Who's Will?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Interesting philosophical issue and, in some ways, the same issue that is at the base of most practical questions about Thelema in a social unit.
You need to own your own truth when it's presented to you. Of course, you also have to understand that you might be wrong or misdirected.
My general view resembles yours. The basic point is that a junky is a junky and, while they have paths to change their life condition, and while Thelemic kings are inherently compassionate, it is neither honest nor compassionate nor smart to believe them. (BTW, I'm not generalizing about all people with an addiction problem, or all people who use Substance X. I'm speaking of junkies, and anyone who knows them will know what I mean without my defining it too narrowly.)
So... I don't think you're doing her much good. I have no reason to believe your guest is acting in alignment with will - these reacting on feral animal impulse. On "letting them work out their own will," that only leaves your brother and, while I don't wish to deprive him of intense recurring sausage devourings, you might have a talk with him. (That's your ethical "path of safety.") I think maybe you have to trust his choices even if you don't like them. If necessary, take responsibility for getting him laid by other means
"93!
Jim, I hope this won't be considered an inappropriate tangent to this thread... Would you please expand on what you meant by " Thelemic kings are inherently compassionate" ? This seems to resonate with something I've been contemplating lately, but I'm not entirely sure I know what you meant by it.
93s!
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CCXX specifically says that compassion is the vice of kings.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"CCXX specifically says that compassion is the vice of kings."
93!
Thank you for the reply!
Yes, I did assume you were referring to CCXX 2:21, I just wasn't sure exactly what is meant by "vice". I've been contemplating compassion & Thelema... I've arrived so far at an understanding that for example, being kind to someone is lawful if it's "delivered from the lust of result" and "unassuaged of purpose" etc... But that there seems to be no "inherent merit" in kindness, no more than cruelty ( at least according to my current capacity for understanding things)...You wrote that Thelemic kings are inherently compassionate (and it is similarly stated in CCXX 2:21), does that perhaps mean that people who do their will, "Thelemic Kings" are inherently compassionate? That if they saw someone in need they would inherently be drawn to help?? Is this some sort of formula? Like if you're doing your will, compassion follows?
93s!
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Rule: Don't turn this into rules
Don't lose the experience to labels. That's just reducing your anxiety by trying to make chaos orderly & comprehensible.
Anecdote: I once proudly, enthusiastically told Regarding that I make a point of not doing (whatever it was). After a moment he said, "Don't make a point of it. Just don't do it."
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Yes
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There are too many questions of what is whose will and also is it True. From this vantage point it is hard to help you without only offering generalities.
BUT
as I have experience in this topic, I'll do just that.
Learn her treatment model. You said she went to rehab. What method was it? Peer oriented? What models did they use? Twelve step? Prayer? A combination of any and all?
The "regulation" is that you have the "right" to offer feed back, to even "confront" or "intervene," but only the patient can do the work. (This applies to addressing both your brother and this woman.)
Become a peer if peer structure is what she knows. If she's only paying lip service, call her on her bullshit. (If that word gets censured, use "bull-dookey.)" If she's a twelve-stepper (understanding we only require a higher power as she understands it, and you can put in a circular file whatever that is if you don't agree), walk her through the steps.
Consider the slogan popular in the 1990s regarding the homeless: They don't need a hand-out, they need a hand up.
Do your Will - and you're right to question if it's True. As far as your family, thou hast no right but to do thy will. (Although that line has many levels, in this case it means you can't force your will on others.)
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The Devil's Advocate in me notices that this predicament was started by your decision to help her by asking your parents for a handout and now you're regretting the haste with which you made that decision. You then extol the virtues of your tight-knit family unit as though this woman invaded your territory and now you're asking the U.N. to look the other way while you "clean up" your mistakes. You saddled yourself with more responsibility than you were expecting and now that that decision is impinging on your status quo comfort level, you're shifting the blame. IMHO, you decided to interfere with the path of this particular star, it's now your path to see that through. If you don't want her hitting on your brother, find her another situation that doesn't depend on your parents' wealth. Maybe work to reconcile her with her own family. But to just label her a junkie and use that as an excuse to nullify your bad decisions seems pretty un-Thelemic to me.
