Unambiguous LBRP Results?
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Thanks for the input, Z & H.
H: I've definitely gotten the sense that a decent number of people doing the work share your experience of overturning childhood religious patterns, and that the pentagram acts as a pretty effective catalyst for that process. It has pushed me to wonder if that actually may be a pre-requisite for effective use of the traditional western magical path which did, after all, evolve within the patterning of a judeo-christian worldview. If messing around with names of G-d and summoning angels and demons isn't a challenge to ones imprinted notions of spiritual safety, does this Work necessarily become less effective ? (he asks, rhetorically) Or, maybe more to the point, are there possibly more effective ways to challenge a non-judeo-christian imprinted consciousness to change than through judeo-christian derived forms? (also rhetorical)
Z: Thanks for the clear description. They're so hard to come by and it really helps to get clear examples from those who have already gotten there to act as guideposts and checkpoints. In this case, that description pretty closely describes experiences I've had but that I've just attributed to my own effort of imagination -- and/or the presence of various chemical assistants in the system -- rather than something "magical" that was happening to me. I mean, intentional focus of a mind on THC does feel pretty "magical", but that happens no matter what the intention is: the LRP certainly isn't special (for me, at least) in that regard. I think Hermitas is probably on to something when he says that I might be "more skeptical/logical" in that, while I find the imagery of placement at the crossroads of the QC to be nice and shiny, I've never really found it to be an alteration of consciousness. It's always just been something that I'm consciously/actively placing on myself because that's what the instructions say to do.
I've read/heard that the goal is essentially being able to induce at will the sort of altered consciousness one experiences through the use of certain chemical assistants, so this does make sense. I guess I just assumed that, after three years of regular practice, I would feel by this point that it was actually a necessary part of my day rather than just something I'm still doing, hoping that one day it will produce results at some future saturation point.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"What is this "unambiguous sense that there is such a thing as magick"? What might one look out for to tick that box? Does anybody have any specific experiences that they can point to in this context that has given them the sense of entering the Twilight Zone?"
93,
Haha. Definitely unambiguous.
One interesting "unambiguous" phenomenon that I experienced was repeated lucid dreams that seemed to last hours. Honestly, when I first took my Oath, it was like a bomb went off. My way of being incredibly analytic and skeptical took a big hit with the first astral journey.
It was unwilled (or, perhaps, unconsciously willed) and downright scary. These episodes went on pretty aggressively for the first 6 months of Probation, slowly becoming less aggressive as issues were dealt with. From what I experienced, we have an energetic body that begins to shed malignant entities as the aura is cleansed and it isn't that easy sometimes. I would sometimes see "substances in the air" as things were released in relation to that. Quite clearly in fact. It's not just the "new kid on the block" - it is the older entities not being able to feed and influence a particular energetic body as easily anymore. They don't like competition when it comes to your will.
I suppose the particular box that was ticked was signing the formal Oath under a Neophyte, choosing a magickal Name, and the Star Ruby for about three days, before I started to experience the Twilight Zoney stuff. Had to back off of the Star Ruby for a few weeks in the very beginning until I regained my composure, just isolating my use to the beginning of the ritual...maybe I'll repost some of the original letters during that freak out time.
Correspondence from another's training can sometimes hinder another's growth, though. In the way that it can "suggest" to others what they should be experiencing, and they will look for it, which is just a mess when it comes to students experiencing the genuine article. Which is kind of what I think Jim was alluding to when he said something like "just figuring it out as you go is part of it" when training with the Pentagram rituals. Solve ambulando.
Twilight Zoney in the way that I would also wake up in the Sign of Harpocrates often after one of these episodes. I know it all sounds a little kooky, but it made a believer out of me.
It was also helpful to have a mentor, but that is also part of the reason the experiences are so powerful.
Once you come in contact with the current in a legit way, it is unmistakable.Agree with Jim 100%
93 93/93,
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Hey there 639, good to hear from you!
And thanks for the detailed response, greatly appreciated. I do recognize the potential danger in what you describe about searching for correspondence from another's experience, which is one of the main reasons I've held off on seeking it for so long, but there is also some value in getting a real sense of what level of experience others are going through in order to gauge one's own.
A question: Were you practicing the LBRP or anything like it prior to your Probationer Oath? If so, were there "results" that you could attribute to the ritual prior to officially joining the A.'.A.'.?
