Thelema and islam.
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Well, after a full day dealing with that issue, I have to agree with the two first posts that were amazed about a possible compatibility : it is simply not realistic. Islam does have a few qualities Crowley noticed and were pretty close to the philosophy of Thelema ; nevertheless, the simple concept of Allah as an entity under a Supreme God is problematic.
I am not an expert in islamic culture, but I know that a great importance is given to the moto "La illa il Allah" ("There is no god but Allah"). It implies that there is nothing greater than Allah ; at least, that's my understanding of it.
I suppose Crowley were close to islam for a few reasons : it is a pretty conservative religion (the concept of bidaa were involved in a late post) and sufism has a few common points with Thelema. But it is a pretty superficial interpretation of those two religious cultures.I practiced in the past zhikr ("remembrance"), a sufi meditation using repetitions of a single formule to achieve a special state of mind... I found that really fascinating, and I would have been glad to use this method with a thelemic mantra (for instance the Aka dua).
The following link is rather relevant, for people interested :
helema.tribe.net/thread/dce420d9-daca-4b3f-80cf-2dc62feedcd1
I do not really like the political/social discussion in it, but it shows the importance of keeping critical mind on every topic : it includes Thelema as long as To Mega Therion and islam.That was my long post of the day
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Well, just to hit one point. It wouldn't be "Allah as an entity under a Supreme God." Allah would still be the word/name for the Supreme God.
Judaism, from which the qabalah originated, has a similar concept in the Shema: "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one."
Now in Western, Hermetic qabalah, you hear all sorts of talk about other "gods" that would make a Jewish qabalist jump out of their skin. The missing piece has to do with these "gods" being related to the qabalah by way of analyzing their function in other religions. From the Jewish perspective, none of these are actual gods; they are all seen as aspects of the Supreme God and are only mistakenly understood as gods by others.
But this goes back to Takamba's distinction of "compatible" versus "comparable," which I bristled at, but he's right on a doctrinal level - the level of "compatibility."
Western qabalah has looked at many religions comparatively and organized their gods, angels, demons, etc. as if they are all just words for the parts of the same one organized thing, variously understood as the "Supreme God" or even as no-God - but all describing the same interrelationships between these experiential aspects of "divine" manifestation.
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Thank you for those more informations Aion
I am currently studying qabbalah, I see I do have many things to learn. But let's admit Allah as the Supreme God of a potential muslim thelemite : I see a contradiction with a very important principle of islam. In fact, the concept of "shirk" ("association") is absolutely forbidden in islam : the only idea of dividing God in three parts as christians do is something that deeply hurts islamic sensibility.Taking that point, how could a muslim deal with pagan gods ? Maybe I'm a bit narrow-minded, but I believe it would lead to a syncretic religious science which has a lot to do with old arabian religion that existed before islam.
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If you were a Muslim who was already struggling with opening your mind to the truths inherent in other religions, this would be a path forward - a way of imagining the similarities.
I'm not concerned with any typically ethnocentrically dogmatic Jew, Christian, Muslim, etcetera, finding Thelema to be a compatible religion. It's not.
" I believe it would lead to a syncretic religious science "
Yes.
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And yet Crowley found the repetition of the unity sutra very useful as he marched through the north African desert while prepping for his own abyss crossing.
Is "compatibility" really a necessary thing? Aren't zen koans an attempt to make epigrams out of contradiction?
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@Diogenos said
"Taking that point, how could a muslim deal with pagan gods ? Maybe I'm a bit narrow-minded, but I believe it would lead to a syncretic religious science which has a lot to do with old arabian religion that existed before islam."
It has been a long time since I read the Qur'an but, as when I've read the bible, this syncretism is what has always interested me. If you know how to sift out the dogma, it's very easy to find the pre-Islamic religion in the text.
The current dogmatic external religion that has established itself based on the text I would say is not compatible with Thelema. Nor will it often admit that parts of its "inspired text" are lifted directly from pre-existing Arabian mythology. However, the mystic truths that threaded through Arabia, were the dominant religion at the time the text was written, made their mark on the text, and were subsequently embraced by Sufi mysticism, I would say are just as important as every other string of ageless wisdom that has threaded its way through history.
The Islamic Allah is nothing more than a re-imagining of the Canaanite El, the Hebrew Elohim, and the Nabatean Allah. This is not unlike how the ancient gods Nut, Behedty, Horus, Harpocrates, and Re-Herakhty have been adjusted and reinvigorated by the new dispensation of Thelema.
Something that hit me just recently and has made its mark on my psyche:
Aleister Crowley was sent into his hotel room in Cairo by Ouarda the Seer on Friday, April 8th 1904 at 12 noon to receive the Book of the Law. As he made that journey into history, the muezzin of the city were calling the faithful to the most important prayer of the week.Whether wearing the mask of Allah or of Horus, the "Lord of the Universe" is One.
And Zero.
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The notion of syncretism in holy scriptures of islam is something I noticed for a while : just consider satanic verses time or a few common points with the Talmud and apocryph christian texts and you will have a interesting parallel.
I could recommand people who are not really fond of arabian history to research a few informations about ancient pagan religion of Arabia : Allah was considered as the supreme God of a pantheon. I found this idea original first time I heard it : "how could a pagan religion build a monotheistic cult ?". But my searches and this thread are showing to me that islam didn't really come out of nowhere in history. -
The shift from polytheism to henotheism to monotheism over the course of human religious history could represent our own progress from experiencing a chaos of conflicting and competing psychological drives to having a sense of purpose and order in organizing and ruling those drives.
