True Will and Evolution
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93,
I study psychology at university, the most interesting aspect is that based upon biology. It is truly amazing what our brains can do- the cases of people who have half their brain taken away and yet are still perfectly functioning, the brain rewires itself to cope and is most definitely like a computer which maintains itself.
When you look at the cells in the body and the organs, even more fascinating the organelles within a cell it is like a structured universe with it's own order. It further reaffirms the hermetic axiom of "As above so below".
Again all these things are controlled automatically, one may argue from the will to survive.
"What are your opinions? Does ceremonial magic help shape our reality as well as others? How about yoga? How does this happen? What physical changes happen when practicing magick in your opinion? Do you as a magician evolve in a certain direction? If so, what is that?
"I am personally ocnflicted on my opinion of this, largely due to not having enough experience to decide upon a conclusion. I would argue that magick definitely changes the self, psychologically, which in turn effects our behaviour and thus influences our environment.
Using visualisation, sitting in an asana, concentration etc. will all effect brain activity and fire neurons, as a result those portions of the brain may become more well defined and even expand physically- more pathways being created. Of course this occurs for any other behaviour as well.
Of course I have also recorded manifestation of an external nature when magick has been used, but I rarely perform such operations and so cannot say, "My magick caused this for sure!"....but I am sure someone who has been practicing and keeping a diary for a long time and objectively could confirm their own experiences.
"Also, do you see magick lasting into the 21st century? That is, staying close to its present form in regard to ceremony and tradition? Where do you see it going?"
Most defintley, sadly less so cerremonial, more Wiccan/Witchcraft, but many people who do their reading realise that hermeticism is involved, and Crowley, Regardie and the Golden Dawn in general are big names.
The OTO is growing larger and larger, it was dying in the Germer days, now there are more members and the books put out by names such as DuQuette allow for some notice to the general public. I believe even Wiccans speak highly of DuQuette and of Donald Michael Kraig.
As for Evolution, I see Typhonian Thelema as an evolution of Crowley's works, whether it is for the better or worse is another matter entirley! I have read little Grant, but have not really enjoyed what I have read.
Temple of Thelema is another example of the evolution of Thelema, it is another mstery school with, I assume, it's own lessons, teachings and rituals.
"And finally, do you also see magick as willed evolution in a very material sense to one's physical nature (as a directed technique of changing anatomy and physiology of humans)?"
I see the whole body as a computer, it acts logically and does interact when various things interplay with it, like running different programmes. If there was a way to manufacture and install a specific programme into the body, then yes I can see some sense in that.....whether or not humans over the years have been doing this is another matter entirely....we'll never know, we don't even know if Darwin or Lamarck are correct!
All we have are theories, and theories are annoying pesky things, especially when they cannot be confirmed! I usually stay a mile away from such discussions!
93, 93/93.
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93,
Hey thanks for having this discussion with me.
"I study psychology at university, the most interesting aspect is that based upon biology. It is truly amazing what our brains can do- the cases of people who have half their brain taken away and yet are still perfectly functioning, the brain rewires itself to cope and is most definitely like a computer which maintains itself.
When you look at the cells in the body and the organs, even more fascinating the organelles within a cell it is like a structured universe with it's own order. It further reaffirms the hermetic axiom of "As above so below".
Again all these things are controlled automatically, one may argue from the will to survive. "
I'm assuming you also think that brains can be rewired through a regimen? From the cell onward, I would say yes, they are definitely "automatic" - but they seem to behave with a "consciousness" all their own. I like your idea of calling it the will to survive. I think Schopenhauer was on the same page.
I like your example - especially in cells, or morphogenetic fields in biology, there seems to be a coordination to make an emergent function for the whole, not just the individual will. Like the element we call Spirit in occult teaching. Do you think this emergence function can be practiced? What are your thoughts on collective movement in occult schools? Do you think that it is moving in a specific direction?
Magical power is part and parcel to uniting with an energy that is larger than one's self alone. We begin to move in the same direction or vibration as the energy invoked - which I believe can be considered in the same vein as this emergence/morphogenetic field function that we see in cells.
@mark0987 said
"I would argue that magick definitely changes the self, psychologically, which in turn effects our behaviour and thus influences our environment."
Agreed. Recent evidence shows that it also changes the anatomy of our brain - which is the actual physical structure. Not just how it behaves psychologically. I think that this could be extended to evolving the brain in a specific direction. What do you think?
@mark0987 said
"Using visualisation, sitting in an asana, concentration etc. will all effect brain activity and fire neurons, as a result those portions of the brain may become more well defined and even expand physically- more pathways being created. Of course this occurs for any other behaviour as well. "
Yes, agreed. So what do you think happens when we work with these pathways of neural synaptic activity? Specifically in magick? Using the model that it increases activity in those areas, it follows that we are able to tap these magical archetypes at will and they grow stronger with use. It also follows that we can influence others with these archetypes in a controlled way (or be controlled by them through obsession, etc.)
What do you think about mirror neurons? Have you looked at these much? I think they can help explain the phenomena of influence on the outside sphere - especially if you allow for a factor/system of transmission that influences others that we can't record aptly as of yet. What do you think if you had to theorize for fun?
@mark0987 said
"I see the whole body as a computer, it acts logically and does interact when various things interplay with it, like running different programmes. If there was a way to manufacture and install a specific programme into the body, then yes I can see some sense in that.....whether or not humans over the years have been doing this is another matter entirely....we'll never know, we don't even know if Darwin or Lamarck are correct!"
I think so too. But these programs are driven by human will largely - the will to survive, the will to love, etc. We choose which programs we want to interact with (or we don't and go on autopilot). Darwin said all mutations happened by chance that were better suited, Lamarck said will was behind the adaptations because we used the functions over and over - it was a use/disuse thing. Just like neurons that fire together wire together, neurons that fire apart, wire apart. Lamarck offers a more sound theory to reconcile epigenetics, neuroplasticity, etc. But, they are both probably wrong in certain ways - just as Pythagoras was good at math but thought beans had souls.
Maybe they do and we're all wrong BEANS
@mark0987 said
"All we have are theories, and theories are annoying pesky things, especially when they cannot be confirmed! I usually stay a mile away from such discussions!"
Ha! I usually stay miles away from discussions, especially around these parts. But sometimes it feels like it's time to write. I appreciate you humoring me and theorizing for fun...
I always just think of it this way - everything is a theory and a workable model until new data comes along. Induction is important - theorizing about gravity leads to larger thoughts and measurements on the universe as a whole. Even though gravity is just the feminine principle of magnetism? I think it is important to stay skeptical, yet wonder and theorize and say who knows? at the end of the day. Theorizing about neuroplasticity finally uncovered some evidence because people began looking in that direction instead of considering the brain to be static...and we've gained a lot as a result.
I like this discussion. Thanks in advance for answering the questions above - I'm interested to hear your take from a psychological and personal experience POV.
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93,
"I'm assuming you also think that brains can be rewired through a regimen? From the cell onward, I would say yes, they are definitely "automatic" - but they seem to behave with a "consciousness" all their own. I like your idea of calling it the will to survive. I think Schopenhauer was on the same page.
I like your example - especially in cells, or morphogenetic fields in biology, there seems to be a coordination to make an emergent function for the whole, not just the individual will. Like the element we call Spirit in occult teaching. Do you think this emergence function can be practiced? What are your thoughts on collective movement in occult schools? Do you think that it is moving in a specific direction?"
Brains can be rewired through repetition and a regimen. One example of how the brain is rewired is in the case of phobias if one is to take the behaviourist approach. Continual arousal of fear in the presence of a certain stimulus will cause that stimulus to arouse fear over time. This obviously rewires the association pathways of the brain. The visual stimulus of the object of fear can arouse the fear centre in the brain such as the amygdala, when originally they did not.
Then therapy such as systematic desensitization can 'unwire' it also.
As for your second paragraph I am unsure what you mean by the emergence function being practiced and collective movement in occult schools....perhaps this is because I do not belong to an occult school!
"Agreed. Recent evidence shows that it also changes the anatomy of our brain - which is the actual physical structure. Not just how it behaves psychologically. I think that this could be extended to evolving the brain in a specific direction. What do you think?"