I ask because I also experienced what I would call noticeable changes in my life after taking the oath. Though not identical to yours in nature, they were certainly impressive enough to my own Path for me to label them as legitimate "results" of signing that paper. They don't, however, seem to be connected to the LBRP itself nor would I necessarily label them as unambiguously magical.
i.e. When I started practicing the LBRP on my own, years ago, it provided a structure on which I was able to build a real discipline of Work, but nothing more "magical" than, say, signing up for a tri-weekly gym class would have provided the structure on which to build body-work discipline.
Proceeding, at a later date, to perform the LBRP under the guidance of formal training by an experienced mentor didn't really alter that. No astral entities or new kid on the block experiences at any point during these first two phases. [This, of course, begs the question: Was the formal training and/or mentor legitimately connected with the current? And/or were they the right mentor/training for me personally?]
After taking the 0=0 Oath, my life was thoroughly reorganized in a way that was unmistakably abrupt and unbalancing, but still no seeming connection to the LBRP. There just doesn't seem to be a different quality to my Work whether I perform one or not.I realize that, in treating spiritual matters scientifically, any data is good data... but damn, it's frustrating to hear that a particular experiment gives unambiguous results to others and not be able to replicate those results in ones own lab.
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Nice to hear from you as well.
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"A question: Were you practicing the LBRP or anything like it prior to your Probationer Oath? If so, were there "results" that you could attribute to the ritual prior to officially joining the A.'.A.'.? "
Nothing before. Just to be clear, I exclusively used XXV, not the LBRP. IMO there is an important distinction.
@Gnosomai Emauton said
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i.e. When I started practicing the LBRP on my own, years ago, it provided a structure on which I was able to build a real discipline of Work, but nothing more "magical" than, say, signing up for a tri-weekly gym class would have provided the structure on which to build body-work discipline.
Proceeding, at a later date, to perform the LBRP under the guidance of formal training by an experienced mentor didn't really alter that. No astral entities or new kid on the block experiences at any point during these first two phases. [This, of course, begs the question: Was the formal training and/or mentor legitimately connected with the current? And/or were they the right mentor/training for me personally?]
After taking the 0=0 Oath, my life was thoroughly reorganized in a way that was unmistakably abrupt and unbalancing, but still no seeming connection to the LBRP. There just doesn't seem to be a different quality to my Work whether I perform one or not.I realize that, in treating spiritual matters scientifically, any data is good data... but damn, it's frustrating to hear that a particular experiment gives unambiguous results to others and not be able to replicate those results in ones own lab."
I could see how this would be frustrating. I can't comment as to the effectiveness of someone else's mentor - I can say that a good mentor utilizes many other means of working with the student that is not necessarily perceived by the student. My mentor is well-versed in many magical techniques - egregores and watchers are part of the skills. There is more out there than meets the eye from what I've directly experienced.
Also, for me, I needed a mentor that was very aggressive (and played the petty tyrant at times) with my intellectual death grip and other "control issues" that I had, causing me to learn how to suspend disbelief in a more efficient way.
I have to mention: expecting results, wanting to "see" certain things happen, making a "pre-fab" cabalistic storyline, etc. were all issues that stemmed from over-intellectualization, which hindered my "vision" terribly. Letting go of this is part and parcel to touching other consciousnesses that are out there.
A lineage is only as good as its Adepts, man. That's all I can say. There are those that want to make magick an extremely intellectual/psychological pursuit. That's cool. Do what thou wilt.
But there is MORE to see and learn. Just throwing that comment out there for the rationalists.
I don't consider my initial experiences to be something "controlled." They couldn't quite be classified as dreaming or a true astral vision. But they felt real AF. In any event, since they weren't willed, they were undesirable; but I think necessary for me at the time. I see the good and the bad in them. That being said, I wouldn't wish them on anybody. Also, I came from a pretty religious upbringing - I feel that I had many fear-complexes (demons) that needed to be sorted...that was also a factor. So hard to look at all the variables that produce the specific results in one person or another, since everybody's experiences are vastly different. All we can do is keep experimenting. As one gets further along, the markers and milestones all lead to the same place...and that's all that really matters.
Quick questions: how are your concentration levels? How is your asana practice? How about your Liber "O" training?
