Tactile Energy
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Have you read Liber E? Specifically Section V, line 8?
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"Have you read Liber E? Specifically Section V, line 8?"
Of course. But I'm not sure if it's relevant here. That's dharana instructions. I'm not doubting if it's advantageous to be able to concentrate on other sense data and reproduce that data at will. What I'm wondering is if one can successfully move and manipulate energy throughout the body via tactile imagining instead of pure visualization.
I thought my question was quite straightforward and I can't for the life of me figure out why it isn't being immediately understood. Am I mistaken and the Western esoteric tradition doesn't believe in energy in the way I've described it? Can you not move energy to the palms of your hands? Can you not draw in solar energy from the sun and store it in the energy center associated with tiphareth?
Think Reiki: moving "energy" to your hands and directing it into someone's body to supposedly heal them. That's what I'm talking about.
Maybe an example would help. This is taken from instructions for Helionic Projection I found: sending out a mist from ones body that forms an astral vehicle, then transferring one's consciousness to that vehicle and frolicking through the astral.
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"In the early stages, the novice's exteriorization of substance is likely to be purely imaginative; however, with conscientious practice the "astro-sensitive" region will soon respond to the student's command, and it will not be long before he is able, through this use of his imagination, to send forth astral substance in truth.""So, there is, according to this source, a difference between purely imagined astral substance and astral substance "in truth." Both are directed via visualization though. I want to know if I can direct this astral substance via tactile imagining instead of visualization.
Hope this makes sense. Astral substance, qi, psi, life force, prana, energy, light, whatever name you have for it, that's what I'm talking about. Can "that stuff" be moved around, channeled, drawn in, pushed out, with tactile imagining instead of visualization (what I mean by tactile imagining is defined in my first post).
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93,
"No, I didn't ask that. I'm wondering if the feelings I get from tactile energy practice are indicative of really channeling energy. I'm also wondering if tactile energy manipulation can be used to boost energy-related actions, like making an etheric double."
I've answered that. I've said no, other that basic concentration exercises. Did you prefer another answer?
"I'm not at all sure what you're talking about here. Or, I guess I don't really understand why you're talking about it. You said this in response to a question I asked about whether or not bringing energy down during the Middle Pillar and circulating it is similar to creating an etheric double out of energy."
No. It is not. I brought up how you're mixing the planes. Which is relevant here, because you're asking the question which explicitly shows that you're mixing up Middle Pillar exercises with Liber O practices. I am being very clear. They are not the same.
"This strikes me as odd. You are saying not to mix prana with magical ritual, yet we're discussing a syncretistic paradigm whose calling card is harmonizing eastern yoga with the western esoteric tradition. Crowley was all about mixing these paradigms! He uses raja yoga to increase his magical abilities, after all."
This is a strawman argument - bringing up Crowley - which you are using to try to defend your theories, theories that you are asking questions about? Yet, you seem to be an expert. Which begs the question, why are you asking questions if you already know the answers? Raja yoga is used for concentration, and ultimately, Silence. Imagining being painted with a brush is not the same thing as manifesting prana.
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So you're saying that you think controlling energy via visualization is the sole way to create an etheric double? Why couldn't one use tactile imagining to create the double?"I have no idea what you mean by this. It seems you have no idea what it means to create an etheric double. Work on the basics first. You admittedly have difficulty with visualization. Imagining yourself getting painted with a brush will not help you create an etheric double, except in the most basic concentration sense. Do you disagree? What experience from your practices prove this?
"I'm kind of getting the vibe that you're saying that energy (in the way I'm using the word) doesn't really exist or at least that it doesn't play a role in these practices. Do you think the etheric body is made of astral energy?"
Please define what you mean by energy. Or, describe what you mean by astral energy. I've worked with astrals, but I've never used that term. There seems to be confusion. I cannot formulate a response based on your communicated ideas of energy, in relation to the questions you are asking.
"Surely, we are having two completely different discussions here (each to which the other person is not privy)! Again, I'm talking about energy, what the Hindus call prana. I'm talking about the energy you can bring up your spine, the power of reiki that can be channeled through the hands, or the energy you can bring to your palms to cast a fire ball or flipendo or fus-ro-dah. By talking around me like this are you trying to indicate that you don't think such an energy exists? "
Casting a fireball? Wow. This shows some sort of Street Fighter method of magic that I've never witnessed before. Surely, you can show me some sort of scientific proof for this to discuss, instead of some fairy tale you've read in a book. I don't think "fireball energy" exists, at least, an energy like that which originates from your palms. You're absolutely right that I don't believe that.
Now, if you want to discuss energy that you can channel through your hands, what experience have you had with this that makes you believe in this theory? And if you had such experience, why are you asking about it?
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Okay, we're definitely not on the same page. I'm not talking about what my practices are supposed to accomplish, and I'm not talking about belief or disbelief in the slightest. I'm asking if tactile techniques, like the one described in the first post, is a valid substitution or augmentation for visually guiding energy."And I've answered this already, BUT I will repeat myself again, even though it doesn't jive with your pet theories that you're seemingly championing. Painting yourself with a paintbrush may help with concentration, but that's about it.
"I truly believe that there is some intense misunderstanding here. If you're willing, take a look at my original post again and my clarifying post. I think that you might be thinking I'm talking about something else altogether."
I've read your post. There is a misunderstanding here. You want to believe that your theory of painting yourself with a brush will help you with ritual, and I say yes, it will. But only insofar as you're learning to pay attention. It WILL NOT facilitate "calling down energy," it WILL NOT enable you to cast fireballs, it WILL NOT manifest energy from the universe, etc. which is what you were originally asking.
