeal x," who says, "I am alone: there is no God where I am."
And another who says, "Let my servants be few & secret."
Well, that's my perspective anyway.
*It becomes close to impossible to choose one appropriate word to encompass the object of such a transitioning relationship in all of its stages. For this reason, I use the following notation: [God].
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Allah is just Nuit in drag. The rest is mostly labels (and personal psychological comfort).
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@Aion said
"The tricky bit is that Thelema seems set up to allow a person a transition from an external understanding of [God]* to an internal one. It seems to make room for people to be at more than one place on the spectrum of relating to [God]."
I think this is too simplistic. That is, personally, I found that the internal/external point of view that arose most naturally for me would switch each grade for a while. It didn't particularly matter what my opinion was (and my flexible opinion on the matter remained more or less the same, even if my language changed about it); but the natural perception, and the means that allowed for easiest and deepest connection, picked their own internal vs. external orientation. And (as already mentioned) this flipped predictably every new grade (oh, except it didn't exactly flip from Zelator to Practicus).
FWIW.
""The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me. I am the visible object of worship; the others are secret; for the Beast & his Bride are they: and for the winners of the Ordeal x. What is this? Thou shalt know."
It is one of the "secret ones," for the "winners of the Ordeal x," who says, "I am alone: there is no God where I am.""
FWIW I've always taken "the others" in the above quote to refer to Nuit and Hadit.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aion said
"The tricky bit is that Thelema seems set up to allow a person a transition from an external understanding of [God]* to an internal one. It seems to make room for people to be at more than one place on the spectrum of relating to [God]."I think this is too simplistic. . . "
Yes, I'll concede that quite willingly.
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Going further into islamic mysticism, I discovered some interesting elements to bring to this debate. Have you ever heard of Bohras ? This is a sect of ismaelism and was forced to refugiate in India. During this adaptation, this movement mixed with local hinduism, including some concepts and even gods of this religion. The point is ismaelis have always been fond of gnosis, using ancient greek elements at their edge. Astrology, hermetism, philosphy and occultism was their stuff.
Conclusion : they had the same Quran I have in my librairy, but they understood the idea of unicity of God with another meaning. Is that really orthodox, that is the question. According to salafis and most scholar of islamic religion, certainly not. But I know Thelema considers Islam as an old Aeon religion, so a syncretism is maybe the right response to that interrogation. And the exemple of hinduism as a cult relating a single God with His many faces is pretty relevant to me.