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"I can't comment as to the effectiveness of someone else's mentor - I can say that a good mentor utilizes many other means of working with the student that is not necessarily perceived by the student. My mentor is well-versed in many magical techniques - egregores and watchers are part of the skills. There is more out there than meets the eye from what I've directly experienced. "
Yep, I hear that.
"I have to mention: expecting results, wanting to "see" certain things happen, making a "pre-fab" cabalistic storyline, etc. were all issues that stemmed from over-intellectualization, which hindered my "vision" terribly. Letting go of this is part and parcel to touching other consciousnesses that are out there."
It's interesting, thoughts along these lines have been plaguing me recently. Like, there are these instructions that, in drawing the pentagrams, they should be seen drawn in light so powerful that, were someone with sufficient vision nearby, they would be able to see them. So that gives me a very clear expectation of what I should be "seeing". Yet I wonder if, by trying to "see" that every time I perform this, am I putting too much active work into something that needs me to refrain from active work? Am I perhaps adding strain where I should be letting go? Something to work with, certainly.
"A lineage is only as good as its Adepts, man. That's all I can say. There are those that want to make magick an extremely intellectual/psychological pursuit. That's cool. Do what thou wilt.
But there is MORE to see and learn. Just throwing that comment out there for the rationalists.
"I hear this one loud and clear.
"Also, I came from a pretty religious upbringing - I feel that I had many fear-complexes (demons) that needed to be sorted...that was also a factor. "
This is certainly a data point that I've been noticing pop up with some frequency in reports of success. It's things like these that make me wish more practicing occultists took seriously the idea that we are acting as scientists, gathering data on ourselves, but in ways that inform the Work generally. If enough magical records were correlated, would it show that some sort of early-childhood religious imprinting was a precondition for these sorts of "unambiguous results"? My small data pool points in that direction, but I don't have nearly enough data to trust that there is correlation.
"So hard to look at all the variables that produce the specific results in one person or another, since everybody's experiences are vastly different. All we can do is keep experimenting. As one gets further along, the markers and milestones all lead to the same place...and that's all that really matters."
Yep, this is what's slowly starting to come into focus for me since taking the oath. My attempts to fit my work into a specific Golden Dawn inspired structure might not have been the best choice for my own needs. Thinking that the LBRP necessarily produces unambiguous results might be specific to those who do have success on that particular path. It seems to me that this is likely what was at the heart of the A.'.A.'. not prescribing the Work of the Probationer but allowing the aspirant to come at the Path from whichever direction s/he felt most drawn.
Or... perhaps this is just my intellect rebelling against exactly the sort of Work that it needs and I just need to keep grinding away at it for another decade or so before anything will present itself to me as a "result", and stopping anytime before then will prevent me from making any progress. Tough to say, right?
"Quick questions: how are your concentration levels?"
Fair, but not as good as they need to be. Working on this is the core of my daily practice at the moment.
"How is your asana practice? "
Solid. I've got conscious control over my physical body but transitioning from that into a sense of "body-off" to let go of the physical only happens occasionally and without much control.
"How about your Liber "O" training?"
Sections 1 and 2 are solid. The "imagination" side of 3 is solid, the complete identification with the God less so: occasional, as with body-off. Section 4 is what this whole thread is about so... solid insofar as it goes but my results don't correlate with what I've been led to expect they should be. Sections 5 & 6 have been attempted here and there but, until I get 3 & 4 squared away, I don't really expect much more to come of them.
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@Gnosomai Emauton said
"It's interesting, thoughts along these lines have been plaguing me recently. Like, there are these instructions that, in drawing the pentagrams, they should be seen drawn in light so powerful that, were someone with sufficient vision nearby, they would be able to see them. So that gives me a very clear expectation of what I should be "seeing". Yet I wonder if, by trying to "see" that every time I perform this, am I putting too much active work into something that needs me to refrain from active work? Am I perhaps adding strain where I should be letting go? Something to work with, certainly."
It sounds like you think that the intellect is causing the issue here. I agree with you. A few suggestions:
- Where the intellect is overbearing in ritual, getting excited about the ritual is more important than the ritual itself. This is a really important aspect when it comes to suspension of disbelief. One's own means of gaining energized enthusiasm is more powerful than any one else's uninspired ritual.
- Seeing pentagrams don't involve "seeing" with physical eye exactly. Don't worry about that. Regardless of your sight on the physical plane, allow yourself to feel that it is being inherently created and recreated in the astral.