But, I don't think you were asking, so much as you were trying to prove your theories, which seem to be harmonious with something that some "expert" has written down something in a book.
Devise your own experiments. Collect your own data. That is where the real energy lies. The more you rely on your own methods, the better your results will be.
Do you disagree?
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Clearly I've annoyed you, probably because I questioned your understanding of my original post. I'm really not trying to be recalcitrant here.
I'm not trying to ask a question and then deny the answer. I'm not basing my assertions on things I've personally experienced; rather, I'm basing my assertions on the experiences of thousands of others. It seems that many people have experienced an energy that they can manipulate throughout their body in various ways. Maybe this force doesn't have ontic validity, but it sure seems to work for people! I guess, I think that you are in the minority of occult practitioners who thinks that such a force doesn't exist.
I hope you see what I'm saying. You're telling me I can't manipulate energy tactilely, which you're right, that's my question... But you also don't think you can manipulate such energy visually either, it seems. That's giving me cause for concern.
Surely, you can see why I'm hesitant to accept this view. If you go to any occult forum, there are tons of practitioners talking about energy as if it's a real thing that can be directed throughout the body. They talk about storing energy below your solar plexus region, they talk about focusing energy in their hands and using it to heal others, they talk about bringing energy up their spine to awaken Kundalini. Even thelemites talk this way. So you must understand, when you imply that such an energy doesn't exist and can't be manipulated, I start to question the advice given.
The reason I think tactile might be legitamite is because I experience similar sensations to what other occult practitioners experience when they move energy with visualization, e.g., buzzing, tingling, warmth, etc. Moreover, Robert Bruce's work seems to be helpful to many people, and his entire technique involves moving energy throughout the energy body via tactile imaginings.
I'm not sure you are using the term "strawman argument" in the correct way. But ironically, that's what you are doing in your post by referring to me creating an astral double by imagining a paintbrush stroking me. That's not at all what I said. The paintbrush thing is just a tactile imagination technique to stimulate the energy body. I would be attempting to send astral stuff out, but I would be using tactile imagining to help the process along.
It's really hard for me to believe that there is no misunderstanding here when you continue to misinterpret my posts. You went on a bizarre tangent about the existence of fireballs, when what I said was clearly (to 99% of people reading this) said tongue in cheek. Did you notice the other two examples I gave right next to the fireball? A spell from a young-adult fiction hit and a spell from a video game. I thought this would be quite obvious -- I don't read that fictional series nor do I play that videogame, but I thought those were sufficiently well-known to the average person. I don't mean to rebuke you, but if you see something ridiculous like making a fireball, but it's next to two terms you aren't familiar with, either give them a quick Google or don't address the sentence. There's no need to pen a condescending paragraph just because you didn't get a joke.
I'm not sure if fruitful discussion will be possible as I think I've pissed you off a bit, but I would like to hear your reasons for thinking that energy (in the way I've been using that term) doesn't exist. Do most thelemites agree with you? Do most people here think that you can't manipulate prana throughout and beyond your body? I'm curious, as I just took it for granted that occultists believed in energy and energy manipulation in the way I've described it.
Unless I'm completely misreading your post and you actually DO believe energy can be manipulated, but that it must be done visually instead of tactilly. If that's the case, I'm curious as to why you think that's true.
Instead of fireballs, can I ask you about something like Reiki? The entirety of Reiki seems to rest on the postulate that energy can be harnessed and directed. Do you think it's hogwash?
I hope you understand why I'm doubting what you're saying. It's not that I know better than you; it's that from my perspective, you seem to hold a view that the bulk of occultists don't hold. Maybe an analogy would suffice. Let's say I wanted to ask a question about computer programming, butI knew nothing about computer programming. I log on to a forum and ask a question about how to program a calculator in Java. An expert on the site responds, and tells me that Java doesn't exist. I wouldn't want to think I knew more than him, but I would doubt what he's saying, on the basis that most computer programmers believe that Java exists. Your views seem to go against most of the occult community. This doesn't make them wrong: maybe everyone else is. But it does make me want to press the issue a bit more. Does that make sense?
Did you read that little snippet I posted? Do you think that technique is bullshit? That snippet indicates that "astral stuff" can be exteriorized, and it uses visualization to do it. I guess I'm interested to know why someone couldn't exteriorize it with tactile imagination instead of visual imagination.
Look what Jim says here:
"When this is practiced as a 3=8, we know a couple of things are true. First, we know that the person has mastered asana to the level of very long, very stable physical stillness; and is moderately advanced in pranayama, indicating that there is a certain purification of the channels, at least unconscious instinct for managing the body's energy flows, etc. Finally, it is almost certain that significant kundalini activity has begun well before that point, so that this becomes a refinement and specialization, rather than a "forcing something open.""
He mentions purifying the channels and managing the body's energy flow. This is what I'm trying to ask about. That kind of energy. Channels indicate that it flows throughout the body, right? How do you interpret what Jim is saying here?
Whatever Jim means by energy is what I want to ask about. Can I move that energy with tactile imagining. If not, why not? I'm not trying to harbor anpet theory here. I just don't get why this wouldn't work. When I do it, I certainly feel many things that people seem to call " energy sensations"
I hope this post doesn't annoy you further. I also hope you're willing to continue the discussion.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Jim, can you help clarify the matter?
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Another quote from Jim I found:
"n Temple of Thelema, there is a progressive training of the physical and subtle bodies over the course of the First Order, one intention of which is to get them able to easily handle increasingly strong flows of energy. (It isn't terribly evident that this is what's going on until about 2°, but the 0° and 1° stages are specific setups and leadins for it. In 2° the channels are purified and direct energy flow work commences. From 3° through Portal there is a very specific set of work that daily permits the channels of the subtle body to conduct such energy as they are capable and systematically increase this.) Another set of practices programs subconsciousness to invite the natural, easy, non-strenuous maturation of the chakras over time by indirect means that do not require direct concentration upon them.