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@GnosomaiEmauton she's not my friend, my wife's. My wife mentioned it to my parents when we were leaving for visitation hours and they offered; we didnt ask and my wife and I both discussed it and said "who are we to get in the way of someone offering help." Basically the only help we could offer was passing along my parents offer. Did we bite off more than we can chew? Sure, maybe.
My tendency is to help people in whatever way I can but if they try to shit where I'm standing, it's over.
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I don't believe I said she was your friend. Why does it matter whether she's your friend or your wife's?
Either way, that's a different scenario than painted in the OP. If your parents offered without prompting by you, why is this your issue? This version makes it sound like this was their will and has nothing to do with yours unless you choose to interfere. This time, I'm with your wife: let them work out their own wills.
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Ahh...now I can take a minute and think through a response. Sorry, was writing from my iPhone today while on daddy duties.
The reason i take responsibility for this situation is because i was the only thing that stood between going right back to her junkie boyfriend or having a safe place to stay. My parents offered but gave me final say because i said i had my reservations. My wife left it up to me because she was in a quandary as well and knows her better. So i thought, "Theres a good chance she could die if i withhold this option." and i felt like that would've been seriously selfish. So i told my wife to mention the opportunity.
I have been mulling the ideal of compassion in action and thought i would err on the side of offering an opportunity. My flaw and general naiveté is that i do not think like a junkie. I've done copious amounts of addictive drugs and could stop without thinking about it. I don't know if i can call it will power if it comes so easy to me, but thats how I'm built. So i don't understand the mindset of someone who can't keep their hand out of the baggie. I've tried for the sake of understanding but i can't wrap my head around it.
We helped her move in and i thought, "There, a nice quiet place where she can be alone with her thoughts." Helped her get some healthy food and encouraged her to go on walks in the forest. But after many late evenings talking to her it began to sink in how manipulative she is and how if its not a physical drug its an emotional one e.g. my brother. She's like a black widow. She's left a trail of men ruined by her ways. I hadn't considered the possibility she would set eyes on my brother but she did, after i warned him to avoid her. She walked 10 miles (she cant drive) to his place of work to see him. She's oblivious (or pretends to be) of her own motives but they are transparent to everyone around her.
I started to realize, she doesn't want to work at getting better; she'd rather convince people she does. It's much easier. So she would walk to my parents house and use her life story (it really does suck) to rope them in emotionally. It's very subtle but while i may have been naive that giving her a place to stay would assist in her getting her act together, i am no fool when it comes to seeing through peoples words and actions. I thought ahead about the different paths this situation could play out and the majority don't end well. I see that bad for everyone, including myself. Also, i have 3 little kids that need my attention, I didn't expect her to attempt to suck up so much time, but again she's selfish and think the world revolves around her. As a parent, I'm used to being last in line!
I made a commitment to The Great Work and part of that work i think is knowing how to express the ideal of compassion; when am i helping rather than hurting someone? Before we went to visit her i had the vision of the good samaritan play through my head. I'm just not the type that would step over someone if they are lying in the gutter. I think now i would distinguish whether that person ended up in the gutter at someone elses hand or put themselves there. Either way its in me to investigate and make sure the person is ok. So, this girl was close to death before her month of in-patient rehab, i figured it was worth a hand up in some way if the other option was going back to junk. I think theres a lesson in this situation which is why i shared it, because i respect the will of individuals and i assert that right in myself and there are many wills at play in this scenario. We all have our orbit and I'm feeling like she may need to be sent away if she doesn't get serious about self-improvement and distracting herself with manipulating people and attempting to finagle her way into a cushy life. I've been drawing The Chariot quite a bit, so I'm thinking how i can live up to that energy, or what the energy is trying to bring my attention to. I think I'm going to communicate very clear and strict parameters for her behaviour that would help her with starting over and if she tries to crash into my orbit, I'll revoke her opportunity she's been handed.
Thanks to all for the replies and food for thought.