Thus in the tales the many gods first become lesser gods ruled by a supreme god and then over time become facets of the One God as well as angels and demons.
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@Aion said
"The shift from polytheism to henotheism to monotheism over the course of human religious history could represent our own progress from experiencing a chaos of conflicting and competing psychological drives to having a sense of purpose and order in organizing and ruling those drives.
Thus in the tales the many gods first become lesser gods ruled by a supreme god and then over time become facets of the One God as well as angels and demons."
Which in time became "I am alone: there is no God where I am."
or
"There is no god but man." -
I was wondering where it would go next - if someone was going to try to say that Thelema was henotheistic. If it is, technically so, it's a more abstract henotheism than that which pitted various gods against one another for dominance. "The Perfect and the Perfect are one Perfect and not two; nay, are none!"
The tricky bit is that Thelema seems set up to allow a person a transition from an external understanding of [God]* to an internal one. It seems to make room for people to be at more than one place on the spectrum of relating to [God].
"The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me. I am the visible object of worship; the others are secret; for the Beast & his Bride are they: and for the winners of the Ordeal x. What is this? Thou shalt know."
It is one of the "secret ones," for the "winners of the Ordeal x," who says, "I am alone: there is no God where I am."
And another who says, "Let my servants be few & secret."
Well, that's my perspective anyway.
*It becomes close to impossible to choose one appropriate word to encompass the object of such a transitioning relationship in all of its stages. For this reason, I use the following notation: [God].
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Allah is just Nuit in drag. The rest is mostly labels (and personal psychological comfort).
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@Aion said
"The tricky bit is that Thelema seems set up to allow a person a transition from an external understanding of [God]* to an internal one. It seems to make room for people to be at more than one place on the spectrum of relating to [God]."
I think this is too simplistic. That is, personally, I found that the internal/external point of view that arose most naturally for me would switch each grade for a while. It didn't particularly matter what my opinion was (and my flexible opinion on the matter remained more or less the same, even if my language changed about it); but the natural perception, and the means that allowed for easiest and deepest connection, picked their own internal vs. external orientation. And (as already mentioned) this flipped predictably every new grade (oh, except it didn't exactly flip from Zelator to Practicus).
FWIW.
""The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me. I am the visible object of worship; the others are secret; for the Beast & his Bride are they: and for the winners of the Ordeal x. What is this? Thou shalt know."
It is one of the "secret ones," for the "winners of the Ordeal x," who says, "I am alone: there is no God where I am.""
FWIW I've always taken "the others" in the above quote to refer to Nuit and Hadit.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Aion said
"The tricky bit is that Thelema seems set up to allow a person a transition from an external understanding of [God]* to an internal one. It seems to make room for people to be at more than one place on the spectrum of relating to [God]."I think this is too simplistic. . . "
Yes, I'll concede that quite willingly.
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Going further into islamic mysticism, I discovered some interesting elements to bring to this debate. Have you ever heard of Bohras ? This is a sect of ismaelism and was forced to refugiate in India. During this adaptation, this movement mixed with local hinduism, including some concepts and even gods of this religion. The point is ismaelis have always been fond of gnosis, using ancient greek elements at their edge. Astrology, hermetism, philosphy and occultism was their stuff.
Conclusion : they had the same Quran I have in my librairy, but they understood the idea of unicity of God with another meaning. Is that really orthodox, that is the question. According to salafis and most scholar of islamic religion, certainly not. But I know Thelema considers Islam as an old Aeon religion, so a syncretism is maybe the right response to that interrogation. And the exemple of hinduism as a cult relating a single God with His many faces is pretty relevant to me. -
I think every person may find some things especially useful to him in any religion. And each religion may have some objective specialities too. One can keep the best parts found and apply them to thelemic practice. What i like and apply most from islam is the "pure monotheism" concept (to Nuit). And if only one technique could last, it may be that
. To Nuit ! To Nuit ! Maximum dedication to highest possible God(according to one's understanding). -
The perspective I usually take is that the traditional, popular religions are the most "outer" of the "outer schools." They are the most concrete and literal, and that's where everyone starts in their early development - with the concretely literal. Many stay on that level their whole lives. But others, usually through crises of faith, develop a more holistic, metaphorical approach.
If you want to use the language of "schools," then ultimately there is only one, united, most-inner "school." But there are many and diverse outer schools, and they conflict with one another, only able to accept a part of the whole.
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Hi all. Long time, no post here.
I once had a Quran and in a rather manic state, while I was very much into Thelema, I was reading it and came up with this idea that 'Allah' actually was in reference to the Higher Self, or perhaps even the Ego. When read that way, of course, the whole text takes on radically different meaning. Was that the intention? Probably not, and that idea certainly wasn't genius. But it was interesting, anyway. You should have heard my ex's reaction at that time (an Indonesian Muslim).
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First of all, you must keep in mind that islam is not compatible with any new religion. According to islamic belief quran covers all of the previous monotheistic beliefs - judaism, christianism - and declares that islam is the final version of the true religion. Islam accepts Christ, but as a prophet not an aspect of the god. Holy trinity of christianity is a blasphemy in islam.
In the point of being a muslim thelemite, i must say that you will find that quite hard, islam wants you to accept everything in quran without question, believe that todays quran is not changed in anyway throughout 1400 years - even in the early day quran was not in written form - and state that "there is not god but Allah and muhammad is his true prophet". These are pure dogma.
I am new to Thelema but I strongly doubt that an eager mind to learn the truth and to "know thyself" is not compatible for any part of islam. I must state that I am not an Islamic Scholar but I believe that I have enough knowledge for quran and islam as a result of growing in an islamic country.