I mentioned that actual harm can result. This is the other main point to make about kundalini work: Kundalini is a REAL force that has REAL physical, emotional, and other psychological impact. "
This should help to clarify my question. Jim again speaks of channeling energy, conducting energy, etc. The term I haven't been using is "subtle body." That's what I mean in my question. Is it possible to manipulate energy throughout my subtle body with tactile imaging.
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93,
@Luce said
"Clearly I've annoyed you, probably because I questioned your understanding of my original post. I'm really not trying to be recalcitrant here.
"No, you haven't annoyed me. Forgive my directness, but I've answered your questions as clearly as I can. You are seemingly not accepting of them. For certain reasons:
- You think that all Thelemites believe in some sort of subtle energy, which makes it real.
- You feel that Crowley has merged Western magick and Eastern yoga, so you have the expertise do this as well, even though you have not demonstrated success with basic practices.
- You want to believe that imagining a paintbrush can be just as effective as core visualization practices, so you'd like to substitute them, admitting you are weak when it comes to visualizing.
Please let me know if I've oversimplified.
Without picking your post apart point by point, I will say a few things.
- Other people don't dictate my view of subtle energy - my view is gained through practice and experience.
- An intellectual apprehension of what "energy" seems to be to you will not help you attain what REAL practice can.
- You need to practice your weaknesses - an intermediate mastery of asana helps when visualizing.
- It was more of cherry picking instead of a strawman argument. But it's all the same energy, right?
You seem to want an expert to rely on. You ask questions. Then, you want to twist those questions to fuel the decision that you've made regarding a workaround to visualization practices.
I agree with Jim - his quotes make perfect sense to me. From a certain point of view, Kundalini "so-called" is a REAL force, although I think the term "Kundalini" is a bit of a misnomer. That being said, I like to explain it more from a western model.
The 3=8 work will take care of itself - Jim's writing on the subject is from the point of view of an adept and beyond, not from a student's point of view. Obviously, higher grades can only be understood theoretically before the experience makes them Understood. I know speaking of practices in higher grades can really cause issues with some students and it can hinder progress - the intellectual mechanism gets in the way and students will try workarounds instead of sticking to the practices. You're not the first one who thinks themselves smart enough to make a short cut when it comes to some form of training. Or, maybe you don't. But it sure sounds like you do.
As far as energetic channels, Jim's point of view is very straightforward and comes from an understanding of the microcosmic orbit of the Taoists, the eight extraordinary vessels, etc.
Prana/chi are not measurable quantitatively with much accuracy yet. This makes the term much more subjective, which is why you may think, based on my answers, that I don't believe in it. Suffice to say, I'm skeptical of my own results and others, but that doesn't mean I do not use the energetic model to explain things when useful. After all, nothing is "real" by itself, only in relation to other things can we measure phenomena. But, my tangents seem to be hard for you to relate to, which is ok - I don't expect you to follow every tangent without the requisite experience. Sometimes, I answer for other people reading who may understand what I'm saying.
I've answered your question of why I think tactile practices may be useful, but it is NOT a substitution for visualization. The five elements have their correlations in the five senses, but again, that may be too tangental to use the balancing of the elements metaphor. In any event, realizing that mastery in one of the senses is not mastery in another sense is important.
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Unless I'm completely misreading your post and you actually DO believe energy can be manipulated, but that it must be done visually instead of tactilly. If that's the case, I'm curious as to why you think that's true.Instead of fireballs, can I ask you about something like Reiki? The entirety of Reiki seems to rest on the postulate that energy can be harnessed and directed. Do you think it's hogwash?"
I'm not saying it can't be manipulated tactilely. You asked if it could be substituted for visualization. I said no.
My opinion of Reiki is that it can be a useful model, except for all the Christian bullshit. I don't think it is ALL hogwash, although I think the idea of energy being "harnessed and directed" can be very confusing. I've already stated that each paradigm should be dealt with according to its own model. That being said, I've conducted my own experiments with "energy that is harnessed and controlled" from that particular model as you say, and I've acheived success. Again, the success had more to do with concentration and less to do with body sensations of "feeling the energy" - which is what you opened up your post about.
Remember the feelings of confusion you had as to what energy is and feels like? Now, it seems you've gained a great deal of expertise since then, but no real experience of being able to prove anything, other than some tingling feeling. I feel you are being a bit disingenuous with your intentions here.
Also, I think your example is rather weak about Java. I never said that people don't use an energetic model, nor have I said that I don't use it myself. The difference is that Java is quantitatively measurable accurately and readily, while your idea of energy is not. Am I right in saying that?
Now, may I ask you a few questions?
Where is your data that the "energy" phenomenon exists?
Have you experienced it yourself?
If so, how much experience do you have moving "energy" around?
Do you believe that this energy exists if you've never visualized it?
If so, is it because so many other people have told you it exists?
You've spoken of using tactile energy to send astral stuff out, could you please give an example?Thanks, Luce. Please don't mistake my directness for annoyance. I'm enjoying the exchange.
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@Luce said
"Another quote from Jim I found:
"n Temple of Thelema, there is a progressive training of the physical and subtle bodies over the course of the First Order, one intention of which is to get them able to easily handle increasingly strong flows of energy. (It isn't terribly evident that this is what's going on until about 2°, but the 0° and 1° stages are specific setups and leadins for it. In 2° the channels are purified and direct energy flow work commences. From 3° through Portal there is a very specific set of work that daily permits the channels of the subtle body to conduct such energy as they are capable and systematically increase this.) Another set of practices programs subconsciousness to invite the natural, easy, non-strenuous maturation of the chakras over time by indirect means that do not require direct concentration upon them.