- The LBRP is not the goal here. Beyond practice, it is a preliminary to the working that comes after. Keep it in context and just get through it - the idea of working on it for years and years, just to get it right, sounds to me like you need to allow the perfectionist aspects of your personality to take a backseat. In fact, in ritual, the whole intellect needs to take a backseat. So what if it is messy? The best connection is the messiest sometimes.
Crowley one time recited some weird folk tune to get the desired energetic enthusiasm levels. By any means necessary.
EDIT: I had to look it up - it wasn't a weird folk tune, it was an old Christian hymn. Here is a particularly riveting version:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sLEgQfsRMY
I had to add the tune to illustrate how even something completely ridiculous can be effective. Also the video broke the smh meter for me
@Gnosomai Emauton said
"This is certainly a data point that I've been noticing pop up with some frequency in reports of success. It's things like these that make me wish more practicing occultists took seriously the idea that we are acting as scientists, gathering data on ourselves, but in ways that inform the Work generally. If enough magical records were correlated, would it show that some sort of early-childhood religious imprinting was a precondition for these sorts of "unambiguous results"? My small data pool points in that direction, but I don't have nearly enough data to trust that there is correlation."
I have theories as to why this is. Generally religious backgrounds involve worship which is basically coitus with an egregore in an energetic way. Depending on the frequency and duration of the relationship, there can be varying degrees of "fireworks" when the egregore is no longer being fed from the energy being afforded to it.
note: I'm switching between spirit models and energetic models intentionally, making a point to stay away from intellectual/psychological models.
@Gnosomai Emauton said
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Fair, but not as good as they need to be. Working on this is the core of my daily practice at the moment.
"It is a constant evolution for sure...for everyone.
"How is your asana practice?
@Gnosomai Emauton said
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Solid. I've got conscious control over my physical body but transitioning from that into a sense of "body-off" to let go of the physical only happens occasionally and without much control.
""
Before moving on to Liber "O", I'd like to talk about this first if that's ok. I have my ideas of what could be hindrances (I suspect that Dharana hasn't been worked with in your Asana practice), but I'd like to ask about your data first.
What do you mean by "body-off?"
How long is your Asana practice?
How many breaks and what kind of breaks from the list below?"Firstly, physical sensations; these should have been overcome by Asana.
Secondly, breaks that seem to be indicated by events immediately preceding the meditation: their activity becomes tremendous. Only by this practice does one understand how much is really observed by the senses without the mind becoming conscious of it.
Thirdly, there is a class of break partaking of the nature of reverie or 'day-dreaming.' These are very insidious-one may go on for a long time without realising that one has wandered at all.
Fourthly, we get a very high class of break, which is a sort of abberation of the control itself. You think, 'How well I am doing it!' or perhaps that it would be rather a good idea if you were on a desert island, or if you were in a sound-proof house, or if you were sitting by a waterfall. But these are only trifling variations from the vigilance itself.
A fifth class of break seems to have no discoverable source in the mind-such might even take the form of actual hallucination, usually auditory. Of course, such hallucinations are infrequent, and are recognised for what they are. Otherwise the student had better see a doctor. The usual kind consists of odd sentences, or fragments of sentences, which are quite distinctly heard in a recognisable human voice, not the student's own voice, or that of anyone he knows. A similar phenomenon is observed by wireless operators, who call such messages 'atmospherics.'
There is a further kind of break, which is the desired result itself." -
@Frater 639 said
"1. Where the intellect is overbearing in ritual, getting excited about the ritual is more important than the ritual itself. This is a really important aspect when it comes to suspension of disbelief. One's own means of gaining energized enthusiasm is more powerful than any one else's uninspired ritual."
This is certainly what my gut has told me all along, but then quotes like the one that started this thread pop up from individuals whose record of experience I value, and I start to question that gut feeling. I should probably just stop questioning my gut and follow it 'cause it does, 9 times out of 10, know what's what with the world.
I appreciate the rest of your post and will definitely take it all into my own practice, but rather than send the thread sideways into the specifics of my general practice, I think I'll stop here in the interest of keeping it on-topic to the specific questions of the OP regarding unambiguous results inherent in learning the LBRP.
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@Frater 639 said
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- Where the intellect is overbearing in ritual, getting excited about the ritual is more important than the ritual itself. This is a really important aspect when it comes to suspension of disbelief. One's own means of gaining energized enthusiasm is more powerful than any one else's uninspired ritual.