I agree, I believe the work of Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson seems to draw this conclusion. Espescially Leary's 8-Circuit model, it shows a theoretical model of how the brain,psychology and consciousness have changed throughout history.
" So what do you think happens when we work with these pathways of neural synaptic activity? Specifically in magick?"
We get better and better at these core skills of course, it becomes easier to do them. It will also become easier to slip in and out of higher states of consciousness. I don't limit consciousness to the brain, but would argue that consciousness must use the brain to interact with the physical world. Perhaps by making more pathways more consciousness can pass through and reside and more things can be experienced in every day life. Too many perhaps, I don't know.
"Using the model that it increases activity in those areas, it follows that we are able to tap these magical archetypes at will and they grow stronger with use. It also follows that we can influence others with these archetypes in a controlled way (or be controlled by them through obsession, etc.)"
Yes, I assume you are following the thought pattern that "The goetia are portions of the brain" sort of thinking. If this is so, then yes, with continued use of these portions of the brain they would eventually become stronger, we may become obsessed; but that is an individual thing.
I personally think, the brain is well equipped to interact with the world in which we live in at birth. But when it comes to spiritual matters, the normal human brain is outdated. It is like, our brains have Windows Vista, but to efficiently operate in spiritual matters we need to be running Windows 8.
Now perhaps the brain changes itself so it can manage to operate windows 8, or we merely force windows 8 upon the brain and let it struggle until it can cope.
"What do you think about mirror neurons? Have you looked at these much? I think they can help explain the phenomena of influence on the outside sphere - especially if you allow for a factor/system of transmission that influences others that we can't record aptly as of yet. What do you think if you had to theorize for fun?"
I have not looked at mirror neurons much, but I am familiar with the basic outline of what they do. It does explain how we effect the behaviours of others, so if magick changes some internal mechanism of our own, there is no reason why that could not change another behaviour, however it does not really work in all cases.
For example say someone does a ritual for money and it changes their behaviour towards money. Mirror neurons would not cause someone to give you money, rather they would cause the individual to react in the same way you are reacting i.e. trying to make money.
I don't know if you are familiar with Derren Brown, but I have seen him copy another persons actions exactly whilst sitting across from them in a cafe. He then causes them to fall asleep in order to hypnotise them. He starts by shifting his position at almost the same time, turning his newspaper pages at the same time- the other person starts to become more attuned to his own behaviour- the mirror neurons are in symphony with each other and so therefore are more ready to copy each other- except the person who is aware of this has the control.
I believe it was Reich who also used to sit in the same position as his patients in order to tune into how they were feeling and possibly thinking.
However mirror neurons can only cause another person to feel the same way or carry out a similar action. Like someone yawning causing another person to yawn. They do not explain magick being the cause of a particular effect.
93, 93/93.
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93,
Very thoughtful responses. Thank you.
@mark0987 said
"Brains can be rewired through repetition and a regimen. One example of how the brain is rewired is in the case of phobias if one is to take the behaviourist approach. Continual arousal of fear in the presence of a certain stimulus will cause that stimulus to arouse fear over time. This obviously rewires the association pathways of the brain. The visual stimulus of the object of fear can arouse the fear centre in the brain such as the amygdala, when originally they did not.
Then therapy such as systematic desensitization can 'unwire' it also."
Agreed. This is the basic premise that cellular and integrative neuroscience springboards from.
@mark0987 said
"As for your second paragraph I am unsure what you mean by the emergence function being practiced and collective movement in occult schools....perhaps this is because I do not belong to an occult school!
"Nah - I don't think anyone needs to belong to an occult school to understand what the practices are inducing. What I mean is that I believe this emergence function is the Next Step. I believe humanity is actually "wiring itself" together - and as this moves forward, new functions of brain are established that are connected in a way that mundane science is now struggling with. Sort of like the 8 circuit theory that you've brought up. I believe it would be number 8.
Does this sound plausible? Could this explain certain brain functions that are emerging now?
@mark0987 said
"We get better and better at these core skills of course, it becomes easier to do them. It will also become easier to slip in and out of higher states of consciousness. I don't limit consciousness to the brain, but would argue that consciousness must use the brain to interact with the physical world. Perhaps by making more pathways more consciousness can pass through and reside and more things can be experienced in every day life. Too many perhaps, I don't know."
I agree. I believe that consciousness needs to exist to experience the ego as well as the non-ego.
@mark0987 said
"Yes, I assume you are following the thought pattern that "The goetia are portions of the brain" sort of thinking. If this is so, then yes, with continued use of these portions of the brain they would eventually become stronger, we may become obsessed; but that is an individual thing.
"Well, I can look at it as "the goetia are portions of the brain" but I think that is stemming from an ego POV. A non-ego POV integrated with this could be stated "the goetia gives us a framework for certain energies to interact with portions of the brain." Of course consciousness definitely includes this process, but it doesn't follow that the cause stems from the individual brain solely or even* a priori*. It can be looked at from both a spiritual and a psychological model - it does not follow that either one is more correct since consciousness is difficult to reduce down to a sole cause. Would you agree or disagree?
@mark0987 said
"Now perhaps the brain changes itself so it can manage to operate windows 8, or we merely force windows 8 upon the brain and let it struggle until it can cope."
I think this is a good metaphor. I think we come aware of different brain functions and these can be explored under will, moving the brain in a specific direction to "grow" certain abilities/functions. I think we're on the same page here.
@mark0987 said
"I have not looked at mirror neurons much, but I am familiar with the basic outline of what they do. It does explain how we effect the behaviours of others, so if magick changes some internal mechanism of our own, there is no reason why that could not change another behaviour, however it does not really work in all cases."
Agreed. I think we have a long way to go before we can narrow down all the variables. I think it does follow that certain thoughtforms definitely influence another's thoughtforms in certain cases. Media is a perfect example. I don't think it is a one-for-one ratio. There are simply more effective means that doesn't necessarily translate to I want money therefore someone will give me money. A ritual could bring information or cause sympathetic vibrations that could possibly put a "stress" or a vibration on the outside environment. I think this model is just as plausible as confirmation bias. That's why experimentation and weighing the probability of the effect happening is important to avoid skewing the data to believe what we want to believe.
Have you used magick for this type of experimentation? Do you allow for ceremonial magick to be capable of producing results that are analogous to what is accepted by mundane science? If so, would you share an example?
@mark0987 said
"I don't know if you are familiar with Derren Brown, but I have seen him copy another persons actions exactly whilst sitting across from them in a cafe. He then causes them to fall asleep in order to hypnotise them. He starts by shifting his position at almost the same time, turning his newspaper pages at the same time- the other person starts to become more attuned to his own behaviour- the mirror neurons are in symphony with each other and so therefore are more ready to copy each other- except the person who is aware of this has the control.
I believe it was Reich who also used to sit in the same position as his patients in order to tune into how they were feeling and possibly thinking.
However mirror neurons can only cause another person to feel the same way or carry out a similar action. Like someone yawning causing another person to yawn. They do not explain magick being the cause of a particular effect.
"Never heard of Darren Brown - but his research seems interesting.
Reich was using an energy model is his working, not just mirroring other's actions. I believe his energy model has a lot of merit in some cases. It helps explain a lot of phenomenon that I have been able to recreate in practice and experimentation.
I think that mirror neurons don't necessarily cause anything. At this point, I think it can only be used as a localized phenomena that can correlate two behaviors. Based on my own research, and some research that I've witnessed according to other people's data, people don't have to witness visually an event to respond with alike thoughtforms (which can be translated to mirror neurons quite easily). What do you think?
Using magick, I have produced uncanny effects in others without them being aware that anything was happening - even without interfacing their sensorium (in the classic "5 senses" sensorium). I would never tell anyone to believe that though, just based on me saying it. They should conduct their own experimentation.
But, for instance, I have used a Mars invocation and raising that energy to stimulate some rather nasty dreams in someone and the results go way beyond coincidence - they were sleeping and, when they awoke, they broke out in intense sobbing, saying they had the worst dream of their life. This person was not prone to sleep disturbance in the slightest. This is really only one example...there are many others. And there are others that I know that have done the same thing. Do you put these in the category of ghost stories? Do you think that magick is not able to be a useful model for helping to explain some of the effects of these types of phenomenon that take place?