I mentioned that actual harm can result. This is the other main point to make about kundalini work: Kundalini is a REAL force that has REAL physical, emotional, and other psychological impact. "
This should help to clarify my question. Jim again speaks of channeling energy, conducting energy, etc. The term I haven't been using is "subtle body." That's what I mean in my question. Is it possible to manipulate energy throughout my subtle body with tactile imaging."
Please give an example of what you mean. If you mean, can I imagine moving energy around my imagined subtle body? I would say yes.
Do you see benefits to doing that? Why?
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@Luce said
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"Have you read Liber E? Specifically Section V, line 8?"Of course. But I'm not sure if it's relevant here. That's dharana instructions. I'm not doubting if it's advantageous to be able to concentrate on other sense data and reproduce that data at will. What I'm wondering is if one can successfully move and manipulate energy throughout the body via tactile imagining instead of pure visualization."
From this, it sounds as if you might be misunderstanding what "concentration" is. In the above, you seem to be using it as a synonym for "focus attention on", i.e., keep your attention on a red triangle, or a paintbrush on your finger. Focusing attention on a sensory experience (whether visual or tactile) is the method, but the intended effect of that method is to concentrate energy. Think of orange juice concentrate to get the right image. Dharana practice gives your mind the training it needs to focus its attention on one thing to the exclusion of others and success in that training assists you in concentrating energy... for whatever purpose you later want to direct its use.
Your descriptions in your first post of the buzzy sensations that accompany your focusing of tactile sensations sounds to be of this nature. Concentrated energy. Energy experienced. Energy felt. When you then ask if this is a valid way to "move energy", you are convoluting your English. Moving energy is moving energy. Once you've successfully concentrated it by imaginatively paint-brushing your finger, move that sensation somewhere else. If you can successfully do that, you're starting to get some indication that you are gaining skill in moving energy. Not confirmation... indication.
I also think you might be misunderstanding the esoteric use of the word "visualization" which tends to be a blanket term to cover any astral cognate to the physical senses. I don't see any difference between what you are referring to as "tactile imagining" and "pure visualization". By splitting the idea into two categories, you're signaling that you might not have a grasp on what dharana visualization means.
"I thought my question was quite straightforward and I can't for the life of me figure out why it isn't being immediately understood."
Looks like something worth meditating on.
"Am I mistaken and the Western esoteric tradition doesn't believe in energy in the way I've described it? Can you not move energy to the palms of your hands? Can you not draw in solar energy from the sun and store it in the energy center associated with tiphareth?"
I'd say you're mistaken that any thread of the Western Tradition that filtered through the Crowley lens would "believe" in anything.
However, moving beyond belief, I move energy to the palms of my hands constantly. I'm doing it right now in order to type out this response. I've just finished my breakfast and so my stomach and upper intestines are currently in the process of drawing in the solar energy from the mush that's sloshing around down there which they will then transfer to my liver for energy conversion (i.e. the energy center associated with Tiphereth).
"Think Reiki: moving "energy" to your hands and directing it into someone's body to supposedly heal them. That's what I'm talking about."
I have no experience with Reiki. I have used my hands to heal both myself and others on occasion. Those instances required actual hands-on touching so I don't see them as being relevant to a discussion about "tactile imagining". In the successful cases, I used pranayama and visualization to concentrate energy (for me, it tends to work best when I focus that first step around my heart) and then, once I felt like a sufficient level of concentration had been reached, I consciously moved it into my hands and towards my intended target, continuing the bellows of pranayama throughout.
"Maybe an example would help. This is taken from instructions for Helionic Projection I found: sending out a mist from ones body that forms an astral vehicle, then transferring one's consciousness to that vehicle and frolicking through the astral.
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"In the early stages, the novice's exteriorization of substance is likely to be purely imaginative; however, with conscientious practice the "astro-sensitive" region will soon respond to the student's command, and it will not be long before he is able, through this use of his imagination, to send forth astral substance in truth.""So, there is, according to this source, a difference between purely imagined astral substance and astral substance "in truth." Both are directed via visualization though. I want to know if I can direct this astral substance via tactile imagining instead of visualization."
What is this source? Where did you find this? Perhaps you'd be better served by going to the source and asking your questions there since whoever wrote this likely has the information behind that which you're asking about.
"Hope this makes sense. Astral substance, qi, psi, life force, prana, energy, light, whatever name you have for it, that's what I'm talking about. Can "that stuff" be moved around, channeled, drawn in, pushed out, with tactile imagining instead of visualization (what I mean by tactile imagining is defined in my first post)."
Yes. No. Maybe.
Like I said above, my experience shows that, once I manage to concentrate it, the next step for me is to direct its flow through focused intention. The only step where I can fathom what I think you mean by "tactile imagining" to be useful is in the initial concentration and that is what Liber E, V.8 is addressing.
Whatever it is you think you're asking, test it out. Record the results. Do this for at least a month and preferably 3-6 months. You wrote on another thread that you feel deeply called to the work of the A.'.A.'. so you should know how this works: The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion. You've got your hypothesis, you seem to have it in mind exactly how things should work to confirm that hypothesis so... run the experiment.
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"1. You think that all Thelemites believe in some sort of subtle energy, which makes it real.
- You feel that Crowley has merged Western magick and Eastern yoga, so you have the expertise do this as well, even though you have not demonstrated success with basic practices.
- You want to believe that imagining a paintbrush can be just as effective as core visualization practices, so you'd like to substitute them, admitting you are weak when it comes to visualizing.