Crowley one time recited some weird folk tune to get the desired energetic enthusiasm levels. By any means necessary.
"I must throw my wise Probabtioner 2 cents in here.
I spent years doing the LBRP and it was always along the lines of -can imagine them, can feel something is happening - it's getting better !!
It wasn't. it stayed at the same 'meh' level for years.
Middle Pillar? Same .
Instead of performing it twice a day, I mainly did it once a day but missed days here and there. I also slacked off by not physically doing it when tired but mentally doing it. And sometimes missed whole weaks.
This wasn't all the time but it happened often enough to see easily enough that I was being casual about the whole thing - and when I proved I was casual about the whole thing - nothing was going to happen. Downward spiral.I did no devotional practice. I did Resh but I did it with 'what can I get out of this technique?' self centeredness.
There was no real connection to my Angel other than ' What experiences will this being give to me?' 'When do I get enlightened??' - when I boiled it right down that's what I was doing.
So with everything going downhill I searched elsewhere.Now -the LRP 's I've just performed -
The pentagrams were bright and vivid. I could see them with my eyes open or closed.
Charging the Pentagrams - White/Clear energy rushed from my hands -I felt my entire being focused and joining with the pentagram to such an extent I felt part of me extend with the symbol to the end of the universe. Almost like a vortex sucking me into the pentagram that simply rushed outside the walls of the temple at a phenomenal and unbreakable speed. I heard the echo of my vibration rush back - not loud to the physical ear but still audible. Astrally it was loud.
Energised beyond what I thought was possible by this I did the other three pents and charges like a roaring angel - speeding up to a charging rhythm. Something clicked internally that overode the ego control.
I certainly would feel embarrassed beyond belief if I tried to do this. I'm self conscious because I can be a good actor... Virgo's ...
The Archangels - all the Sephira were glowing and had visible and tangible energy flooding out of them. The Archangels had both - for some reason - their astral image of standing in space which I normally use - and then they seemed to separate from their static image and become , well almost transparent figures standing in the circle, I couldn't quite make out any details but I saw shapes almost trying to merge in my mind with the usual images.The Hexagrams are clearly visible and of huge scope, clear to the end of my universal column - one also formed inside the chest.
The feelings of cleanliness and Holiness were clearly distinguishable .
Oh and also when I was in asana I saw a Hawk fly straight through the temple - my eyes were open too. It actually made me start with a 'what the ...'Getting to the scientific points.
The differences I put down to frequency of performance and devotional attitude/practice - because they are the only things that have changed. (Of course it could mean I've finally cleared the Aphophis phase of probationer too).
Edit - Wait - two other things that have changed are , during Resh I've been taking on the God Forms of the God invoked and I've been performing the Invoking Pentagram ritual .As far as devotion - thanks to my experiences in Advaita I understand the purpose and feelings of Bhakti. Funnily enough it was probably growing up as a Catholic and being vaguely embarressed about it all (while I was doing your , so to speak time-served ) that but a bolt on the door of devotion.
Resh is now a devotional practice. Sitting is a devotional practice . The LBRP is a devotional practice. Breathing is a ... etc
By starting to see joy and peace and love and ecstasy is a two way energetic conversation with the angel I realise he is responsible for my joys and I can tickle Him too. I have a music list that symbolises union on a deep level and play that before ritual. All sorts of memories of joy that I have I bring to ritual and K&C of Him now,
It's all so different to the Apophis stage It's hard to believe it's the same path. It's like a dry instructional tome has turned into a World Festival of amazement and cool tunes.Er, I guess basically it comes down to er inflaming something something and invoking something something.
Wish someone would have mentioned this before somewhere. -
Thank you for that, Anchorite. Extremely helpful on all points.
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Oh Im really glad!
I'd just thought of something historically relevant . When I was taking driving lessons I basically coasted from lesson 10 to lesson 17. I didn't get better no matter how often I was in the drivers seat. I started feeling that he'd never put me in for the test, that it was a scam, that I wasn't going to learn anything new. Maybe I should go for compressed driving lessons? A new instructor?
And then one night before the next lesson while cursing everything I thought. 'Why don't you put some bloody effort in?'
Next day after the lesson he put me in for the test.
IAO.
I get the feeling I've missed that lesson a lot