Crowley often speaks of disturbing the aura of another person - in some cases he believes it even results in death. Do you think Crowley was off his rocker when talking about this stuff?
I think that mirror neurons can help explain a localized correlation of action and subsequent phenomena, but I don't think it explains what happens between the subject and object/cause and effect accurately - we don't truly know how the information is transmitted, especially if it is more subtle than direct action and observation. What do you think?
Again, thanks for the thoughtful responses. I appreciate you throwing some theories out there for fun. I'm interested to hear if you'd care to comment on some personal theories that may not be able to be explained by mundane science as of yet. We could be skeptical all day long, and that is useful to thwart all sorts of new agey bullshit (which trust me I'm not a fan) - but coming up with possible explanations to explain both magick and psychology I think is also useful and fun at the same time.
Tying this back into True Will and evolution - I think that there is a collective mind that is growing together. And True Will can be applied to humanity as a whole and we are indeed evolving to be more connected in consciousness. On the material plane, we're conversing about these ideas on different sides of the world (I'm assuming you're in the UK) with lightning speed...and finding agreement on many points.
Personally, do you think that this 8 circuit model has credence? Do you think you've advanced personally in regard to this model by practicing magick?
Thanks again for the conversation! Cheers!
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"Nah - I don't think anyone needs to belong to an occult school to understand what the practices are inducing. What I mean is that I believe this emergence function is the Next Step. I believe humanity is actually "wiring itself" together - and as this moves forward, new functions of brain are established that are connected in a way that mundane science is now struggling with. Sort of like the 8 circuit theory that you've brought up. I believe it would be number 8.
Does this sound plausible? Could this explain certain brain functions that are emerging now? "
I think so, to a certain extent. I believe that Wilson's work on reality tunnels may have some relevance here. If we prescribe to only one possible belief i.e. kundalini does not exist, we limit ourselves in that little box. If we do not believe kundalini exists, chances are we will never experience it, nor set out to experience it.
However if we consider it does exist and strive to find out, chances are you will experience it.
It is the same with the brain. If humans are told something is impossible they will not try and do it anyway, they will sit at home and say the man on the news with degrees say this is not possible, so why bother trying?
They will never develop the unknown functions of the brain,, it is the reason why only a few people are born with the capability of experiencing all 8 circuits, they challenge what they are told and thus experience it and with their experience, if they share it others may follow and further harness these things.
Of course spiritual practices are one way and the more people do it, the more their brain structures will change and the more people they will inspire to also do it. I believe Crowley said something along the lines of an adept truly does inspire all they come into contact with, he makes the example of his 'magickal partners' uncovering hidden talents.
There are of course other ways to experience other states of consciousness.
I think that humanity are not simultaneously evolving together, rather more and more people are introducing new concepts to each other along with each individiaul growing independently, and we are evolving together via inspiration to do so from one another.
Expression is key to this, which is why Thelema is a great path. If you limit what you can experience to what you "know" (i.e. what your culture/society tells you) doesn't exist, you will never strive to develop in a new way and cause new developments....the word of sin truly is restriction.
" It can be looked at from both a spiritual and a psychological model - it does not follow that either one is more correct since consciousness is difficult to reduce down to a sole cause. Would you agree or disagree?
"I agree, again different reality tunnels. Why limit yourself to one possibility when you can indulge in several and benefit from each of them?
"Have you used magick for this type of experimentation? Do you allow for ceremonial magick to be capable of producing results that are analogous to what is accepted by mundane science? If so, would you share an example?
"A long time ago and very rarely. My magickal practice, for the most part, has been purely one based upon spirituality and expanding knowledge. I have probably used magick to attract money three times and that was a very long time ago and didn't involve ceremonial magick. I also did not keep a diary and so I cannot objectively give details.
I am very much so just starting out with my practices, I would say if a magician has kept an objective and tedious diary for years and has recorded various exercises and how long it took a result to manifest, and every exercise when a result did not manifest. Then one could say they have a chance of producing results which will be respected by science. However before doing so they must first define what a successful result is before setting out. E.g. wha is the time limit for a result to manifest, what counts as a result etc.
I would imagine a dedicated person could go through Crowley's diaries and do this....I am not a dedicated person. Crowley even held his hand up in his diaries and questioned a few results and I think that is a good thing to do. Continual success may indicate a good cause and effect relationship, however that does not mean that every effect stems from the magick you used.
"I'm interested to hear if you'd care to comment on some personal theories that may not be able to be explained by mundane science as of yet. We could be skeptical all day long, and that is useful to thwart all sorts of new agey bullshit (which trust me I'm not a fan) - but coming up with possible explanations to explain both magick and psychology I think is also useful and fun at the same time."
Of course, I don't mind adventuring in diverse reality tunnels! Thinking about things in different ways is helpful, I think mundane science limits itself in respect to it's different fields. Psychology does the same- Freud and Jung are laughed at because there is no, or very little, evidence for their 'whacky' theories, but I still think there is some relevance to be found in their works.
"Tying this back into True Will and evolution - I think that there is a collective mind that is growing together. And True Will can be applied to humanity as a whole and we are indeed evolving to be more connected in consciousness."
I agree, I believe a few people who are into the whole 'aeon of ma'at' idea believe that this collective, hive mind, idea will be available within reach in the next aeon. Of course I believe everyone is intrinsically connected, I think Wilson thought something similar, many people do these days. Love is the law, love under will after all.
I like to think of the neschamah in this case. I believe Lon DuQuette uses the example of a mother knowing her child is in danger in the middle of the night and waking up; just knowing something is wrong. This is most certainly a connection in consciousness, of course we are close to our family and friends, but perhaps one day this will branch out to all humans.
I am sure everyone has experience something similar to this. I have multiple times, mostly only with family, but also with close friends. I also know of other people who have known this invasion or merging of one experience of consciousness with another.
If all consciousness is connected, that means if every human was unihibited by false beliefs and by socialisation i.e. knew their true self and their true will, then every human would evolve together on a similar tangent.
That is what the idea of the aeon of horus is about, the first step is knowledge and conversation and the discovery and expression of the true self. Once we know ourselves we can then allow ourselves to get to know one another, which may be what the aeon of ma'at is about, but we will have to wait until we get there.
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Loving this read, guys. I'm stuck on my phone for the weekend or I would have thrown in my two cents by now. I'll see if I have anything new to add tomorrow when I'm back in front of a real keyboard.
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@Frater 639 said
"What are your opinions? Does ceremonial magic help shape our reality as well as others? How about yoga? How does this happen? What physical changes happen when practicing magick in your opinion? Do you as a magician evolve in a certain direction? If so, what is that? "
The current model I'm working under is that I'm actively introducing a non-ordinary symbolic language into my thought stream to force my brain/mind to break out of its rut of a tunnel-reality and begin working closer to full capacity. I don't yet know what "full capacity" means and I'm not really ready to even surmise. I take the records of those who have gone before as guideposts for how it has manifested in the past but acknowledge that my individual personality and life path will necessarily cause it to manifest in a different way for myself. The two poles of the explanation for all of this seem to be: either all of this is solely material brain function, chemical reactions locked within my cranium, or everything is interconnected and thus there is a natural connection between what I perceive to be happening and what is actually happening. Thus far, I've collected some data and a number of logical arguments for both of these alternatives, but I'm not ready to state an opinion one way or the other.
I'm also limited by only recently starting to actually practice magick. I'm beginning to realize that I might be in the minority in this online-occult-conglomeration coming, as I do, from a background pretty solidly on the atheist/materialist side of skeptical agnosticism. I'd developed a pretty strong appreciation for the power of yoga as a personal practice but had absolutely no trust that there was anything to magick, ceremonial or otherwise. Give me a few more years of testing out the machinery and I might have a more solid opinion for ya.