Please let me know if I've oversimplified."
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And I'm being disingenuous? Do you really think I'd sign off on the above as is? Let me help you out:
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You think that [x:2bwtg4s7]all[/x:2bwtg4s7] most Thelemites and the majority of the occult community in general believe in some sort of subtle energy, which makes it likely to be real or at least effective.
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You feel that Crowley has merged Western magick and Eastern yoga, [x:2bwtg4s7]so you have the expertise do this as well, even though you have not demonstrated success with basic practices.[/x:2bwtg4s7] so because I'm following the path of A.'.A.'., it makes sense to follow his system. The system he made is already syncretistic; I'm not reinventing the wheel here. The A.'.A.'. involves practices from both paradigms; I want to work within the A.'.A.'. system; I'm incorporating both Eastern and Western paradigms into my practices. Make sense?
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You want to believe that imagining a paintbrush can be [x:2bwtg4s7]just as effective[/x:2bwtg4s7] perhaps comparably effective ably effective as core visualization practices, so you'd like to [x:2bwtg4s7]substitute[/x:2bwtg4s7]augment my visualization practices with them, admitting you are weak when it comes to visualizing. I never said I would be eschewing visualization in favor of tactile work. I'm wondering if tactile work can help me move energy around.
"Remember the feelings of confusion you had as to what energy is and feels like? Now, it seems you've gained a great deal of expertise since then, but no real experience of being able to prove anything, other than some tingling feeling. I feel you are being a bit disingenuous with your intentions here.
"You are making far too many assumptions about me. I don't feel like going through each and every tattered assumption. When our conversation started, I thought that there was some comprehension difficulties, as it took multiple back-and-forth posts to get you to understand what I was talking about... Now I'm starting to think you were being intentionally difficult, presumably with some bizarre pedagogical approach in mind. Regardless, you would come to a more accurate reading of my posts if you took out the myriad of assumptions. I don't claim to be an expert -- I never did. But I'm decently well-read and I've spent a long time lurking on magickal forums in order to see what the general consensus is about various areas. So no, I didn't magically (pun intended) gain a ton of experience since my first post -- rather, I'm just low on experience but not necessarily low on the intellectual side of things. This creates the effect of me seeming to claim I know nothing, and then claiming to know something. I know enough to know that the majority of practitioners claim to be able to move and channel some sort of etheric substance throughout their bodies. Do I have personal experience with this? No. But I know enough to know when something I'm being told isn't quite above board.
"but that doesn't mean I do not use the energetic model to explain things when useful. After all, nothing is "real" by itself, only in relation to other things can we measure phenomena. "
If this is the case, then you should have immediately understood what I was talking about in my first post. No need to play dumb and make me try to explain it in fifty million different ways. You knew from the get-go I was talking about the very energetic model you claim to employ.
I'm not trying to sound harsh. I know you are trying to help me, and I do appreciate it. I'm just frustrated because I feel you were being intentionally obtuse with me in order to try to get me to understand something (what, I'm not quite sure), and I don't think it was helpful. Still, I appreciate the intent, and who knows, maybe a couple of years from now I'll look back at this thread and realize that you were the sage and I the moron. I'm completely open to that possibility, but from pre-Malkuth, it looks a little strange.
But let's put that aspect of things behind us. You know what I'm referring to now, so we can go from there.
"Where is your data that the "energy" phenomenon exists?
The testimony of others. Mass consensus throughout multiple traditions throughout the span of human history. That's good enough for me. I don't buy into this deranged logical positivism that sometimes gets thrown around by Crowley lovers. It's fine to say we need to test everything, but there's wisdom in accepting the knowledge of others, especially if its attested to by countless spiritual masters separated by religion, culture, geography, and time. If countless traditions all separately come to the idea that there is the "energy" phenomenon, that gives it credence. Will I accept it irrevocably? No. But it seems likely enough to exist that my default position is that it exists. I mean, we don't apply that type of radical skepticism to anything in life. I really don't understand how my microwave heats things up, but I trust the experts that it somehow involves light.
Have you experienced it yourself?
Only by doing tactile imagining. Though as mentioned, I really don't know if this is what people are referring to. All I know is that I can make my arms go all tingly and they feel really "lit up" and "charged" but I'm not sure if that's what a Yogi experiences when his chakras are charged up.
If so, how much experience do you have moving "energy" around?
See above. I've spent maybe a few dozen hours of dedicated practice moving it around, but I've never been sure if it's actually energy or just my nerve endings lighting up.
Do you believe that this energy exists if you've never visualized it?
Why would visualizing something mean that it exists? I can visualize Miley Cyrus making love to me but it doesn't make it so (Jim made me do it, I swear). Do you mean if I'm never seen it?
If so, is it because so many other people have told you it exists?
Yes, and I think that's wholly rational. We want to test things to be sure, but there's no point adopting that much skepticism to magick. We don't do that anywhere else in life. If we did, we wouldn't believe in history, geography, and most sciences.
You've spoken of using tactile energy to send astral stuff out, could you please give an example?
That quote I posted about Helionic Projection. But instead of just visually visualizing it (tautology, methinks not), tactilely visualizing it " -
"From this, it sounds as if you might be misunderstanding what "concentration" is. In the above, you seem to be using it as a synonym for "focus attention on", i.e., keep your attention on a red triangle, or a paintbrush on your finger. Focusing attention on a sensory experience (whether visual or tactile) is the method, but the intended effect of that method is to concentrate energy. Think of orange juice concentrate to get the right image. Dharana practice gives your mind the training it needs to focus its attention on one thing to the exclusion of others and success in that training assists you in concentrating energy... for whatever purpose you later want to direct its use.
"Thanks for your post. Guilty as charged: I definitely am using it as a synonym for "focus attention on." I see what you mean now about concentrating energy. I never read concentration in that way. That makes sense to me though, so thanks for explaining that. It seems odd though, as I think most people would read "concentration" as in "focusing attention on" as opposed to concentration in the way that orange juice is concentrated. Surely, there could be a better word used to convey that idea. Maybe "sharpen" or "channel" or "distill" or something.
"Once you've successfully concentrated it by imaginatively paint-brushing your finger, move that sensation somewhere else. If you can successfully do that, you're starting to get some indication that you are gaining skill in moving energy. Not confirmation... indication."
Yes, I can do that. And the "sensations" (buzzing, heat, tingling, etc.) move with it. I just wasn't sure if this was concentrated energy or if it was just nerve endings reacting or if there was even a difference.
"I also think you might be misunderstanding the esoteric use of the word "visualization" which tends to be a blanket term to cover any astral cognate to the physical senses. I don't see any difference between what you are referring to as "tactile imagining" and "pure visualization". By splitting the idea into two categories, you're signaling that you might not have a grasp on what dharana visualization means."
Yes, I don't think I have a solid grasp on Dharana at all. I have mostly stuck with Asana with a wee bit of pranayama thrown in. I don't have a teacher, so I run into a lot of issues where I just have no idea if I'm doing things right at all.
"I'd say you're mistaken that any thread of the Western Tradition that filtered through the Crowley lens would "believe" in anything.
"Sure, I think you know what I meant though. I meant "channel and manipulate energy and think that they are actually dealing with substance."
"What is this source? Where did you find this? Perhaps you'd be better served by going to the source and asking your questions there since whoever wrote this likely has the information behind that which you're asking about.
"It was just a book I had found, no I can't really go to the source. It's called Mysteria Magica: Fundamental Techniques of High Magick. I think Helionic Projection is a technique of the Astrum Sophiae, but maybe it has GD roots... Not quite sure. Regardless though, what was described in that quote seems no different than what I've read from countless other occultists. It just seems that people talk about energy slightly differently, but most everyone uses it in some capacity.
" The only step where I can fathom what I think you mean by "tactile imagining" to be useful is in the initial concentration and that is what Liber E, V.8 is addressing."
Hmmm, this is where I get confused. Wouldn't this be helpful in a whole variety of cases, especially if you're saying that tactile imagination can be a part of visualization? For example, my original example of the Middle Pillar. Couldn't I try to physically feel the energy descending instead of trying to actually see the energy descending in my mind's eye? Or would that not work? Am I explaining that right? Like, we talked about me being able to move energy once I feel it... Could I feel the energy sensations on the top of my head for Kether, and then feel the energy descending to my throat for Da'ath?
Maybe it would help if I was more specific with what I wanted to do with this. Basically, I've been frustrated that my rituals don't seem to be very powerful. I have a fair bit memorized, but I'm not getting much out of it. Yesterday I did a fire invoking ritual that involved an LBRP, Middle Pillar, Star Sapphire, SIRP, drawing down energy from the planes, prayers, invocations, enochian calls, etc. Everything was by memory except the enochian calls and some of the prayers. Despite memorizing all of this and performing it properly, I didn't really feel there are many results. I feel a bit charged after, very clean, peaceful, etc., but not much more.
I know to beware the dreaded lust of results, but it just seems strange to me that I'll do, say, the Middle Pillar and I don't feel anything. I say the names, do my best to draw the energy down, circulate it, etc., but I pretty much feel the same way during and after it as if i was saying "peanut butter" instead of El Shaddai and thinking of raisins instead of trying to draw energy down. From what I've read, if I'm doing it successfully, there should be some sort of effect.
So basically, I'm trying to figure out where the bottleneck is. I thought maybe intentional energy work might help. That way, when I did the Middle Pillar, I could actually feel the energy being brought down throughout my body instead of just saying the names, visualizing the energy, and feeling nothing.
I also think it would be helpful to train my energy body in general. I want to eliminate any potential "blocks" and get the channels used to having energy brought through them. I know things like the LBRP and the Middle Pillar are supposed to get the aspirant used to energy, but I feel like I'm not able to get any energy going through my body. I thought if sit down each day and practice using tactile imagining to move energy around my subtle body, it'll get stronger and more accustomed to energy movement. Maybe I'll even be able to wake up some of my chakras or something.
"Whatever it is you think you're asking, test it out. Record the results. Do this for at least a month and preferably 3-6 months"
Maybe I should clarify the reason I made this thread and am asking about this. I want to know if what I'm experiencing actually is energy (and you seem to think that there's an indication it might be, which I'm pleased about) or if I'm just activating nerve endings and really doing nothing of spiritual merit. I have tried the techniques out and found great success with them, but only if the sensations are actually an indication of energy! If they aren't then I'm just deceiving myself, and I'll pour countless hours into doing nothing more than biofeedback.
This is why I came on here to ask if people could spend a couple of minutes trying out the tactile method I described and report back letting me know if the sensations they feel are the same as they feel when they visualize energy. Basically, I want to know if this is a legitimate way to channel energy. I don't want to spend 6 months doing this, thinking I'm charging chakras, getting all these sensations, just to find out "no, it doesn't work." Sure, it'd be the most guaranteed way to know, but time is precious. I'd rather have some advice from others to know if this is a practice worth pursuing. From my preliminary exercises, it sure seems like it works... and from people's testimonies who are fans of Robert Bruce's work... But because I'm specifically going down the Western Esoteric path (and Bruce is not Western Esoteric), I thought getting some thelemite thoughts would be helpful.