@Frater 639 said
"Does magick, in a personal practice, have an overarching influence on the world around you? Is there a certain direction that you find Thelemites or other spiritual groups gravitating toward collectively? What do you think the trajectory is? "
In my relatively limited interaction with Thelemic groups (~9months, give or take), my impression is that there isn't a point that they are collectively gravitating toward. Each of them has their own goals and their own group pride and, being Thelemites, individuals within the groups manifest that on a smaller octave. I'd say that the generalized re-birth of a mystical diaspora over the past century represents a trajectory towards a search for purpose, one that I think had been generally lost under the absolutist oppression of the catholic church and the materialist oppression of industrialization. With a majority of the world's population both literate and aware of the actual size of the globe for the first century in our species' existence, we are poised to individually and collectively really start asking the hard questions of why we're here and what it's all about. It seems to me that magick is one way to go about doing that.
@Frater 639 said
"Also, do you see magick lasting into the 21st century? That is, staying close to its present form in regard to ceremony and tradition? Where do you see it going?"
Yes. And no. I'd say there are certain streams/trajectories/currents that will do everything in their power to maintain the traditions for better or for worse. I'd say there are other streams/trajectories/currents that will realize the inner core and find ways to tread the path in more modern/post-modern/technologic/neurogenetic/psychedelic/interconnected ways, for better or for worse. I'd say that, between these two poles, there will be many intermediate paths, some more successful than others, some better suited to certain individuals, some to others. I have a sense of what type of path will suit me personally and which paths seem to me to be absolute exploitative malarky, but have no interest in limiting the options available to others in finding their own way to the Path. The more the better as far as I'm concerned.
The downside I see to all of this is that your standard domesticated primate seems to mistrust diversity. With too many options available, they figure that all of them must be in some way false and tend to lump them under the heading of "general hogwash" without good reason.
@Frater 639 said
"And finally, do you also see magick as willed evolution in a very material sense to one's physical nature (as a directed technique of changing the anatomy and physiology of humans)?"
Yes?
@Frater 639 said
"Thanks everyone in advance for participating!
"Thanks for the great prompt.
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@Frater 639 said
"
@mark0987 said
"I would argue that magick definitely changes the self, psychologically, which in turn effects our behaviour and thus influences our environment."Agreed. Recent evidence shows that it also changes the anatomy of our brain - which is the actual physical structure. Not just how it behaves psychologically. I think that this could be extended to evolving the brain in a specific direction. What do you think?"
Do you happen to have citations for that evidence? I love checking out original research.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
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@Frater 639 said
"
@mark0987 said
"I would argue that magick definitely changes the self, psychologically, which in turn effects our behaviour and thus influences our environment."Agreed. Recent evidence shows that it also changes the anatomy of our brain - which is the actual physical structure. Not just how it behaves psychologically. I think that this could be extended to evolving the brain in a specific direction. What do you think?"
Do you happen to have citations for that evidence? I love checking out original research."
TNTC but we can dissect this one. I had to copy and paste from a medical journal - I can give you the citation, but unless you have medical journal access, I'm afraid they'd be hard to come by. But here is a homerun for Alvaro Pascual-Leone out of the* Annual Review of Neuroscience, Vol. 28: 377-401* - effective change in accordance with will and proving the changes in the brain from IMAGINATION EXERCISES - absolutely astounding (excerpt):
*
Cajal (1904) predicted that with the acquisition of new skills the brain would change through rapid reinforcement of preestablished organic pathways and later formation of new pathways. We hypothesize that the first of these processes is in fact a necessary requirement for the development of the second. Formation of new pathways is possible only following initial reinforcement of preexistent connections. Therefore, the scope of possible plastic changes is defined by existing connections, which are the result of genetically controlled neural development and are ultimately different across individuals. Reinforcement of existing connections, on the other hand, is the consequence of environmental influences, afferent input, and efferent demand.These two steps of plasticity are illustrated by the following experiment (Pascual-Leone 1996, Pascual-Leone et al. 1995). Normal subjects were taught to perform with one hand a five-finger exercise on a piano keyboard connected via computer musical interface. The subjects were instructed to perform the sequence of finger movements fluently, without pauses, and without skipping any keys, while paying particular attention to keeping the interval between the individual key presses constant and the duration of each key press the same. A metronome gave a tempo of 60 beats per minutes for which the subjects were asked to aim, as they performed the exercise under auditory feedback. Subjects were studied on five consecutive days, and each day they had a two-hour practice session followed by a test. The test consisted of the execution of 20 repetitions of the five-finger exercise. The number of sequence errors decreased, and the duration, accuracy, and variability of the intervals between key pushes (as marked by the metronome beats) improved significantly over the course of the five days. Before the first practice session on the first day of the experiment and daily thereafter, we used focal transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) to map the motor cortical areas targeting long finger flexor and extensor muscles bilaterally. As the subjects' performance improved, the threshold for TMS activation of the finger flexor and extensor muscles decreased steadily. Even considering this change in threshold, the size of the cortical representation for both muscle groups increased significantly (Figure 1A). However, this increase could be demonstrated only when the cortical mapping studies were conducted following a 20- to 30-min rest period after the practice (and test) session (Pascual-Leone 1996). No such modulation in the cortical output maps was noted when maps were obtained before each daily practice session (Figure 1A).
Figure 1 - Changes in cortical output maps associated with learning a five-finger exercise on the piano (modified from Pascual-Leone 1996, Pascual-Leone et al. 1995). A: Cortical output maps for the finger flexors of the trained and the untrained hands of a representative subject (see text and Pascual-Leone et al. 1995 for details on mapping method). Note the marked changes of the output maps for the trained hand following practice and the lack of changes for the untrained hand. Note further the significant difference in cortical output maps for the trained hand after the practice sessions on days 3–5. B: Serial cortical output maps to finger flexors in a representative subject during five weeks of daily (Monday to Friday) practice of the five-finger exercise on the piano. Note that there are two distinct processes in action, one accounting for the rapid modulation of the maps from Mondays to Fridays and the other responsible for the slow and more discrete changes in Monday maps over time.
Average cortical output maps for the finger flexors of the trained hand in subjects undergoing daily physical versus mental practice. Note the similarity in output maps with either form of practice.Remarkably, mental practice resulted in a similar reorganization of the motor outputs to the one observed in the group of subjects that physically practiced the movements (Figure 1C). Mental simulation of movements activates some of the same central neural structures required for the performance of the actual movements (Roland et al. 1987, Decety & Ingvar 1990). In doing so, mental practice alone may be sufficient to promote the plastic modulation of neural circuits placing the subjects at an advantage for faster skill learning with minimal physical practice, presumably by making the reinforcement of existing connections easier and perhaps speeding up the process of subsequent sprouting and consolidating of memories.
Once near-perfect level of performance was reached at the end of a week of daily practice, subjects were randomized into two groups (Figure 1B). Group 1 continued daily practice of the same piano exercise during the following four weeks. Group 2 stopped practicing. During the four weeks of follow-up, cortical output maps for finger flexor and extensor muscles were obtained in all subjects on Mondays (before the first practice session of that week in group 1), and on Fridays (after the last practice session for the week in group 1). In the group that continued practicing (group 1), the cortical output maps obtained on Fridays showed an initial peak and eventually a slow decrease in size despite continued performance improvement. On the other hand, the maps obtained on Mondays, before the practice session and following the weekend rest, showed a small change from baseline with a tendency to increase in size over the course of the study. In group 2, the maps returned to baseline after the first week of follow-up and remained stable thereafter.
This experiment reveals that acquisition of the necessary motor skills to perform a five-finger movement exercise correctly is associated with reorganization in the cortical motor outputs to the muscles involved in the task. The rapid time course in the initial modulation of the motor outputs, by which a certain region of motor cortex can reversibly increase its influence on a motoneuron pool, is most compatible with the unmasking of previously existing connections (Jacobs & Donoghue 1991, Sanes et al. 1992). Supporting this notion, the initial changes are quite transient: demonstrable after practice, but returning to baseline after a weekend rest. As the task becomes overlearned over the course of five weeks, the pattern of cortical activation for optimal task performance changes as other neural structures take a more leading role in task performance. We suggest that flexible, short-term modulation of existing pathways represents a first and necessary step leading up to longer-term structural changes in the intracortical and subcortical networks as skills become overlearned and automatic. A growing number of neuroimaging studies have suggested a similar two-step process (Seitz et al. 1990; Grafton et al. 1992; Jenkins et al. 1994; Karni et al. 1995, 1998).*
My Bold. Compare this with Chap. 32 of the BOL, but with the twist that we are changing the brain's anatomy when we "get better at something." Not too long ago, the brain was considered static with one-for-one point-to-point matrices between motor and brain responses.