I know no one can tell me 100% that this will work. But if a couple of advanced practitioners who are familiar with energy try the tactile technique and tell me, "yup, I did the imaginary paintbrush thing up my arm and it brought energy up my arm" that's enough for me to make an informed decision of incorporating this into my practice.
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93,
Thanks for your clarifications in red.
@Luce said
"You are making far too many assumptions about me. I don't feel like going through each and every tattered assumption. When our conversation started, I thought that there was some comprehension difficulties, as it took multiple back-and-forth posts to get you to understand what I was talking about... Now I'm starting to think you were being intentionally difficult, presumably with some bizarre pedagogical approach in mind. Regardless, you would come to a more accurate reading of my posts if you took out the myriad of assumptions. I don't claim to be an expert -- I never did. But I'm decently well-read and I've spent a long time lurking on magical forums in order to see what the general consensus is about various areas. So no, I didn't magically (pun intended) gain a ton of experience since my first post -- rather, I'm just low on experience but not necessarily low on the intellectual side of things. This creates the effect of me seeming to claim I know nothing, and then claiming to know something. I know enough to know that the majority of practitioners claim to be able to move and channel some sort of etheric substance throughout their bodies. Do I have personal experience with this? No. But I know enough to know when something I'm being told isn't quite above board."
Perhaps I was, thank you for elucidating further.
"You knew from the get-go I was talking about the very energetic model you claim to employ."
I wasn't intentionally being obtuse. I was trying to tease apart the feelings in your nerve endings and the energy employed through focused attention/intention. There is a difference - and I get that you don't want to be coerced by self-deception, which is a very large pitfall that affects many practitioners. So, that's good to keep that healthy skeptic in mind!
"But let's put that aspect of things behind us. You know what I'm referring to now, so we can go from there."
Ok. Sounds good.
I agree with your synopsis of trying to look the multiple traditions throughout the span of human history and trying to apply the gold, and separating the dross. Sounds very reasonable.
Now, if you're looking for techniques to augment this concentration, and you are sincere about using the System of the A.'.A.'. to do so, I can tell you it is effective. If you're using tacile imagination to augment, great!
So, the core of your question is this, and please clarify if I'm missing something:
How do I know if I'm doing it right? Am I fooling myself with these sensations, or is it really energy?
And you think I'm being pedantic, but I've tried to explain that energy can mean many different things. If you're just looking for "how do I know if I'm doing it right?" I will definitely try to help.
How long can you stay in your asana without 5 breaks?
Breaks are classed as follows:
*Firstly, physical sensations; these should have been overcome by Asana.
Secondly, breaks that seem to be indicated by events immediately preceding the meditation: their activity becomes tremendous. Only by this practice does one understand how much is really observed by the senses without the mind becoming conscious of it.
Thirdly, there is a class of break partaking of the nature of reverie or 'day-dreaming.' These are very insidious-one may go on for a long time without realising that one has wandered at all.
Fourthly, we get a very high class of break, which is a sort of abberation of the control itself. You think, 'How well I am doing it!' or perhaps that it would be rather a good idea if you were on a desert island, or if you were in a sound-proof house, or if you were sitting by a waterfall. But these are only trifling variations from the vigilance itself.
A fifth class of break seems to have no discoverable source in the mind-such might even take the form of actual hallucination, usually auditory. Of course, such hallucinations are infrequent, and are recognised for what they are. Otherwise the student had better see a doctor. The usual kind consists of odd sentences, or fragments of sentences, which are quite distinctly heard in a recognisable human voice, not the student's own voice, or that of anyone he knows. A similar phenomenon is observed by wireless operators, who call such messages 'atmospherics.'
There is a further kind of break, which is the desired result itself. * - Eight Lectures on YogaAn intermediate mastery of this process should be about 15 minutes with less than 5 breaks. The reason why I'm saying this, is because energy work, as you surmised, can be filled with self-deception. An intermediate mastery of Dharana practice helped me to understand what is truly effective energy work, and what is not. I had the benefit of refining this skill before getting into Liber O on the recommendation of my Teacher. It has proved invaluable.
I understand that you're intelligent and that you're very well read on the subject, which is why have been stressing the practices and the basics before worrying about advanced energy work. I'm sorry if you felt that was pedagogic. In many cases, students end up spinning their wheels in the beginning, and the intellect has a very...*intellectual *way of explaining things (tautology?
). I've already recommended NOT THINKING about "am I doing it right?" - suspension of disbelief during the actual practice - the psychological censor can stop real results. Again, no breaks in concentration practices mean that the "am I doing it right?" distraction will no longer inhibit you.I can guarantee if the practices of the A.'.A.'. are followed out, you won't have these issues once the basics are out of the way. Also, I might add that the A.'.A.'. is very strict about passing certain milestones before progressing to the next Grade, and are laid out in an order that is very helpful to facilitate success when attempting the subsequent Tasks of each Grade that follows.
I really have confidence that by applying the above concentration methods during daily practice, you'll get to the point that your intention, coupled with energized enthusiasm, will have the focus requisite to not fool yourself and you'll be getting to some effective energy work. The tingling sensations can be a byproduct of pranayama, intention, ritual aspects, etc. but are not a guarantee that the energy work that you're intending to do will be effective, and it can be a distraction as well. Sometimes, it can just be an increased heart rate or something easily explained by physiological changes. I think you understand what I mean by that, so I'll shut up about it now.
All in all, this should not discourage you from experimenting yourself and working with your ideas of energy as you see fit. However, you wanted to know recommendations from more advanced practitioners, and I wanted to pass the above along to you.