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@mark0987 said
"I agree, I believe the work of Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson seems to draw this conclusion. Espescially Leary's 8-Circuit model, it shows a theoretical model of how the brain,psychology and consciousness have changed throughout history.
" So what do you think happens when we work with these pathways of neural synaptic activity? Specifically in magick?"
We get better and better at these core skills of course, it becomes easier to do them. It will also become easier to slip in and out of higher states of consciousness. I don't limit consciousness to the brain, but would argue that consciousness must use the brain to interact with the physical world. Perhaps by making more pathways more consciousness can pass through and reside and more things can be experienced in every day life. Too many perhaps, I don't know.
"Using the model that it increases activity in those areas, it follows that we are able to tap these magical archetypes at will and they grow stronger with use. It also follows that we can influence others with these archetypes in a controlled way (or be controlled by them through obsession, etc.)"
Yes, I assume you are following the thought pattern that "The goetia are portions of the brain" sort of thinking. If this is so, then yes, with continued use of these portions of the brain they would eventually become stronger, we may become obsessed; but that is an individual thing.
I personally think, the brain is well equipped to interact with the world in which we live in at birth. But when it comes to spiritual matters, the normal human brain is outdated. It is like, our brains have Windows Vista, but to efficiently operate in spiritual matters we need to be running Windows 8.
Now perhaps the brain changes itself so it can manage to operate windows 8, or we merely force windows 8 upon the brain and let it struggle until it can cope."
Love this. I've been working with a model recently that seems to parallel this somewhat. The 8-circuit model gives us the 4 upper circuits which reflect aspects of the 4 lower circuits that we already know which gives us a sort-of language with which to talk about them. Your OS analogy is similar. We know that there is going to be a Windows 9 and a Windows 12 (though they might have different names) and we can use our current knowledge of existent operating systems to have a sort-of language with which to predict how they'll work but, in reality... we're just guessing until they actually manifest.
Similarly, in looking at the history of discoveries in physics, we see a repeating pattern of individuals looking at the world as currently understood, finding a hole, and using current language to attempt to analogize forward towards what will be discovered about that hole in the future. Faraday saw that his theory of electro-magnetism rested on waves and that light was posited as waves and put the two together, using a procedure that wasn't completely understood for another 100 years, to discover that light could be manipulated by electro-magnetism and that they were therefore interrelated. A similar pattern is seen in the discovery of the Higgs boson. The model required mass but no one had a good explanation for where mass resides. Higgs posited a sub-atomic particle along the lines of the other sub-atomic particles which created charge, spin, and attraction. 40 years later, the particle was finally found, filling out the theory.
In the case of consciousness, I expect something similar to happen. There is a big hole right now in the hard questions of consciousness. Logic suggests that consciousness couldn't have been created ex nihilo at some point after the creation of universe. It's either always been here or it's a fiction. Both of those options are kind of mind-blowing. One suggests that we are all just automatons following a path of pre-destined cause and effect and this thing we perceive as "consciousness" is nothing more than a complex chemical reaction: a fluke of probability. The other suggests that this thing called consciousness is eternal and omnipresent but exists in some way that we have not yet been able to directly measure; that everything we measure in the physical universe follows the laws of physics like clockwork but that this other thing, consciousness, is able to perturb those laws adding complexity and diversity.
I favor the eternal version but I acknowledge that there isn't any hard evidence yet to raise it beyond the level of hypothesis. However, I do see there being a path towards testing it by finding the correct analogy between consciousness and mass, or energy, or gravity, or wavicles, or Bell's Theorem, or any of the other myriad ways we humans have focused our collective will towards understanding reality and finding the physical truths underlying what, till then, seemed like miraculous invisible forces. This path of discovery has, I think, been the underlying guidance of our civilization's evolution and I definitely think that, in the realm of consciousness, we the mind-experimenters are going to be a strong force towards the next step.
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@Frater 639 said
"Cajal (1904) predicted that with the acquisition of new skills the brain would change through rapid reinforcement of preestablished organic pathways and later formation of new pathways."
Please tell me this was published in April
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@mark0987 said
"I think so, to a certain extent. I believe that Wilson's work on reality tunnels may have some relevance here. If we prescribe to only one possible belief i.e. kundalini does not exist, we limit ourselves in that little box. If we do not believe kundalini exists, chances are we will never experience it, nor set out to experience it.
However if we consider it does exist and strive to find out, chances are you will experience it.
It is the same with the brain. If humans are told something is impossible they will not try and do it anyway, they will sit at home and say the man on the news with degrees say this is not possible, so why bother trying?"
Agreed. Trust me, I work for one of the world's most prominent biomedical universities. Sometimes degrees/academia is not too encouraging of non-profitable research. They can act as maintainers of the status quo, especially if it threatens investments in relation to their economic resources (donors and grant providers).
@mark0987 said
"Of course spiritual practices are one way and the more people do it, the more their brain structures will change and the more people they will inspire to also do it. I believe Crowley said something along the lines of an adept truly does inspire all they come into contact with, he makes the example of his 'magical partners' uncovering hidden talents."
I agree with this. I think this goes beyond language to something more subtle. I would go further to say that we can't perceive the information fields all the time that may be influencing us. A little further, I would say learning how to work with the so-called "kundalini" makes one more efficient in being able to project this "information field."
@mark0987 said
"I think that humanity are not simultaneously evolving together, rather more and more people are introducing new concepts to each other along with each individiaul growing independently, and we are evolving together via inspiration to do so from one another."
Agreed. There is the nucleus and the electron - one is the stability, the other is responsible for movement and attraction. I look at this as the masses and the people that seem to be one step ahead, leading the way through evolution.
@mark0987 said
"Expression is key to this, which is why Thelema is a great path. If you limit what you can experience to what you "know" (i.e. what your culture/society tells you) doesn't exist, you will never strive to develop in a new way and cause new developments....the word of sin truly is restriction."
Yes. And this expression seems to be that people want to "connect" in a more collective way. Just look at internet use and social media. It seems to me that this is the budding of something that will emerge more organically as time goes on.
@mark0987 said
"I am very much so just starting out with my practices, I would say if a magician has kept an objective and tedious diary for years and has recorded various exercises and how long it took a result to manifest, and every exercise when a result did not manifest. Then one could say they have a chance of producing results which will be respected by science. However before doing so they must first define what a successful result is before setting out. E.g. wha is the time limit for a result to manifest, what counts as a result etc."
That's how every great discovery starts - and in the process you learn to know yourself! Win-win.
"I like to think of the neschamah in this case. I believe Lon DuQuette uses the example of a mother knowing her child is in danger in the middle of the night and waking up; just knowing something is wrong. This is most certainly a connection in consciousness, of course we are close to our family and friends, but perhaps one day this will branch out to all humans.
"I used to think of Neschamah as being the same as psychic phenomena. As practice increased, I learned to differentiate between the two - Neschamah being more of an egregoric record/resource of information and psychic phenomena being between two parties. Both come from what is seemingly an abstract or non-logical transmission and difficult to differentiate at first - practicing Asana and Dharana made it easier to get a handle on what was inside or outside my "circle," and astral work helped me to differentiate what was personality instrusion, or possibly something else...
The main thing is to practice shifting the consciousness. Much of the A.'.A.'. training revolves around how to get this "knack" and be efficient about it - this teaches one about the layers of their own mind and the different functions it is capable of - and what modes it is capable of reaching.
Relating to the "adept influencing others" that we were talking about above, I believe interconnectedness is becoming more apparent, and magicians especially push this envelope. As magicians become more sensitive to other energies, they can also become more influenced by other energies - psychologically this can be explained by bad behaviors increase along with good ones, but that's just too good/evil for me.
In any event, I think most people have had this experience of non-logical "information download" from the people that they are close to, like from their family, friends, etc. - which can be a blessing or a curse, very subtle or extremely overt, and the nature of these energies can depend on the company you keep - especially sexual partners, close friends and family members, etc.
As I alluded to earlier, I think that magicians can be especially prone to these "invasive" ideas if they don't take care of their own aura, thoughtforms, "circle," or whatever term you care to use. They seem to influence and can be influenced as their projection and reception strength increases, which starts to be developed as early as 0=0 in the A.'.A.'. System.