I must add, while it is admirable to try to work the System of the A.'.A.'. without in an Instructor, it is VERY difficult. As you may have noticed, there are a lot of questions, self-deceptions, etc. that come up. It is not impossible, but it is VERY DIFFICULT, even with an Instructor.
I hope it is helpful! Good luck!
93 93/93,
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@Luce said
"It seems odd though, as I think most people would read "concentration" as in "focusing attention on" as opposed to concentration in the way that orange juice is concentrated. Surely, there could be a better word used to convey that idea. Maybe "sharpen" or "channel" or "distill" or something."
Interestingly, I've heard the same argument often made about the word "energy". It's the exact reason that people choose to use prana or chi or any number of other terms to denote a specific meaning of "energy" rather than the stuff from the power station that makes lightbulbs light up or the stuff in food that keeps your body moving... but that is the way that "concentration" is meant. Whether or not "most people" take it that way is, frankly, their problem.
"
"I'd say you're mistaken that any thread of the Western Tradition that filtered through the Crowley lens would "believe" in anything.
"Sure, I think you know what I meant though. I meant "channel and manipulate energy and think that they are actually dealing with substance.""
In my experience, energy and substance are two phases of the same One thing but are, by definition, mutually exclusive. See: Einstein's e=mc^2 for the mathematical relation between the two.
"It was just a book I had found, no I can't really go to the source. It's called Mysteria Magica: Fundamental Techniques of High Magick. I think Helionic Projection is a technique of the Astrum Sophiae, but maybe it has GD roots... Not quite sure. Regardless though, what was described in that quote seems no different than what I've read from countless other occultists. It just seems that people talk about energy slightly differently, but most everyone uses it in some capacity."
The Ogdoadic current (of which A.'.S.'. is a thread) developed parallel to Golden Dawn, not in derivation from it. Though they both trace their roots back to the Hermetic foundation, there are definite structural differences due to the long independence of the two currents.
A.'.S.'. is a working order so you can, very easily, go to the source... if you so choose.
"
" The only step where I can fathom what I think you mean by "tactile imagining" to be useful is in the initial concentration and that is what Liber E, V.8 is addressing."Hmmm, this is where I get confused. Wouldn't this be helpful in a whole variety of cases, especially if you're saying that tactile imagination can be a part of visualization? For example, my original example of the Middle Pillar. Couldn't I try to physically feel the energy descending instead of trying to actually see the energy descending in my mind's eye? Or would that not work? Am I explaining that right? Like, we talked about me being able to move energy once I feel it... Could I feel the energy sensations on the top of my head for Kether, and then feel the energy descending to my throat for Da'ath?"
You seem to still be confusing "astral visualization" with "seeing". Astral visualization is using astral cognates of all of your physical senses (and, potentially, non-physical senses) on the astral plane. Once you get really adept at it, you might find that as you perform the Middle Pillar exercise you see, smell, feel, hear, and taste every sphere on the pillar and every ring of energy that you create. You might even find that you start experiencing other sensory experiences that can't easily be categorized under those five headings that you're used to. This is all "astral visualization"
The technique that you are describing as "tactile imagining" isn't this. The technique you are describing is a method of focused attention as a way to train your mind to feel tactile sensations in the absence of external stimuli. As such, it is a subset of dharana training... as far as I can tell.
From what I can glean from Bruce's wikipedia page, he seems to be employing it as a method of focusing attention on one specific part of the physical body so that, by imaginatively moving the sensation outside of the physical body, the astral body follows along. Seems a valid hypothesis. Having never experimented with it myself, I can't comment on its effectiveness in practice.
"Maybe it would help if I was more specific with what I wanted to do with this. Basically, I've been frustrated that my rituals don't seem to be very powerful. I have a fair bit memorized, but I'm not getting much out of it. Yesterday I did a fire invoking ritual that involved an LBRP, Middle Pillar, Star Sapphire, SIRP, drawing down energy from the planes, prayers, invocations, enochian calls, etc. Everything was by memory except the enochian calls and some of the prayers. Despite memorizing all of this and performing it properly, I didn't really feel there are many results. I feel a bit charged after, very clean, peaceful, etc., but not much more. "
Wow, that's a lot! And all of this from someone who considers himself to be pre-Malkuth. I have to ask: Are you able to sit still in asana for an hour without moving? Can you keep your attention focused on one thing for ten minutes with less than a handful of breaks?
"I know to beware the dreaded lust of results, but it just seems strange to me that I'll do, say, the Middle Pillar and I don't feel anything. I say the names, do my best to draw the energy down, circulate it, etc., but I pretty much feel the same way during and after it as if i was saying "peanut butter" instead of El Shaddai and thinking of raisins instead of trying to draw energy down. From what I've read, if I'm doing it successfully, there should be some sort of effect."
Is cannabis legal in your place of domicile? If so, I'd recommend reading Oliver Haddoo's Psychology of Hashish in Equinox I.2 and following his recommendations.
"Maybe I should clarify the reason I made this thread and am asking about this. I want to know if what I'm experiencing actually is energy (and you seem to think that there's an indication it might be, which I'm pleased about) or if I'm just activating nerve endings and really doing nothing of spiritual merit. I have tried the techniques out and found great success with them, but only if the sensations are actually an indication of energy! If they aren't then I'm just deceiving myself, and I'll pour countless hours into doing nothing more than biofeedback. "
Welcome to the life of Scientific Illuminism.
"I know no one can tell me 100% that this will work. But if a couple of advanced practitioners who are familiar with energy try the tactile technique and tell me, "yup, I did the imaginary paintbrush thing up my arm and it brought energy up my arm" that's enough for me to make an informed decision of incorporating this into my practice."
Yup, I did the imaginary paintbrush thing up my arm and it brought energy up my arm.
Has that solved your problems?