Again, thanks again for the fun conversation. I really appreciate the thoughtful answers.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"
@Frater 639 said
"Cajal (1904) predicted that with the acquisition of new skills the brain would change through rapid reinforcement of preestablished organic pathways and later formation of new pathways."Please tell me this was published in April
"Hahaha! Probably.
Give me a few before I respond to your post. Awesome points in there - I just have a lot going on today and I want to give it the attention it deserves. Thanks for jumping in.
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No hurry. I'm slammed at the moment as well. Long leisurely well-thought out conversations are much more useful (imho) that immediate fast-track responses.
At any rate, your cross-reference to The Book of Lies is going to keep me occupied falling down that rabbit hole for awhile so take your time.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"The current model I'm working under is that I'm actively introducing a non-ordinary symbolic language into my thought stream to force my brain/mind to break out of its rut of a tunnel-reality and begin working closer to full capacity."
Would you care to share this or perhaps get a bit more detailed? I know it may be personal - but I'd be happy to share personal methods that I use as a quid pro quo. I feel like it may be beneficial to someone out there who may be framing questions and/or techniques the same way...
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"The two poles of the explanation for all of this seem to be: either all of this is solely material brain function, chemical reactions locked within my cranium, or everything is interconnected and thus there is a natural connection between what I perceive to be happening and what is actually happening. Thus far, I've collected some data and a number of logical arguments for both of these alternatives, but I'm not ready to state an opinion one way or the other. "
Do you think these are exclusive or are they two sides of the same coin and necessary to observation? I don't think it is solely either one of them. I think it is the particle and wave, also relatable if you're 1st person or 3rd person, if that makes sense.
For a super crude analogy, if I'm traveling along the equator, I'm "in the equator" - my perception is that I'm moving in a line. If I observe the equator from afar, I'm seeing a circle. I see a duality - something observing another or being united with something else (like particle and wave theory). But both are related. I think of The Fool and The Magus as explanations of reality, which rule the two distinct modes of consciousness (I guess we could also relate it to Dharana and Samadhi, or perhaps evocation and invocation), yet still it is all consciousness. This is the 2=0 equation that Crowley likes to tout (in MWT Chap. 5) and it explains relativity; also, what Einstein said in regard to wave/particle theory applies to consciousness methinks:
"It seems as though we must use sometimes the one theory and sometimes the other, while at times we may use either. We are faced with a new kind of difficulty. We have two contradictory pictures of reality; separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do".
What do you think about this? Can it apply to modes of viewing consciousness?
In my opinion, the basic Venn diagram is all that really exists. Sphere A (being Person/Group 1) reality, Sphere B (being Person/Group 2) reality, and Sphere C (being shared reality of People/Groups 1 and 2) - and of course this can extend to many consciousnesses indefinitely to create many interconnected reality spheres or intersubjectivity. It is all very plastic. It is also easily related to YHV - with the final "H" as being the aggregate which is the current stage of evolution...
And, on the surface, we seem to have many measurements based in the physical plane that we can all agree on. When we look closer we understand that material isn't so material at all, we are just "zoomed out" enough to call a collection of molecules "a chair," a "bed," etc. The material plane seems to be the spectrum that most humans, in this stage of evolution, are comfortable with agreeing on and comparing their observations with. But, there is always some disagreement, based on POV. The more abstract we get and the further we get from this spectrum, the further we get into disagreement - and, even though energy is a fundamental and exists in all planes, it is still difficult for many to just understand it as more abstract when viewing it in certain ways - leading to disagreements largely based on ego and POV.
The points of contention (forgive the pun) is always that an energy in my reality sphere, relating to something similar in your reality sphere, may look completely different based on one's particular ego-interface with that particular energy, given the course of one's lifetime - which is why "growing" the function of observation to open up and identify energy "astrally" and using symbolism is important (which is using a tool of "non-linear" observation that is somehow connecting two realities through consciousness, but not done through classical observation). This is what Crowley is trying to explain in various places (my bold):
*But there are "planes" proper to every clairvoyant who explores the Astral Light without prejudice; in such case, things assume the form of his own mind, and his perception will be clear in proportion to his personal purity.
[...]
Thus, in low grades of initiation, dogmatic quarrels are inflamed by astral experience; *
And here:
*Now this fine body perceives a universe which we do not ordinarily perceive. It does not necessarily perceive the universe which we do normally perceive, so although in this body I can pass through the roof, it does not follow that I shall be able to tell what the weather is like. I might do so, or I might not: but if I could not, it would not prove that I was deceiving myself in supposing that I had passed through the roof. This body, which is called by various authors the Astral double, body of Light, body of fire, body of desire, fine body, scin-laeca and numberless other names is naturally fitted to perceive objects of its own class ... in particular, the phantoms of the astral plane.
There is some sort of vague and indeterminate relation between the Astrals and the Materials; and it is possible, with great experience, to deduce facts about material things from the astral aspect which they present to the eyes of the Body of Light.
This is because there is a certain necessary correspondence between planes; as in the case of an Anglo-Indian's liver and this temper. The relation appears "vague and indeterminate" only in so far as one happens to be ignorant of the laws which state the case. The situation is analogous to that of the chemist before the discovery of the law of "Combining Weights", etc.*
This astral plane is so varied and so changeable that several clairvoyants looking at the same thing might give totally different accounts of what they saw; yet they might each make correct deductions. In looking at a man the first clairvoyant might say: "The lines of force are all drooping"; the second: "It seems all dirty and spotty"; a third; "The Aura looks very ragged." Yet all might agree in deducing that the man was in ill-health. In any case all such deductions are rather unreliable. One must be a highly skilled man before one can trust one's vision. A great many people think that they are extremely good at the business, when in fact they have only made some occasional shrewd guesses (which they naturally remember) in the course of hundreds of forgotten failures.
I guess the reason why I went off on this tangent (I really have no clue why actually) is because people can both sense similar qualities of something without observing the same thing physically, in a very tangible way, and it can be measured - I'm talking about the astral here. There is a middle ground where we can relate these energies tangibly - and this is a relatively common practice after a certain skill level is acquired astrally.
I actually think this is only part of the Next Step in evolution and the realizing of collective True Will. We can share consciousness, yet not all things appear the same way to all collectively - yes, consciousness is subjective and all "in the cranium." Yet, if we can agree on certain details, we are "interconnected" in consciousness, and this is the intersubjectivity described by Crowley in MWT Chap. 5 and a Venn diagram, and relatable to Einstein's observations on relativity. Do you see this as being relatable? What do you think?
It is almost as if our describing physical details are in a realm that means something to us underneath the rational mind, yet we find these symbols in common - they exist in two planes at once depending on "where we are viewing from." I like to use this model as to reconcile connectivity of consciousness, the non-ego and the ego, and the subsequent shifts in POV.
Also, switching these modes at will are part and parcel to the invocations (including the invocations of the HGA). See MTP Part III Chap. XV.
I think that being able to switch back and forth between ego and non-ego will be a primary part of evolution as we move forward - with EMPATHY - in a way that is very tangible, and not just in thought - plastic, yet can be felt physically, depending on the software (and revisions/updates) running on the computer. Mirror neurons are part of being able to identify this process.
How do you feel when it comes to these "two ways" of viewing consciousness concurrently? Does this seem acceptable? Also, maybe check out the BOT for the Fool and the Magus. I think that it outlines these two POVs very well. At least, that's part of the metaphor I get from it...
I'm glad that you liked the Chap. 32 BOL reference. Check out Chap. 39 - Crowley explains the new function of brain that is developed from these practices...
And thanks again - I apologize for the tangent...I kind of went down the wormhole with this one...
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@Frater 639 said
"Would you care to share this or perhaps get a bit more detailed? I know it may be personal - but I'd be happy to share personal methods that I use as a quid pro quo. I feel like it may be beneficial to someone out there who may be framing questions and/or techniques the same way..."
Well, as I said, my actual practice of magick is relatively new. I've been reading voraciously for years but had always chalked up any reported powers/results to exaggeration, fantasy, or feebleness of mind. Nevertheless, the interest never went away. In discovering Scientific Illuminism, I found a method that spoke directly to my analytical side while also offering a definite framework for my naturally un-disciplined side to follow.
Currently, I'm in the process of rewiring my previous mental and physical yoga practices towards the baseline fundamentals necessitated by Libri E & O. Extending the length of complete bodily stillness, adding in an unchanging mantra... all the things that are boring as hell but necessary to up my own self-discipline in prep for more advanced work. I believe it was gurugeorge on some thread or other that either coined or referenced the term "body-off" and that's the term that's been sticking with me. Getting the monkey-puppet to the point where it doesn't have to constantly relay to me every sensation it's receiving. Boring the senses so that they go to sleep and leave the mind awake to check itself out.
As to the "non-ordinary symbolic language", I'm working on transitioning from an intellectual understanding of the occult symbolism with which I've become very familiar over the past (mumble-mumble) years to an intuitional integration of them into the workings of my mind. Actively attempting to let go of the "golden snake = phallos" type of symbol-reading while encouraging the full-body sensory experience of imagining myself as a golden flying serpent (or whatever other symbol-idea I happen to be focusing on that day). The working hypothesis is that by encouraging my mind to break out of standard consensus reality and get it playing in any way it sees fit, I'll be able to unlock some/all of the doors that I and society have locked around me. I don't know yet what's on the other side of those doors nor do I really want to speculate at this point. It's not that I don't have a range of possibilities lined up, it's that I know myself to fall too easily into intellectualization and part of this current practice is allowing that particular power of the sphinx to take a rest. To extend that metaphor, I'm pushing "To Dare" into the realms of what I used "To Know" was impossible so that, when I start "To Will", I won't be hampered by misplaced and unfounded doubt.
Ringing this back around to the original topic of the thread, I'd say I also came to Thelema and True Will in a way that seems a mirror image of most I've interacted with in that I already had finding my TW pretty much handled by the time I discovered there was a specific name for it and a system surrounding it. Since discovering Thelema, it's undergone some adjustments (evolution?) but the core drive and direction that I discovered a bunch of years ago still holds true. Picking up a magical practice now is very much in line with it which has helped in squashing some of those voices in the back of my mind that insist I'm wasting my time and chasing after rainbows and every other bit of "common sense" that prevent each and every one of us from truly engaging with the universe around us.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"I've been reading voraciously for years but had always chalked up any reported powers/results to exaggeration, fantasy, or feebleness of mind. "
I came from a very analytic view of philosophy - along the lines of the skeptical school as well. We would probably have shared the same views. I originally started practicing magick and using the Tarot to "prove it all wrong."
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"Currently, I'm in the process of rewiring my previous mental and physical yoga practices towards the baseline fundamentals necessitated by Libri E & O."
Cool. Stillness of mind is so helpful when tackling Liber O. A good teacher will try to suggest that a student will need to have an intermediate success level in asana proper practice, pranayama, etc. before attempting Liber O parts 4, 5 and 6 - otherwise, a lot of mental masturbation seems to ensue in many cases.
Before entering upon any of these practices, the student should be in good health, and have attained a fair mastery of Asana, Pranayama and Dharana.
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"I believe it was gurugeorge on some thread or other that either coined or referenced the term "body-off" and that's the term that's been sticking with me."
Great advice.
"As to the "non-ordinary symbolic language", I'm working on transitioning from an intellectual understanding of the occult symbolism with which I've become very familiar over the past (mumble-mumble) years to an intuitional integration of them into the workings of my mind. Actively attempting to let go of the "golden snake = phallos" type of symbol-reading while encouraging the full-body sensory experience of imagining myself as a golden flying serpent (or whatever other symbol-idea I happen to be focusing on that day). The working hypothesis is that by encouraging my mind to break out of standard consensus reality and get it playing in any way it sees fit, I'll be able to unlock some/all of the doors that I and society have locked around me. I don't know yet what's on the other side of those doors nor do I really want to speculate at this point"
This is cool. If I could offer a suggestion, it would be to look at Liber O parts 1-3 and pay special attention as to why the Instruction goes over the importance of the correspondences so much - to reiterate that there are symbols already made in the western school. The symbology is already there, why recreate it? And, as you know, it is also weaved through the tarot, qabalah, rituals, etc. if you have the "classic" symbols already anchored into your psychology, the next step is to raise energized enthusiasm when operating in ritual or with godforms. Do you work with part 4 of Liber O yet?
Here** the key is energized enthusiasm **after the rituals are memorized and can be done automatically; that is, getting excited about the ritual in a special way to where you are "in a zone" without having to intellectualize.
Scientifically, I believe this is engaging the amygdala, the adrenaline system, basal ganglia, etc. to attach to certain thoughtforms. At this point, we are changing our brain under will. And it is this training that anchors how to be in control of shifting our consciousness, moods, ideas, archetypes, etc. through excitement.
I leaned very much into the intellectual sides of things when starting out, like I said - so this was the part of magick which would balance out the intellect for me. It would be controlling the "passion" mechanism. Consider the Mars energy being introduced to Hod, and the intellectual Tower crumbling on its way to the passion of Venus, for a qabalistic analogy.
Preparation with "body-off" is important to block all extraneous thought that would distract from one-pointed concentration when engaging this enthusiasm e.g. makes the mechanism more efficient. Engaging the part of the psychology that works when using Bhakti yoga gives us the chemicals that promote new and stronger synapse growth - e.g. creates the channels/controls for this new state of love (attachment) under will (choice).
I don't believe this is the "end goal" of magick, but it is a necessary step. But, then again, there are many ways of interacting with the world around us with more clarity, like you mention below...
Again, I think there are many other facets of magick. I tend to disagree with the notion that magick is strictly a self-help tool that centers around a materialist/psychological model. There are many other facets that are quite frankly unexplanable with one limited POV. In short, there are some analogous phenomenon and evidence of Others in my experience and also with plenty of other people that I know - and they happen to be staunch skeptics like myself! Anyway, to get to a broader spectrum of "two-way communication," a certain level of concentration needs to be acquired through training. Maybe, one day, it will be more organic and we won't need to train so much...
I bring this up to outline again that I think this is where we are evolving - this desire for communication and learning something truly new from the "universe around us" is an intrinsic part of the TW for all. Do you agree with this?
@Gnosomai Emauton said
" Picking up a magical practice now is very much in line with it which has helped in squashing some of those voices in the back of my mind that insist I'm wasting my time and chasing after rainbows and every other bit of "common sense" that prevent each and every one of us from truly engaging with the universe around us."
Awesome! I love this! Wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.
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@Frater 639 said
"This is cool. If I could offer a suggestion, it would be to look at Liber O parts 1-3 and pay special attention as to why the Instruction goes over the importance of the correspondences so much - to reiterate that there are symbols already made in the western school. The symbology is already there, why recreate it? And, as you know, it is also weaved through the tarot, qabalah, rituals, etc. if you have the "classic" symbols already anchored into your psychology, the next step is to raise energized enthusiasm when operating in ritual or with godforms. Do you work with part 4 of Liber O yet?"
Pentagram yes, hexagram no. For parts 1-3, that's actually exactly what I'm working through at the moment. "The symbology is already there, why create it?" describes exactly the conversation that one side of my mind has been having with the other. I think they've finally come to terms with each other in the past few months and are ready to start working together.
@Frater 639 said
"I don't believe this is the "end goal" of magick, but it is a necessary step. But, then again, there are many ways of interacting with the world around us with more clarity, like you mention below...
Again, I think there are many other facets of magick. I tend to disagree with the notion that magick is strictly a self-help tool that centers around a materialist/psychological model. There are many other facets that are quite frankly unexplanable with one limited POV. In short, there are some analogous phenomenon and evidence of Others in my experience and also with plenty of other people that I know - and they happen to be staunch skeptics like myself! Anyway, to get to a broader spectrum of "two-way communication," a certain level of concentration needs to be acquired through training. Maybe, one day, it will be more organic and we won't need to train so much...
I bring this up to outline again that I think this is where we are evolving - this desire for communication and learning something truly new from the "universe around us" is an intrinsic part of the TW for all. Do you agree with this?"
Yep. This is the core of the conversation that I was attempting to have with our two recently departed fratres. It finally hit the point where I realized that it draining a lot of focus and distracting from my own work so I finally just turned the two of them off, but I think the core of our differences could be found in my own work in all of this as "process" and their need to see "results" so that they could "debunk" them. This stuff that we do is experimental, and unknown in a lot of ways, and not necessarily quantifiable in the ways that, say, a shopping list is. That doesn't necessarily make it un-real, though. Nor does it necessarily make it real. It is an undiscovered country ready to explore. There's no reason to expect it should look and behave exactly like suburban Cleveland. Or like Middle-Earth. It is its own thing.
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93,
Sorry I was away for so long. Just saw this!
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"
@Frater 639 said
"This is cool. If I could offer a suggestion, it would be to look at Liber O parts 1-3 and pay special attention as to why the Instruction goes over the importance of the correspondences so much - to reiterate that there are symbols already made in the western school. The symbology is already there, why recreate it? And, as you know, it is also weaved through the tarot, qabalah, rituals, etc. if you have the "classic" symbols already anchored into your psychology, the next step is to raise energized enthusiasm when operating in ritual or with godforms. Do you work with part 4 of Liber O yet?"Pentagram yes, hexagram no. For parts 1-3, that's actually exactly what I'm working through at the moment. "The symbology is already there, why create it?" describes exactly the conversation that one side of my mind has been having with the other. I think they've finally come to terms with each other in the past few months and are ready to start working together."
Awesome. How's the progress going?
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"
@Frater 639 said
"I don't believe this is the "end goal" of magick, but it is a necessary step. But, then again, there are many ways of interacting with the world around us with more clarity, like you mention below...Again, I think there are many other facets of magick. I tend to disagree with the notion that magick is strictly a self-help tool that centers around a materialist/psychological model. There are many other facets that are quite frankly unexplanable with one limited POV. In short, there are some analogous phenomenon and evidence of Others in my experience and also with plenty of other people that I know - and they happen to be staunch skeptics like myself! Anyway, to get to a broader spectrum of "two-way communication," a certain level of concentration needs to be acquired through training. Maybe, one day, it will be more organic and we won't need to train so much...
I bring this up to outline again that I think this is where we are evolving - this desire for communication and learning something truly new from the "universe around us" is an intrinsic part of the TW for all. Do you agree with this?"
Yep. This is the core of the conversation that I was attempting to have with our two recently departed fratres. It finally hit the point where I realized that it draining a lot of focus and distracting from my own work so I finally just turned the two of them off, but I think the core of our differences could be found in my own work in all of this as "process" and their need to see "results" so that they could "debunk" them. This stuff that we do is experimental, and unknown in a lot of ways, and not necessarily quantifiable in the ways that, say, a shopping list is. That doesn't necessarily make it un-real, though. Nor does it necessarily make it real. It is an undiscovered country ready to explore. There's no reason to expect it should look and behave exactly like suburban Cleveland. Or like Middle-Earth. It is its own thing."
I agree. I think the two mostly materialist POVs from those dudes were not so startling because they were intrisically incorrect (as if there is such a thing in perspective, other than falsely concluding one has ALL of the variables of phenomena at their disposal, given their limited data-collection technology - usually just crimes of "omission" and mostly "confusion"), but that they were so ruled by a singular belief system/theory of the universe. They allowed a set of existing, external "scientific" rules dictate their judgment, largely only the rules that readily interfaces their perception, based on 5 senses - simply because the classical 5 senses are the only ones with overwhelming evidence supporting the "scientific" models built around these senses, and the only ones MOSTLY measurable at this time.
It is like someone believing that oxygen didn't exist until a PPM meter could prove it.
It is an interesting world view to be completely ruled by skepticism. And, ultimately, it can be a crutch; a herd or a slave belief, because the belief chooses the magician, rather than the balance of the magician, who uses belief as a tool, adaptable to the situation at hand. The forces involved in reason are always twain and should be able to crush a universe at will, so that naught remains. No relation of perspectives and combining of opposites and one becomes a slave to reason. Some selections from Chapter 31 from the Liber 333:
"IT does THAT one thing which we must express by two things neither of which possesses any rational meaning.
For all these ideas express Relation; and IT, comprehending all Relation is ITS simplicity, is out of all Relation even with ITSELF.
Strain forth thine Intelligence, O man, O worthy one, O chosen of IT, to apprehend the discourse of THE MASTER; for thus thy reason shall at last break down, as the fetter is struck from a slave's throat.
This chapter should be compared with Chapter 11; that method of destroying the reason by formulating contradictions is definitely inculcated.
The idea is that, by forcing the mind to follow, and as far as possible to realise, the language of Beyond the Abyss, the student will succeed in bringing his reason under control.
As soon as the reason is vanquished, the garotte is removed; then the influence of the supernals (Kether, Chokmah, Binah), no longer inhibited by Daath, can descend upon Tiphareth, where the human will is situated, and flood it with the ineffable light."
Anyway, the materialist only POV brings to mind this quote from the BOT:
@Book of Thoth said
"The Greeks of old were aware that by rubbing amber (which they called Electron) upon silk, the amber acquired the power of attracting to itself light objects such as small pieces of paper. But there they stopped. Their science was hoodwinked by theological ~ and philosophical theories of the a priori type. It was well over 2,000 years before this phenomenon was correlated with other electrical phenomena. The idea of Measurement was hardly known to anyone but mathematicians like Archimedes, and astronomers. The foundations of Science, as it is understood to-day, were hardly laid at all 200 years ago. There was an immense amount of knowledge; but it was nearly all qualitative. The classification of phenomena depended chiefly upon poetic analogies. The doctrines of "correspondences" and signatures" were based upon fanciful resemblances. Cornelius Agrippa wrote of the "antipathy" between a Dolphin and a Whirlpool. If a meretrix sat under an olive tree, it would bear no more fruit. If anything looked like something else, it partook in some mysterious way of its qualities.
This sounds to-day to many people mere superstitious ignorance and nonsense; but it is not altogether so. The old system of classification was sometimes good and sometimes bad, as far as it went. But in no case did it go very far. The natural ingenuity of their natural philosophers did compensate very largely for the weakness of their theory; and it did ultimately lead them (especially through Alchemy, where they were forced by the nature of the work to add real to their ideal observation) to introduce the idea of Measure. Modern Science, intoxicated by the practical success which attended this innovation, has simply shut the door on anything that cannot be measured. The Old Guard refuses to discuss it. But the loss is immense. Obsession with strictly physical qualities has blocked out all real human values. "
Hope you're doing well, brother. Take care and 93 93/93.
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@Frater 639 said
"Awesome. How's the progress going?"
It progresses. Some new insights gained on the structure of the ritual, more trust in my own intuitive abilities. I still find that it has a more powerful effect when I restrict it to the mental/astral (i.e. closed-eye visualizations in a meditative asana) so my current work is in getting the physical performance of it in the mundane plane up to a similar level of strength. Tough to do when one must create the pentagrams and Archangels on and within one's closet and desk.
@Frater 639 said
"No relation of perspectives and combining of opposites and one becomes a slave to reason."
Yes indeed. I've found it amusing to note that, since leaving these boards, they've both continued their crusade over on Lashtal. Even there, where the regular posters pride themselves on maintaining a "non-occult" Aleister Crowley discussion, the shortcomings of the limited, reason-exclusive POV is consistently derided. As you say, it's not the inherent rightness or wrongness of the position that is the problem, it's the inflexibility and inability to evolve through discussion that seems to be the issue.
I recently read the following on another thread elsewhere and found it to be very insightful:
"Debate: Assuming that there is a right answer & that you have it.
Dialogue: Assuming that many people have pieces of the answer & that together they can craft a solution
Debate: Listening to find flaws and make counter arguments.
Dialogue: Listening to understand, find meaning and agreement.
Debate: Defending one’s own views against those of others.
Dialogue: Admitting that other’s thinking can improve on your own.
Debate: Seeking a conclusion or vote that ratifies your position.
Dialogue: Discovering new options, not seeking closure."Excerpted from Daniel Yankelovich, The Magic of Dialogue (2001)
@Frater 639 said
"Hope you're doing well, brother. Take care and 93 93/93."
You as well.